How would you feel if Toriyama killed your favorite character permanently?

[Vegeta_Sama]

I would probably get super mad, stop watching for a while, then I will without a doubt start again because I'll realize that DB is not just one character, and that it can live without him.

[DragonBallFoodie]

I'd be really upset, naturally.

[Robo4900]

At this point, I don't think any characters can die off permanently. Only way I can think of is if the Super Dragon Balls were used, which would be a pretty neat way to kick off an arc, but presumably the end goal of the arc would be to use the balls to revive whoever was killed. Not that that's a bad thing; there are other ways to do stakes than the threat of character deaths, but it kind of makes this hypothetical a little hard to address...

But, if someone was indeed somehow killed off permanently, it could be a really cool way to set up that "Okay, we're actually doing real stakes now for the first time since GT."

So, much as I'd hate to see him go, I think killing off Piccolo could be pretty cool.
Though I'm not sure how they'd kill off Piccolo well without it feeling like a rehash of GT.

[Whatever]

Depens on how its done,some of my favourites are already killed and some were killed by Toriyama despite being still alive.

Though I'm not sure how they'd kill off Piccolo well without it feeling like a rehash of GT.

Easy,have him have more than 5 seconds of screentime before they decide to kill him and not kill him for such an out of nowhere and pointless reason.

[Robo4900]

Easy,have him have more than 5 seconds of screentime before they decide to kill him and not kill him for such an out of nowhere and pointless reason.

You're right. They'll have him spend an entire arc waxing philosophical about death or something and spoiling it everywhere so it's not even slightly a surprise when it happens, taking all the real dramatic tension out of it.

[Forte224]

Vegeta? I'd be pretty sad, but that's kind of the point I suppose. If it were executed well I'd be cool with it.

[sunsetshimmer]

Depens on how its done,some of my favourites are already killed and some were killed by Toriyama despite being still alive.

Though I'm not sure how they'd kill off Piccolo well without it feeling like a rehash of GT.

Easy,have him have more than 5 seconds of screentime before they decide to kill him and not kill him for such an out of nowhere and pointless reason.

While you are right that he needed more screentime before he got killed, I can't agree with second part.

It wasn't pointless at all.
Technically if it wasn't for Piccolo, everything would be fine.
He made those dragon balls afterall.
We can't blame him but he is responsible for that.

[ABED]

Easy,have him have more than 5 seconds of screentime before they decide to kill him and not kill him for such an out of nowhere and pointless reason.

You're right. They'll have him spend an entire arc waxing philosophical about death or something and spoiling it everywhere so it's not even slightly a surprise when it happens, taking all the real dramatic tension out of it.

Thank you. It bugs me that some don't get not every fictional death needs to have its moment. Sometimes the shock has more impact because death is often abrupt and "out of nowhere".

[Whatever]

Easy,have him have more than 5 seconds of screentime before they decide to kill him and not kill him for such an out of nowhere and pointless reason.

You're right. They'll have him spend an entire arc waxing philosophical about death or something and spoiling it everywhere so it's not even slightly a surprise when it happens, taking all the real dramatic tension out of it.

I guess you are right,there is nothing more dramatic than killing someone who appeared for 5 seconds and got blown up only to appear in the middle of an episode announcing his suicide for a reason that could be prevented in many other easier and less extreme ways.

At the least in this case,in this 'theoretical' series Piccolo would be more of a character than his GT counterpart.

It wasn't pointless at all.

Well they could kill the dragon like his daddy King Piccolo did or destroy the black star dragonballs and if that does not work for some reason,have him(like Goku did) shallow one of the balls to make sure nobody gets them again.

[sunsetshimmer]

Well they could kill the dragon like his daddy King Piccolo did or destroy the black star dragonballs and if that does not work for some reason,have him(like Goku did) shallow one of the balls to make sure nobody gets them again.

Well, sometimes you have to chose between logic way and entertaining way. I mean there are A LOT of things in DB that were done in not the most logic way.
Goku also didn't have to die with Cell, he could go back to Earth. But they wanted it to be dramatic. Without Goku's death, this scene wouldn't be so epic and memorable.

Still, those balls were scattered across universe again when Baby used them so they would need to look for them again and i guess Piccolo just wanted to spare them going through all of that again. And while more logic it would be also not entertaining at all and we would miss arguably one of the saddest moments in DB.

Shallowing isn't the most secure way. Someone could've just killed Piccolo and take the ball.
The fastest and most safe way (other than killing Piccolo) would be to find one ball and destroy it but it would still force someone to go into space and look for it.
It could take even few months honestly.

[ABED]

Well they could kill the dragon like his daddy King Piccolo did or destroy the black star dragonballs and if that does not work for some reason,have him(like Goku did) shallow one of the balls to make sure nobody gets them again.

Well, sometimes you have to chose between logic way and entertaining way. I mean there are A LOT of things in DB that were done in not the most logic way.
Goku also didn't have to die with Cell, he could go back to Earth. But they wanted it to be dramatic. Without Goku's death, this scene wouldn't be so epic and memorable.

Still, those balls were scattered across universe again when Baby used them so they would need to look for them again and i guess Piccolo just wanted to spare them going through all of that again. And while more logic it would be also not entertaining at all and we would miss arguably one of the saddest moments in DB.

Shallowing isn't the most secure way. Someone could've just killed Piccolo and take the ball.
The fastest and most safe way (other than killing Piccolo) would be to find one ball and destroy it but it would still force someone to go into space and look for it.
It could take even few months honestly.

It wasn't just to be dramatic. It's in character for him to want to stay dead so he can train with other strong warriors.

Well they could kill the dragon like his daddy King Piccolo did or destroy the black star dragonballs and if that does not work for some reason,have him(like Goku did) shallow one of the balls to make sure nobody gets them again.

Those all sound like stopgap measures.

[Robo4900]

Thank you. It bugs me that some don't get not every fictional death needs to have its moment. Sometimes the shock has more impact because death is often abrupt and "out of nowhere".

Cheers.
I always quite liked that Piccolo's kind of splits the difference; you don't see it coming that Piccolo's going to die, you just see him pop up, and then he decides it. He's given a brief moment to say goodbye, mostly to Gohan, and you're left with the shock of Piccolo's death hanging over your head as you see the end of the arc.

I'm always reminded of Kuririn's first death; when I was a kid first watching that episode, it completely broke me for a little bit. It came out of no-where, and was one of the most shocking, horrifying things to happen in the series. Still gives me chills whenever I watch it.

I guess you are right,there is nothing more dramatic than killing someone who appeared for 5 seconds and got blown up only to appear in the middle of an episode announcing his suicide for a reason that could be prevented in many other easier and less extreme ways.

You say that like there aren't 483 episodes preceeding that.

At the least in this case,in this 'theoretical' series Piccolo would be more of a character than his GT counterpart.

Just because we hadn't seen him in a while doesn't lessen the impact of this main character who's been hanging around for years dying, or take away from his character. Inserting him haphazardly into the story before he appeared wouldn't have fit with the story they were telling, unless they gave him a token role as a bit part in something he has no real involvement in. And if you start doing that, you end up in Super's situation where every character is involved, but no one has any agency unless their name is Goku or Vegeta; I'd rather have a situation like Piccolo in GT than to have characters show up in insignificant roles that could easily be swapped out for any other character in the series.
And honestly, I think the fact Piccolo hasn't appeared in a while makes his death even more unexpected. If you're watching GT, you've already seen 444 episodes of the series before it(Or 291 if you're American), so you know Piccolo well enough that you don't need him to be reintroduced; he shows up, and it's like "Oh hey! Piccolo! Haven't seen him in a while. I guess he's going to resolve this situation with Goku on the planet... Wait... Hang on... Oh god no!!"

Again, I refer you to what I was saying earlier, and what ABED was saying; you don't need to telegraph the death, in fact with this one in particular, it works a lot better if it's abrupt. The best deaths in fiction are almost always the abrupt ones; Joss Whedon has a reputation for killing characters, but he rarely resorts to that extreme, he just does it incredibly well, incredibly jarringly, and ultimately, incredibly impactfully. If you see it coming, it would have no-where near the impact.

Well they could kill the dragon like his daddy King Piccolo did or destroy the black star dragonballs and if that does not work for some reason,have him(like Goku did) shallow one of the balls to make sure nobody gets them again.

Now that's just getting silly. To kill the dragon, they'd have to gather all the balls, and then somehow kill him; this dragon may be a lot stronger than Shen Long, and perhaps observant enough to avoid being murdered, and while you could argue they could just bring the balls back to earth, thing is, this would all require Goku and co. to once again journey out into space, and try to get the balls before someone else gets them. And after all the hassle caused by the last time, surely various other parties would be aware of the balls now, and thus looking for them? Piccolo sacrificed himself to save everyone from having to deal with potentially another Baby ordeal. As ABED said, he wasn't dying just to be dramatic, he chose to die because he believed it was the only way. Piccolo doesn't screw around, he gets straight to the point. If there was another way, he'd do it. But there isn't. If you want to dispute that, then you're disputing the world being built, and at that point, argument begins to break down.

The fastest and most safe way (other than killing Piccolo) would be to find one ball and destroy it but it would still force someone to go into space and look for it.

Pretty sure the Dragon Balls are indestructible, or at least very close to it.
Again, I don't think there's a simple solution at all that doesn't run massive risks for earth and its people, thus why Piccolo elected to die.

[Whatever]

Well, sometimes you have to chose between logic way and entertaining way. I mean there are A LOT of things in DB that were done in not the most logic way.
Goku also didn't have to die with Cell, he could go back to Earth. But they wanted it to be dramatic. Without Goku's death, this scene wouldn't be so epic and memorable.

I mean in the manga it happens right away,it would be kind of a douchebag move for him to leave the bomb there and leave,and even excluding that,we know Goku wanted to remain dead(whatever the reason being because he attract danger or because he just wanted to have fun in the after life).

Still, those balls were scattered across universe again when Baby used them so they would need to look for them again and i guess Piccolo just wanted to spare them going through all of that again. And while more logic it would be also not entertaining at all and we would miss arguably one of the saddest moments in DB.

Goku can use IT again with SSJ4,he teleported all the way to Namek from King Kai's location in the Cell saga,so all he needs is a radar and the energy to go SSJ4 and he can destroy one ball and thats enough.

Shallowing isn't the most secure way. Someone could've just killed Piccolo and take the ball.

Well in this case only Piccolo and few others would know(unless they steal Giru,they could not know Piccolo has one inside him),even so as soon as the villain kills Piccolo it does not matter since the balls become inactive.

You say that like there aren't 483 episodes preceeding that.

If his death is gonna happen like the death of a red shirt then yeah.

Just because we hadn't seen him in a while doesn't lessen the impact of this main character who's been hanging around for years dying, or take away from his character. Inserting him haphazardly into the story before he appeared wouldn't have fit with the story they were telling, unless they gave him a token role as a bit part in something he has no real involvement in. And if you start doing that, you end up in Super's situation where every character is involved, but no one has any agency unless their name is Goku or Vegeta; I'd rather have a situation like Piccolo in GT than to have characters show up in insignificant roles that could easily be swapped out for any other character in the series.

But he did not fit in the story when he appeared anyways,his death came out of nowhere precisely because he was not involved at all and when he was involved,he only appeared to die for a reason that could easily be avoided.
Also man you sure love to talk about Super because i don't think it has anything to do with what we are talking about,not to mention a lot of character in GT were only there in insignificant roles to get beaten up so Goku could look better cleaning up house.

Again, I refer you to what I was saying earlier, and what ABED was saying; you don't need to telegraph the death, in fact with this one in particular, it works a lot better if it's abrupt. The best deaths in fiction are almost always the abrupt ones; Joss Whedon has a reputation for killing characters, but he rarely resorts to that extreme, he just does it incredibly well, incredibly jarringly, and ultimately, incredibly impactfully. If you see it coming, it would have no-where near the impact

I never said you need to telegraph or even hint the death,Piccolo's first death was not hinted at all but it worked because he was actually involved heavily in the story leading up to this event.
If Piccolo had not appeared since the 23rd Budokai and then randomly appeared on the battle against Nappa and died,then his death would not work at all.
His death in GT was out of nowhere for a pointless reason only for the purpose of drama(just like his death in Super but it was more flashy in GT's case).

Now that's just getting silly. To kill the dragon, they'd have to gather all the balls, and then somehow kill him; this dragon may be a lot stronger than Shen Long, and perhaps observant enough to avoid being murdered, and while you could argue they could just bring the balls back to earth, thing is, this would all require Goku and co. to once again journey out into space, and try to get the balls before someone else gets them. And after all the hassle caused by the last time, surely various other parties would be aware of the balls now, and thus looking for them? Piccolo sacrificed himself to save everyone from having to deal with potentially another Baby ordeal. As ABED said, he wasn't dying just to be dramatic, he chose to die because he believed it was the only way. Piccolo doesn't screw around, he gets straight to the point.

Nope only Goku and Giru are needed,Goku can use IT again with SSJ4,he teleported all the way to Namek from King Kai's location in the Cell saga,so all he needs is a radar and the energy to go SSJ4 and he can destroy one ball and thats enough.
Even if other parties are involved with the dragonballs,so what?Goku can take them by force,they would be in different planets anyways so they could not get the chance to get the others before Goku comes to them,the reason Baby was a threat had nothing to do with the black star dragonballs.

If there was another way, he'd do it. But there isn't. If you want to dispute that, then you're disputing the world being built, and at that point, argument begins to break down.

There was another way and you can see that just by seeing the story presented to us but they decided not to do it because it was easier to kill him of for some drama since they did not want to kill any of the saiyans.

[ABED]

I never said you need to telegraph or even hint the death,Piccolo's first death was not hinted at all but it worked because he was actually involved heavily in the story leading up to this event.
If Piccolo had not appeared since the 23rd Budokai and then randomly appeared on the battle against Nappa and died,then his death would not work at all.
His death in GT was out of nowhere for a pointless reason only for the purpose of drama(just like his death in Super but it was more flashy in GT's case).

I understand your point, and while it leaves a lot to be desired, at least GT had the benefit of Piccolo being a good guy for years and developing a connection with the audience, unlike your hypothetical Saiyan arc example.

he can destroy one ball and thats enough.

We've never seen the DB's destroyed. We don't know if they can be.

If his death is gonna happen like the death of a red shirt then yeah.

Dropping context. Red shirts are nameless troops. Piccolo's history in the series is still there even if it's not recent.

[8000 Saiyan]

If Toriyama killed Goku permanently, then Dragon Ball wouldn't be the same.

[Robo4900]

Goku can use IT again with SSJ4,he teleported all the way to Namek from King Kai's location in the Cell saga,so all he needs is a radar and the energy to go SSJ4 and he can destroy one ball and thats enough.

A. How would you destroy the balls? They're pretty much indestructible.
B. The radar doesn't have infinite range; in GT, it's pretty clear when they're going around the universe, Gill would go "Oh, hey, Dragon Ball detected!!" when there was one nearby. Goku would need to continuously IT around the universe hopping from planet to planet until he found one close enough. Remember, in GT, they didn't even realise Goku couldn't IT until they were already on Imegga, and needed a quick way back home; if ITing was an option, they would have tried that first.
C. Even if the radar did have infinite range, the radar can guide you there, but how would Goku actually get there? In the past, it's always been the case that he needs an energy signal to lock on to. Or at the very least, he's had to for anything long-distance, and he needs a huge navigating signal for anything with any real distance. Given the balls scatter all over the universe, he'd have a pretty hard time finding anything to lock onto at any given time.
D. Super Saiyan 4 runs out of energy super-fast. No way he could maintain that for the amount of time it'd take to get anywhere.

There was another way and you can see that just by seeing the story presented to us but they decided not to do it because it was easier to kill him of for some drama since they did not want to kill any of the saiyans.

So far, you've pulled out several nonsensical ideas that very obviously wouldn't work. Your best idea so far is for Piccolo to eat a Dragon Ball, and that's only because it's your only stop-gap measure that is technically possible.

If his death is gonna happen like the death of a red shirt then yeah.

And that whole scene with him and Gohan means just as much as it would have if he'd been some rando, and any complete newbie redshirt to the franchise could have saved Goku, and the scene would have been just the same...

Also man you sure love to talk about Super because i don't think it has anything to do with what we are talking about,

Y'know, this sentence has made me come to my senses about something; this thread is asking how we would feel if Toriyama killed our favourite characters. I made an offhand remark that if he killed Piccolo, it would come off as a ripoff of GT, and now we're debating GT again.
Any thread with a mention of GT in it will inevitably lead to "lol super did it better" "it didn't" "lol it did gt sux" "it doesn't" "lol does too" "does not" "does too!" or some variation thereof. This isn't even a GT thread, and I'm already falling into this pattern. So, how about we stop this before we completely and totally derail the thread beyond the point of no return, eh?

If you wish to continue this GT discussion, you can open up a new thread, or talk in one of the many existing threads that serve this purpose.

[ABED]

The only way to really kill a character and not have the audience feel like it's the boy who cried wolf is they don't make a big deal about the character never coming back.

[majinwarman]

If Toriyama killed Goku permanently, then Dragon Ball wouldn't be the same.

I agree with that. Goku is Dragon Ball and it isn't the same without him.

[Whatever]

A. How would you destroy the balls? They're pretty much indestructible.
B. The radar doesn't have infinite range; in GT, it's pretty clear when they're going around the universe, Gill would go "Oh, hey, Dragon Ball detected!!" when there was one nearby. Goku would need to continuously IT around the universe hopping from planet to planet until he found one close enough. Remember, in GT, they didn't even realise Goku couldn't IT until they were already on Imegga, and needed a quick way back home; if ITing was an option, they would have tried that first.
C. Even if the radar did have infinite range, the radar can guide you there, but how would Goku actually get there? In the past, it's always been the case that he needs an energy signal to lock on to. Or at the very least, he's had to for anything long-distance, and he needs a huge navigating signal for anything with any real distance. Given the balls scatter all over the universe, he'd have a pretty hard time finding anything to lock onto at any given time.
D. Super Saiyan 4 runs out of energy super-fast. No way he could maintain that for the amount of time it'd take to get anywhere.

A.Unless i am missing something i don't recall them ever being shown or stated to be indestructible.
B.IT was never option because it was never considered before that moment,not like it mattered since Goku as a kid could not use it anyways
C.He can sense the energy singnal from most lifeforms,back in the Cell saga he transported from King Kai's planet to Namek just by sensing the Namekians
D.Not that super fast he would need to destroy only 1 but fine let him take a few senzus or Dende with him as well

So far, you've pulled out several nonsensical ideas that very obviously wouldn't work. Your best idea so far is for Piccolo to eat a Dragon Ball, and that's only because it's your only stop-gap measure that is technically possible.

The dragonballs being destroyed is a pretty much valid method,granted killing the dragon is not needed when you can use the much easier method of destroying the dragonballs.

And that whole scene with him and Gohan means just as much as it would have if he'd been some rando, and any complete newbie redshirt to the franchise could have saved Goku, and the scene would have been just the same...

Well anyone that knew about ki could in theory do the same giving energy thing.
He appeared for a few seconds got blasted,randomly appeared in the middle of an episode just to die,thats something i would expect from a redshirt.

Y'know, this sentence has made me come to my senses about something; this thread is asking how we would feel if Toriyama killed our favourite characters. I made an offhand remark that if he killed Piccolo, it would come off as a ripoff of GT, and now we're debating GT again.

I mean debating whatever or not someone's death was handled well is still in line with the theme of what if Toriyama killed our favourite characters.

Any thread with a mention of GT in it will inevitably lead to "lol super did it better" "it didn't" "lol it did gt sux" "it doesn't" "lol does too" "does not" "does too!" or some variation thereof. This isn't even a GT thread, and I'm already falling into this pattern. So, how about we stop this before we completely and totally derail the thread beyond the point of no return, eh?

I agree with stopping but some things to point out first.
You were the one who mentioned Super first..........and not even with something related to Piccolo's death in it(which would at the least be fitting of the subject),you went from Piccolo's GT death to how Super handles the characters and then comparing them in the same sentence.
Althought,you seem to have the tendecy a lot to get a chance to bring negative remarks about Super even in topics not related to it.

I understand your point, and while it leaves a lot to be desired, at least GT had the benefit of Piccolo being a good guy for years and developing a connection with the audience, unlike your hypothetical Saiyan arc example.

The way the GT story presented Piccolo was like this.
Remember this guy from Z?Oh he is blasted to death in a few seconds.Oh wait he is alive and he is gonna say goodbye and suicide.
Just replace Z with 23rd Budokai and its close enough.
He appeared so little by the point of his death that he did not even feel like a character anymore but as a tool for drama.

We've never seen the DB's destroyed. We don't know if they can be.

Piccolo tells Gotenks when he was blasting Buu to be carefull since he may destroy the dragonballs while he was firing randomly.

Dropping context. Red shirts are nameless troops. Piccolo's history in the series is still there even if it's not recent.

Red shirts usually are being killed just as drama fodder when you don't wanna kill anyone important.
Not saying Piccolo is a red shirt but most the events leading to his death in GT sure felt like he was being treated like one.

[ABED]

The way the GT story presented Piccolo was like this.
Remember this guy from Z?Oh he is blasted to death in a few seconds.Oh wait he is alive and he is gonna say goodbye and suicide.
Just replace Z with 23rd Budokai and its close enough.
He appeared so little by the point of his death that he did not even feel like a character anymore but as a tool for drama.

It's not because GT doesn't exist in a vacuum. I get your point, I do, and even agree to an extent. He could've been used better in GT before his death in order to make that moment land, but unlike the 23rd TB/Saiyan hypothetical example, the audience had a emotional connection with him based on years of seeing and reading the character, especially when he was a good guy.

Red shirts usually are being killed just as drama fodder when you don't wanna kill anyone important.

The way it's presented is that he's someone that matters. He's presented as someone important to the main character and the audience. It's the lack of buildup that is the problem.

Piccolo tells Gotenks when he was blasting Buu to be carefull since he may destroy the dragonballs while he was firing randomly.

I know the moment you speak of and others like it, but it's only ever said. It's never shown. For all we know, DB's can reform themselves. They are mystical after all. Kami brought back Shen Long after Piccolo killed him.