What if there was no Z Split?

[Dragon Sponge]

Let say Akira Toriyama was against the idea of renaming the anime adaption of his manga work and Toei had simply to obey. The changes in leadership would still happen though, and the new Producers would still handle the Series the same way they did in reality. The Z Episodes 1-291 would then officially be known as Episodes 154-444 and the Z Movies would still exist with Takao Koyama in the team, just known as Dragon Ball Movies 4-16. Chala Head Chala & We got Power would still exist, just without the letter Z or any alusions to it. We were Angels would also still happen but its questionable if Zenkai Power would still be made, since its name seems to be an alusion to the new name the anime got. But it could still exist with a different name though. Dragon Ball GT would mostlikely still be made, and since its an actual anime sequel and no adaption of the manga anymore, it would still get its own name.

But what would happen after the original run of the Franchise ended, how would a united Dragon Ball anime be handled outside of Japan? Especially how would Funimation handle the Series without having the abillity to skip to the Saiyan Arc after Episode 13? How would it effect the Videogames like the Budokai & Tenkaichi Series and how would the Franchise be viewed by the fandom & public?

One thing that would be different for sure would be Kai, since Toei would not be able to skip a quarter of the Story with the DB anime being united, therefore Kai would contain the ealier arcs and be an actual faithful adaption of the manga. They still might have meddled with the soundtrack though.

But what do you guys think, how different would the franchise & fandom be today, if that one marketing stunt didn´t happen back in 1989?

[sintzu]

How would a united Dragon Ball anime be handled outside of Japan ?

Especially how would Funimation handle the Series without having the abillity to skip to the Saiyan Arc ?

How would it effect the Videogames like the Budokai & Tenkaichi Series ?

Kai would contain the ealier arcs and be an actual faithful adaption of the manga.

How would the Franchise be viewed by the fandom & public ? How different would the franchise & fandom be today, if that one marketing stunt didn't happen back in 1989 ?

In countries like America, the show would've been released and shown in the order it was ment to be, there'd be no skipping around.

They'd most likely start at the 23rd Tenkaichi instead of the saiyans.

I don't think it would've happened as 444 episodes is longer than 291 and even then, those 291 didn't make it till the end at first.

I don't think it'd have the "DB is just screaming and powering up" image it does as people would've seen the whole story and known how character driven it was.

DB completely flopped in America because of how bad they handled it so without a saiyan arc to fall back on, it may have ended up like one piece is now, somewhat popular but never able to reach its potential. In terms of Funimation, they most likely wouldn't have lasted or at least not as we know them today without Z as that's what put them on the map. In terms of anime in America, the most likely anime to start the big anime boom would've been Naruto, assuming Viz handled it the same as that was the 2nd big thing after DB so without it there's no reason to beleive it wouldn't be #1.

[Robo4900]

GT would have likely been produced and marketed as 64 further episodes of Dragon Ball, making it a 508-episode show in total.

The fact the show remained with the same title would mean the initial ratings of GT's era would have been better, though not enough to get it renewed for more than 64 episodes.

Funimation would have either given up, or done some redubbing of 1-13 and done more of early DB under Saban.

People would be less ignorant about what DB is, and a little more accepting of GT.

The English dubbing of Dragon Ball would be even more nonsensical to keep track of.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

The English dubbing of Dragon Ball would be even more nonsensical to keep track of.

I would be interested to see how the dubbing side would have worked out. Since Funimation did 13 DB episodes with the BLT dub and 53 with Saban the BLT dub could have gone on another 50 or so episodes to reach the end of the Commander Red saga and then Funi might have switched in house for the Fortuneteller Baba saga onward. We may have got another Frieza saga situation where episodes from that point until the end of the King Piccolo saga were left without a dub by the Canadian cast, but depending on scheduling (which theoretically would have been different if there was no break after the initial 13 episode BLT run) this may or may not have happened. After that, in Ireland, the UK, Netherlands and Canada we might have got a Westwood dub for later parts of original Dragon Ball like the Piccolo Jr saga (which would have been great just for Scott McNeil to do those pivotal moments in the character's story) and then Blue Water sometime into what we now know as the Z portion.

Hard to say which way it could have gone but definitely an interesting what if for a Z-less full Dragon Ball series in another time and place.

[OLKv3]

They tried to start with Dragon Ball in america and it didn't catch on. If the series was never split, I wonder if they'd have ever tried again or just decided that Dragon Ball is a failed attempt in America.

[sintzu]

They tried to start with Dragon Ball in america and it didn't catch on. If the series was never split, I wonder if they'd have ever tried again or just decided that Dragon Ball is a failed attempt in America.

That had more to do with how they did it rather than DB itself so I think they would've given it another chance.

[OLKv3]

They tried to start with Dragon Ball in america and it didn't catch on. If the series was never split, I wonder if they'd have ever tried again or just decided that Dragon Ball is a failed attempt in America.

That had more to do with how they did it rather than DB itself so I think they would've given it another chance.

I wouldn't say that either. In america they both started in early morning syndication
Z got popular. Pilaf arc DB didn't.
Z got popular enough from just the same 60 episodes in syndication that when Cartoon Network finally got the rights to air it they based Toonami all around it, before they even had new episodes
The start of DBZ is just way more accessible to Western kids since it starts with all out action. While the start of DB is pretty much a gag series. I do wonder how popular DB would've been in the West if they started with the Budokai arc

[ABED]

They tried to start with Dragon Ball in america and it didn't catch on. If the series was never split, I wonder if they'd have ever tried again or just decided that Dragon Ball is a failed attempt in America.

That had more to do with how they did it rather than DB itself so I think they would've given it another chance.

I wouldn't say that either. In america they both started in early morning syndication
Z got popular. Pilaf arc DB didn't.
Z got popular enough from just the same 60 episodes in syndication that when Cartoon Network finally got the rights to air it they based Toonami all around it, before they even had new episodes
The start of DBZ is just way more accessible to Western kids since it starts with all out action. While the start of DB is pretty much a gag series. I do wonder how popular DB would've been in the West if they started with the Budokai arc

DB was aired before the target demo woke up.

Do you think kids don't like comedy series?

[OLKv3]

That had more to do with how they did it rather than DB itself so I think they would've given it another chance.

I wouldn't say that either. In america they both started in early morning syndication
Z got popular. Pilaf arc DB didn't.
Z got popular enough from just the same 60 episodes in syndication that when Cartoon Network finally got the rights to air it they based Toonami all around it, before they even had new episodes
The start of DBZ is just way more accessible to Western kids since it starts with all out action. While the start of DB is pretty much a gag series. I do wonder how popular DB would've been in the West if they started with the Budokai arc

DB was aired before the target demo woke up.

Do you think kids don't like comedy series?

Syndicated DBZ aired at the same hours DB used to air when it first came to America. Yet still was better received.
The Pilaf arc did not catch on here

[ABED]

I recall people saying DB came on at 6, maybe even earlier. DBZ came on where I lived no earlier than 7.

Okay, no one is saying the Pilaf arc did catch on, but you're being reductive. That doesn't mean kids don't like comedy and all they want is action. I remember what it was like to be a kid. It took time for DB to catch on even in Japan. The first arc of the manga was almost its last.

[Dragon Sponge]

They'd most likely start at the 23rd Tenkaichi instead of the saiyans.

I don't think it would've happened as 444 episodes is longer than 291 and even then, those 291 didn't make it till the end at first.

I don't think it'd have the "DB is just screaming and powering up" image it does as people would've seen the whole story and known how character driven it was.

DB completely flopped in America because of how bad they handled it so without a saiyan arc to fall back on, it may have ended up like one piece is now, somewhat popular but never able to reach its potential. In terms of Funimation, they most likely wouldn't have lasted or at least not as we know them today without Z as that's what put them on the map. In terms of anime in America, the most likely anime to start the big anime boom would've been Naruto, assuming Viz handled it the same as that was the 2nd big thing after DB so without it there's no reason to beleive it wouldn't be #1.

Probably, but I personally would prefer the 22nd Tenkaichi which would make a good tutorial section in my book. But who knows, without the Saiyan Arc as a clear starting point it might be different from game to game where the Story starts and Tenkaichi 3 would mostlikely cover the whole Series in its Story mode, since you could already make an reenactment of most pre Z Battles with all those characters.

Who knows they might have recut the Son Goku & Red Ribbon Arcs at first, in order to see if their refreshment of the Dragon Ball anime catches on. It would run from 2009 to 2010 and then Toei would make a break. There would be probably popular fandemand to get a Kai version of the later Arcs, and so would Toei cover the Piccolo, Saiyan, Freezer, Cell and Buu Arcs from 2011 to 2015, with Battle of Gods, Resurection of F & Super still happening.

A better overall Image for the Series would be great, also if the public would know the developened the Series did, instead of just being the Action Series from day 1.

I think with the right marketing and good time slots it still could have made big success with the middle & later Arcs of the Series. Also wasen´t it the fault of the censored 4 Kids Dub that One Piece didn´t reached its potencial with the later uncut Funi Dub?

GT would have likely been produced and marketed as 64 further episodes of Dragon Ball, making it a 508-episode show in total.

The fact the show remained with the same title would mean the initial ratings of GT's era would have been better, though not enough to get it renewed for more than 64 episodes.

I think it would look pretty weird if the united DB anime still had 64 additionally filler episodes after the mangas ending point, where not only the Soundtrack is completely different but where also the status quo gets changed, main characters die and where Goku and the Dragon Balls dissapear in the end. I think it would be better if GT would have been marketed as a sequel to the united DB anime, let say under the name "Dragon Ball Grand Tour" and i doubt that it would effect much the ratings. For example when the Z episodes started in Japan, the ratings didn´t got immediately much better. During most of the Saiyan Arc they remained still in the same average league they were during the Piccolo Arc, and only got much better during the end of it.

Funimation would have either given up, or done some redubbing of 1-13 and done more of early DB under Saban.

People would be less ignorant about what DB is, and a little more accepting of GT.

The English dubbing of Dragon Ball would be even more nonsensical to keep track of.

I think they would still eventually redub the censored parts and release an uncut version with the original soundtrack as an option.

The acceptance of the ealier Arcs and its kongfu roots would be the biggist benefit and a more accepted GT would be nice too.

If they dubbed the whole Series in order, then no. If they still skipped to later parts and later returned to the ealier parts, then yeah.

They tried to start with Dragon Ball in america and it didn't catch on. If the series was never split, I wonder if they'd have ever tried again or just decided that Dragon Ball is a failed attempt in America.

That had more to do with how they did it rather than DB itself so I think they would've given it another chance.

I wouldn't say that either. In america they both started in early morning syndication
Z got popular. Pilaf arc DB didn't.
Z got popular enough from just the same 60 episodes in syndication that when Cartoon Network finally got the rights to air it they based Toonami all around it, before they even had new episodes
The start of DBZ is just way more accessible to Western kids since it starts with all out action. While the start of DB is pretty much a gag series. I do wonder how popular DB would've been in the West if they started with the Budokai arc

They still could have just continued the Series with episode 14 onward and then see if it gets more popular. If they would have marketed the ealier parts of the Series better, they could still have been popular before they got to the Saiyan Arc. For example, most countrys got the Series in order and it was popular before the Z stuff.

[sintzu]

Wasen´t it the fault of the censored 4 Kids Dub that One Piece didn´t reached its potencial with the later uncut Funi Dub?

It doesn't matter what the reason was, my point is that one piece didn't have a split to fall back on like DB did, something DB itself wouldn't have had without Z.

[Zephyr]

Didn't DBZ not really catch on until it came to a reasonable time slot?

[VegettoEX]

Didn't DBZ not really catch on until it came to a reasonable time slot?

In America? Specifically with regard to Cartoon Network? That's a little bit of revisionist history.

Local networks gave better timeslots for season two of Dragon Ball Z than they gave the first season of Dragon Ball Z, and they gave the first season of Dragon Ball Z better timeslots than they gave the original Dragon Ball.

Dragon Ball Z was expanded to its own dedicated, two-episode/one-hour timeslot in its second season in syndication (1997-1998). This is a time before Pokemon. The show was undeniably a hit and exponentially growing in popularity, mindshare, and marketshare.

Yes, of course Dragon Ball Z exploded when it went to Toonami on Cartoon Network, no doubt helped by an after-school timeslot... but it was primed by a few solid years of syndication building that fanbase, word-of-mouth, and increasing merchandising going on.

[Zephyr]

Gotcha. Was more misremembering than deliberate revisionist history on my part.

Take home point still being that DB wasn't given the same exact shot that DBZ was, so the arguments that the Pilaf arc was definitely inherently less able to catch on still ultimately hinge on selectively taking evidence into consideration, and ring a bit disingenuous as a result.

If DB aired at 6, I'm assuming season 1 of DBZ was what aired at 7, going by ABED's account. Anyone know when specifically season 2 aired? I'm curious how much of a better time slot that was.

[VegettoEX]

If DB aired at 6, I'm assuming season 1 of DBZ was what aired at 7, going by ABED's account. Anyone know when specifically season 2 aired? I'm curious how much of a better time slot that was.

It was inconsistent and ultimately up to the individual, local network. There were lots of posts on alt.fan.dragonball and rec.arts.misc.anime going through TV listings and trying to share what was up. I moved around a lot, and was always struggling to keep up even within the same season.

For me, DB aired early enough that I never knew about it or caught it by happenstance. DBZ season 1 aired Saturday at 6:30 in at least one area I lived in. Season two I wanna say had a pretty nice Sunday at 9 am timeslot where I was when it was wrapping up...?

[Kunzait_83]

If DB aired at 6, I'm assuming season 1 of DBZ was what aired at 7, going by ABED's account. Anyone know when specifically season 2 aired? I'm curious how much of a better time slot that was.

It was inconsistent and ultimately up to the individual, local network. There were lots of posts on alt.fan.dragonball and rec.arts.misc.anime going through TV listings and trying to share what was up. I moved around a lot, and was always struggling to keep up even within the same season.

For me, DB aired early enough that I never knew about it or caught it by happenstance. DBZ season 1 aired Saturday at 6:30 in at least one area I lived in. Season two I wanna say had a pretty nice Sunday at 9 am timeslot where I was when it was wrapping up...?

Saban DBZ Season 1 was around 5:30/6:00 AM for me, and Season 2 I wanna say 7:00/7:30 AM. Both seasons were pretty early at the ass-crack of dawn either way, so the fact that they managed to gain the traction that they did at that point is pretty remarkable, given that their target audience would be largely still asleep at those hours on a Saturday or Sunday.

I don't remember either season ever hitting anywhere near 9:00 AM on my end. The sun was usually barely up by the time it ever started.

[ABED]

That's interesting because I don't recall DBZ ever airing in my area when the sun wasn't up.

I think if there wasn't a split, DB would've gained popularity over time. From a pure marketing stand point, it's hard to fault anyone for doing what they did. If you could make your story more successful by adding an extra letter to the title, wouldn't you?

[OLKv3]

Gotcha. Was more misremembering than deliberate revisionist history on my part.

Take home point still being that DB wasn't given the same exact shot that DBZ was, so the arguments that the Pilaf arc was definitely inherently less able to catch on still ultimately hinge on selectively taking evidence into consideration, and ring a bit disingenuous as a result.

If DB aired at 6, I'm assuming season 1 of DBZ was what aired at 7, going by ABED's account. Anyone know when specifically season 2 aired? I'm curious how much of a better time slot that was.

It's not disingenuous. Season 1 of DBZ was aired as early as DB used to air, I used to make sure to wake up extra early so I could watch. DBZ somehow got popular enough to get better timeslots, but both starts were identical. DBZ flourished, DB didn't. Raditz and the Saiyans were a hotter draw for kids in America than Goku and Bulma doing wacky adventures. I don't understand why people don't want to accept this, it isn't bashing Dragon Ball, just showing what worked in America at the time

[Forte224]

Gotcha. Was more misremembering than deliberate revisionist history on my part.

Take home point still being that DB wasn't given the same exact shot that DBZ was, so the arguments that the Pilaf arc was definitely inherently less able to catch on still ultimately hinge on selectively taking evidence into consideration, and ring a bit disingenuous as a result.

If DB aired at 6, I'm assuming season 1 of DBZ was what aired at 7, going by ABED's account. Anyone know when specifically season 2 aired? I'm curious how much of a better time slot that was.

It's not disingenuous. Season 1 of DBZ was aired as early as DB used to air, I used to make sure to wake up extra early so I could watch. DBZ somehow got popular enough to get better timeslots, but both starts were identical. DBZ flourished, DB didn't. Raditz and the Saiyans were a hotter draw for kids in America than Goku and Bulma doing wacky adventures. I don't understand why people don't want to accept this, it isn't bashing Dragon Ball, just showing what worked in America at the time

People don't seem to like to admit that there is indeed a different feel to Z than there was in DB. Mainly because the original manga didn't make the distinction. But it definitely is a different feel and it obviously resonated more with kids here in America.