Was DBS's best run from the U6 up to Zamasu?

[Desassina]

Or anything prior to the recruitment arc and the tournament of power? This series having turned into a battle royale reminds me of why I didn't like the end of Dragon Ball as a tournament (Piccolo Jr.): there's no journey, no real stakes, but only the characters closing their arcs, if they haven't already, and it's suffering from the same setting. The mood is simply not Dragon Ball, but the studios going at it on an episode by episode basis, as if Toriyama lost to a writers and animators' room. There's still hope for Toyotaro's manga and its depiction, or the movie, perhaps, but as a sign that it ends, because I can't take it anymore. Only Lunch's appearance could save it

[Chuquita]

Half of dbs is going to be this crazy tournament and it doesn't feel fair because they could've done so much more with these last 60 or so episodes. Instead of cameos of these universes let's have arcs that are set there. Let's explore! But no, apparently.

The ToP's been an uneven roller coaster, imo. Even with how the Gokû Black arc fell apart at the tail end at least it didn't overstay its welcome. At least Toei knew better to keep its movie retellings to a single cour each. The Champa arc didn't have weird stamina recovery issues or guards being let down all over the place.


One of the few good things about the ToP being such a slog is the fact that it's let me down easy so the knowledge of Super ending isn't as hard of a blow as it would've been if it happened at the end of the Gokû Black arc. Yeah I want to know how the ToP ends, but man is it missing cohesiveness and clarity. I'd love to know what was going on behind the scenes of this arc.

[sintzu]

Half of dbs is going to be this crazy tournament and it doesn't feel fair because they could've done so much more with these last 60 or so episodes.

And half of the other part is movie retellings and filler. The original DB anime without the filler is 133 episodes yet it did sooooooo much more with its time than Super did.

I think the biggest issue with Super is the planning and structure, something I'll get more into once it's over as there'll most likely be a topic about our thoughts on Super as a whole.

[Chuquita]

Half of dbs is going to be this crazy tournament and it doesn't feel fair because they could've done so much more with these last 60 or so episodes.

And half of the other part is movie retellings and filler. The original DB anime without the filler is 133 episodes yet it did sooooooo much more with its time than Super did.

I think the biggest issue with Super is the planning and structure, something I'll get more into once it's over as there'll most likely be a topic about our thoughts on Super as a whole.

I wouldn't call the Champa or Gokû Black arcs filler. Jelly Vegeta sure was filler though. I agree on the other points. The planning and structure has been so hodge podge for this series that I think it's a good decision to put it on hiatus. Let them regroup, give the staff time to reorganize.

I don't regret following Super, and I've sure enjoyed it more than GT, but wow does it have problems that I think wouldn't have been there had they not rushed pre production.

[sintzu]

I wouldn't call the Champa or Gokû Black arcs filler.

The planning and structure has been so hodge podge for this series that I think it's a good decision to put it on hiatus.

I don't regret following Super, and I've sure enjoyed it more than GT.

it has problems that wouldn't have been there had they not rushed pre production.

I'm talking about everything else. Those 2 arcs represent 35 episodes out of those 76 which is less than half. There's so much more they could've done with those 40 episodes instead of what they did. We could've gotten 2-3 full arcs.

They need one man running the show, not 10 each with a completely different idea. The reaosn the manga's structure flows naturally is because of the limited number of hands working on it. I'm pretty sure the manga's tournament won't be anywhere near as messy as the anime's version.

Super is without a doubt a better product than GT and has giving me countless hours of enjoyment.

Rushing it that way was a huge mistake but now that they have time to work on a new one we can hope they won't make the same mistakes as not only did it hurt the show's quality but also the company's $$$$ as it cost them more than their other shows.

[SuperCyan2]

My personal favorite part of Super was the Duplicate Vegeta mini arc but that's also because Brian Drummond voiced Duplicate Vegeta. Still disappointed FUNimation didn't do the same for the Goku Black arc and hire Peter Kelamis, oh well.

[Lord Beerus]

I'd say Dragon Ball Super's best run of episodes was from 70 to 110. All the episodes in that period ranged from decent to excellent for varying reasons.

[Forte224]

I'd say Dragon Ball Super's best run of episodes was from 70 to 110. All the episodes in that period ranged from decent to excellent for varying reasons.

I can agree to that. The pre ToP episodes were a great mix of slice of life, character development, and action. Only episode that was kind of a stinker was Tenshinhan's episode. Everything else was good. And 70 is the baseball episode, yeah? I feel like even people that avoid Super should go watch that one. It was way too much fun.

Some of the ToP stuff was really good and others not so much. 110 was really awesome though. Even my friends that aren't that big into Dragon Ball have watched that one.

[Doctor.]

Super's best episodes were from #47 to #56 in the Black arc, before things got excessively dumb and everything started crumbling. Alternatively, from #69 to #82, which covers the majority of the post-Black 'filler' and the Zen Exhibition. The U6 tournament was boring and the ToP is a disaster.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

The best run of SUPER has been from #47 to #110 (peaking on the last 5 or so episodes of Future Trunks Arc), most episodes in that stretch were at worst superficially entertaining with a bunch of good/really good/incredible episodes in the mix.

[Lord Beerus]

The best run of SUPER has been from #47 to #110 (peaking on the last 5 or so episodes of Future Trunks Arc), most episodes in that stretch were at worst superficially entertaining with a bunch of good/really good/incredible episodes in the mix.

I legit had that opinion for quite a while. But unfortunately the final third of the Future Trunks arc hasn't been holding up well whenever I rewatch it. I still like the ending, but damn, there is a lot of bullshit, albeit sometimes cool bullshit, that goes on from #61 to #67 that I just can't ignore. And I say this as someone who loved the Future Trunks arc so fucking much in the first viewing.

[precita]

It's actually hard to believe Super has 131 episodes, it feels like it's half the length it actually is for some reason. Even removing the movie adaptions the series still has 100 something episodes.

So why do I feel like Super is only around 70-80 eps long? It feels a lot shorter than it actually is.

[Zephyr]

I don't think it's really had any good "runs". Instead, it's had really standout episodes scattered about. 67, 110, and 116 come to mind.

[Dbzfan94]

My personal favorite part of Super was the Duplicate Vegeta mini arc but that's also because Brian Drummond voiced Duplicate Vegeta. Still disappointed FUNimation didn't do the same for the Goku Black arc and hire Peter Kelamis, oh well.

Black basically is Goku though. Unlike how Copy Vegeta isn't Vegeta

[Kunzait_83]

Or anything prior to the recruitment arc and the tournament of power? This series having turned into a battle royale reminds me of why I didn't like the end of Dragon Ball as a tournament (Piccolo Jr.): there's no journey, no real stakes, but only the characters closing their arcs, if they haven't already, and it's suffering from the same setting. The mood is simply not Dragon Ball, but the studios going at it on an episode by episode basis, as if Toriyama lost to a writers and animators' room. There's still hope for Toyotaro's manga and its depiction, or the movie, perhaps, but as a sign that it ends, because I can't take it anymore. Only Lunch's appearance could save it

This immediately lost me with throwing the 23rd Budokai under the bus, which I maintain is probably still the single all time, all around best arc in all of Dragon Ball, period.

But even beyond that, there is SO MUCH I disagree with in this I don't even know where to begin.

I can't stand the over-literalization of terms like "journey" and "stakes". A journey in a story doesn't just mean "characters traveling and exploring new locales". A journey can be purely character-based. Tenshinhan goes through an incredible journey for example in the 22nd Budokai as a character. He has his entire worldview as a martial artist challenged several times and undergoes a big epiphany which radically alters and informs his character forever going forward. Following that sort of character progression (simple and basic though it is) is just one of the many joys of that particular arc.

Same thing with the idea of "stakes". Stakes doesn't simply mean something along the lines of "the fate of the world/universe has to be at stake". First of all, with the Tournament of Power the fate of the universe actually kinda IS at stake. Secondly, even if it weren't, that hardly means that a tournament arc cannot carry deep PERSONAL stakes for a character. I know this is something that people are probably sick and tired of hearing me go on about on here, but its hard to stop when it keeps creeping into these sorts of discussions: these characters are martial artists and DB is a martial arts series.

Competition is a HUGE fundamental theme that's part of the heart and soul of it, and competition between these martial artist characters means EVERYTHING to them. You're supposed to care about Goku winning a tournament championship and beating his overwhelmingly skilled opponent because Goku himself and the other characters care about it, because the whole point of the series and of these characters is improving their skills as fighters via direct competition with one another. This theme runs throughout even most of the non-tournament arcs, because its at the core nature of everything the series embodies.

Does that mean that I don't like non-tournament arcs? Not at all. What I'm saying is that there are all kinds of cool stories you can tell within the genre framework that Dragon Ball works within. Tournaments are a very notable one though, and while I can understand not wanting to rely on them too heavily at the expense of other stories, I very much don't like the implication in this post (and other posts I've read alone these lines) that tournament arcs are innately inferior to other stories (where characters get to jet around the world or universe and have a mustache twirling villain that's threatening people for them to fight) and that tournament arcs are where "nothing happens".

PLENTY can (and does) happen in a tournament arc: all three Budokai stories in original Dragon Ball contain IMMENSE amounts of character development and progression, as well as even some choice bits of introducing new important concepts and expanding on "lore", to say nothing of some of DB's all time series and character-defining fights as well. A tournament arc, when done well, can in many ways distill these characters down to their very basic fundamentals and show them growing and changing in some fairly profound ways (as both fighters and as characters, which for many of them is almost one and the same thing). Wanting for more story variety than JUST strings of tournament arcs is one thing, and I can certainly get behind that notion: saying though that tournament arcs are innately inferior to other kinds of stories because "nothing of consequence goes on in them" is just flagrantly and objectively incorrect on SO many levels.

This isn't even a defense of the Tournament of Power in and of itself per se: there's a LOT about it that I dislike and can pick apart. As a tournament arc, its hardly DB's best by any stretch of the imagination, and while it does contain a few cool concepts and ideas, its also rife with many of the same massive, crippling problems that have been hallmarks of Super throughout its entire run (not just its two major tournament stories).

But what I WILL defend is the notion of DB having a massive, epic tournament-style storyline in and of itself. Calling BS on a DB series just for engaging at all in one of both it and its genre's most quintessential types of storylines is to me as ridiculous as when some people actually ask "Why does there have to be so much emphasis on fighting in this? Can't we get more episodes dedicated solely to shopping trips and BBQs?" and whatnot. At a certain point, when questions like these get asked, I end up having to question why the person asking them is even here in the first place and not looking instead in one of countless other anime (or non-anime) series out there that would likely much better suit their interests.

Super already went through a heavily and decidedly non-Tournament type of story arc prior to the Tournament of Power with Zamasu and Goku Black. I hardly see the issue with it turning toward a tournament after a story like that. We can get into the particulars of how its all been executed (which again, I have immense, immense problems with myself). But the implication behind a lot of these kinds of complaints generally seems to be "I want this to be a story about traveling and exploration while fighting and saving the Earth and protecting innocent people from mustache twirling supervillains". A superhero action/adventure story in other words. Which... DB never, ever was or came close to being.

This isn't the Asian Fantastic Four or the Japanese Avengers, nor has it ever had the slightest implication ever to have been that. This is and always has been a mystical Chinese-style kung fu fairytale. In these stories, characters can indeed travel across strange and wondrously exotic lands: but its generally to find worthy opponents and test their skills against them to better master their fighting arts. Sometimes innocent people are helped as a consequence of this, other times not. That's never really (or fairly irregularly) the central focus. Other times though, characters merely engage in rivalries with other martial arts clans or schools or sects. This can in many cases limit the setting into a more singular location, which can (and often does) include a tournament ground, or a martial arts school, or something along those lines.

What matters is, are the characters still growing and changing through their fighting and mastery of their craft? Are they still coming up against interesting and unique and worthy opponents who push and test the boundaries of their skills? Are there interesting new techniques or mythological lore and suchlike being introduced and/or explored? Stuff like the setting of course definitely still matters as well: but no story in general, martial arts or otherwise, is inherently worse off for limiting its setting into one location, so long as its still doing a lot of interesting things with it.

Again, seeing "stakes" as meaning only something along the lines of "gotta save the universe from this evil, twisted supervillain" is INCREDIBLY narrow and limiting in what that term can and does embody. Its all the more silly in the case of the TOP because in this tournament the fate of the universe IS at stake. But again even if it wasn't, that's just such a silly view to perceive the concept of "stakes" through. Stakes can and many times are often FAR more personal than that. If a character is well crafted enough, you care about what the character cares about. If he or she cares about something that is inherently personal to them (revenge, personal honor or glory, laying a past mistake to rest, reclaiming a lost object of sentimental value, finding and reconnecting with an estranged loved one, etc) then if the story handles it well enough, you by consequence end up caring as well. The idea that "I can only care if a whole bunch of people's lives are on the line" is incredibly juvenile and silly not to mention grossly limiting.

Its one thing if the story DOESN'T handle these things well, and you don't end up caring at all: but that's COMPLETELY different from the idea that "there are no stakes at all because they're too personal or abstract for me to get behind". The stakes ARE indeed there: you're just not invested in them either because the story itself is doing a poor job at conveying them, or you have a set limited concept of what "stakes" can entail. Or maybe both.

[ABED]

To add a little to Kunzait's point, even with fate of the universe stakes, you still need to personalize them. Putting the Earth at stake isn't enough to make people care. The audience doesn't typically care that much about inhabitants they haven't met. We do care about the characters we know and love. Nappa destroying an entire city isn't as emotionally charged as him killing Piccolo.

[Cetra]

I would have prefered if the tournament of power happened and THEN Zamasu would do something as a result of it, being the final villain but well ... and yes, I guess from late U7/U6 to the finale of Zamasu was the best run

[Desassina]

Well, there's always some disagreement, and sympathy towards long posts. I guess... The biggest example of over analyzation is when it comes to using Tenshinhan's tournament as an argument. I didn't mention it, hence (Piccolo Jr.), whose tournament was different at the end of Dragon Ball. Tenshinhan had come to terms with himself in Piccolo Daimao's arc, his face off against Tao Pai Pai was in need of Chiaotzu to be in danger (again) for it to have some meaning (heck, even Dragon Ball Movie 3 showed a better send off of Ten's master), and Roshi didn't participate to give their match a proper ending. So what does this boil down to? Putting things out of context to argue for the sake of it. Tenshinhan's tournament was deep and fun in terms of character. Piccolo Jr. was only fan service at that point. The latter was the one that I mentioned. The former was the one that you decided to bring up to appeal to a higher level of Dragon Ball understanding. By all means have it. Jesus...

[SuperCyan2]

Black basically is Goku though. Unlike how Copy Vegeta isn't Vegeta

True but it'd be just an excuse for FUNi to go all fanboy by including another dub voice of Gokû.