Canon after Toriyama?

[Mister_Popo]

I'm at the point where I think serial stories should last for a handful of years to get enough out of their premise and develop their characters, but end before they repeat themselves. Leave the party before it dies down.

Agreed, more and more I notice just how regurgitating a lot of series are, to the point where things that used to be special have become banal or a downright joke. Dragon Ball is no real exception, what is Beerus except a slightly more serious version of Boo? Their backstories are identical and their functions in the universe are so similar the redundancy still sticks out like a sore thumb over 5 years later. Freeza's return speaks for itself, it's just a longer, stupider version of the time Trunks killed him. The U6 and Survival arc tournaments are just the Otherworld Tournament except biggerer.

The only concept out of the new stuff that could've justified a temporary revival was the Black arc and even that has to retread the Future Trunks are by introducing ANOTHER apocalyptic doom scenario from which FT has to travel back to the past to fix.

I know what you mean. That's one of the reasons i have respect of authors like Alan Moore who don't validate the movie-adaptations of their work. It's ment to be a comic or manga, an adaptation doesn't automatically do anything creative. It has the tendency to do the opposite for commercial benefits. .

Moore is too much of an extremist when it comes to adaptations because he thinks that things in their origin format should ONLY ever stay there which is true for some things. You can't do the Silmarillion or rather the multitude of stories in it as anything. They're too vast, larger than life and also purposefully vague to ever really adapt.

Moore was definitely right about other things, re-reading Whatever Happen to the Man of Tomorrow and his pitch for Twilight of the Superheroes recently was like a scathing prediction of the future where previously beloved figures become corrupted despite their innocent origins and how the banality and pursuit of short-term sales boosting gimmicks destroys whatever artistry is left.

Fuck, I'm surprised the current entertainment industry hasn't shat out Lord of the Rings 4 by this point. They've already ass fucked Watchmen with the recent Geoff Johns retcon machine, Doomsday Clock so we might as well go all out by this pint.

I know Moores work isn't comparable with DB. The stories are completely different. What i meant: when you start to allow adaptations and other features to live their own live, it can work both ways.
You get new content, but what's the real creativity of that content. In what amount isn't it a copycat of the original?

In Super we see things coming back from the original manga or things that can be described as fan service (Female Broly, Blue Vegetto, SSJ Blue being a recolor of SSJ ..), at this point it doesn't bother me ... Maybe, if it becomes too extreme like what's Dragon Ball Heroes is doing, i could change my mind. At the moment i think it's still acceptable within the main continuity.

[ABED]

I think Beerus is fundamentally different from Buu. Buu was a magical being who was created to destroy. Beerus is a god that destroys in order to maintain balance. I don't know how their backstories are in any way identical. He's not an outright villain. That was something genuinely new in DB and one reason I loved Battle of Gods. I think the film would've worked well as a conclusion for the series since it thematically was about Goku finding out there are more heights to reach and places to explore. I agree with the rest of your post, though.

And I don't know how my point has anything to do with Alan Moore. I'm more than fine with adaptations of existing works.

[ekrolo2]

I think Beerus is fundamentally different from Buu. Buu was a magical being who was created to destroy. Beerus is a god that destroys in order to maintain balance. I don't know how their backstories are in any way identical. He's not an outright villain. That was something genuinely new in DB and one reason I loved Battle of Gods. I think the film would've worked well as a conclusion for the series since it thematically was about Goku finding out there are more heights to reach and places to explore. I agree with the rest of your post, though.

I like Battle of Gods too but even to this day, having ANOTHER being who's reputation is built around him going around the galaxy destroying things since time immemorial is too close to Boo for my liking. I might like it better if the narrative addressed this point and tried to weave something out of it (although knowing Toriyama it would be skull splittingly retarded so maybe I should just shut up) or if the series tried to explain what keeping balance means.

Even 5 years later, I still don't know why Beerus destroys things. What happens when the balance is wrecked? It's made even more obvious now because Beerus has spent a long time awake and he's done nothing productive so the whole balance angle feels like that annoying story convention of a thing being important because we say and act like it is but can't be asked to elaborate.

[Mister_Popo]

I think Beerus is fundamentally different from Buu. Buu was a magical being who was created to destroy. Beerus is a god that destroys in order to maintain balance. I don't know how their backstories are in any way identical. He's not an outright villain. That was something genuinely new in DB and one reason I loved Battle of Gods. I think the film would've worked well as a conclusion for the series since it thematically was about Goku finding out there are more heights to reach and places to explore. I agree with the rest of your post, though.

And I don't know how my point has anything to do with Alan Moore. I'm more than fine with adaptations of existing works.

I'm sorry if you didn't comprehend it.

Toriyama = allowing further adapting of the same concept, and always continuing the same story

Moore = when the story is done it's done, and it doesn't need adaptation


Toryama is one of the few exceptions where i still like the progression of an ongoing story, untill now.
Some franchises however have gone too far milking the same concept endlessly. If DB can't renew on a certain point, maybe it'll be better they'll quit, but at the moment, i fully enjoy the revival and have no real complaints.

[ABED]

I think Beerus is fundamentally different from Buu. Buu was a magical being who was created to destroy. Beerus is a god that destroys in order to maintain balance. I don't know how their backstories are in any way identical. He's not an outright villain. That was something genuinely new in DB and one reason I loved Battle of Gods. I think the film would've worked well as a conclusion for the series since it thematically was about Goku finding out there are more heights to reach and places to explore. I agree with the rest of your post, though.

I like Battle of Gods too but even to this day, having ANOTHER being who's reputation is built around him going around the galaxy destroying things since time immemorial is too close to Boo for my liking. I might like it better if the narrative addressed this point and tried to weave something out of it (although knowing Toriyama it would be skull splittingly retarded so maybe I should just shut up) or if the series tried to explain what keeping balance means.

Even 5 years later, I still don't know why Beerus destroys things. What happens when the balance is wrecked? It's made even more obvious now because Beerus has spent a long time awake and he's done nothing productive so the whole balance angle feels like that annoying story convention of a thing being important because we say and act like it is but can't be asked to elaborate.

But he's not destroying things without reason or destruction for its own sake. He's doing it to maintain balance. It sounds like it's akin to thinning a herd. That's what I took from it. I get your point, and I'd like to know what it means exactly if balance isn't maintained, but at the very least, he's categorically different from Buu whose creation was nihilistic in nature.

Moore = when the story is done it's done, and it doesn't need adaptation

Adaptations are different from continuations. I like adaptations in different mediums. It can be the different story but done properly play to the strengths of the medium. I'm talking about when a story is done, that story is finished. It has nothing to do with adaptations. And Moore's reasons often don't feel artistic in nature as much as him being a curmudgeon. I like adaptations, but some stories are one offs. I don't care what went on before Watchmen or after. It's a singular story, leave it alone.

[Mister_Popo]

I think Beerus is fundamentally different from Buu. Buu was a magical being who was created to destroy. Beerus is a god that destroys in order to maintain balance. I don't know how their backstories are in any way identical. He's not an outright villain. That was something genuinely new in DB and one reason I loved Battle of Gods. I think the film would've worked well as a conclusion for the series since it thematically was about Goku finding out there are more heights to reach and places to explore. I agree with the rest of your post, though.

I like Battle of Gods too but even to this day, having ANOTHER being who's reputation is built around him going around the galaxy destroying things since time immemorial is too close to Boo for my liking. I might like it better if the narrative addressed this point and tried to weave something out of it (although knowing Toriyama it would be skull splittingly retarded so maybe I should just shut up) or if the series tried to explain what keeping balance means.

Even 5 years later, I still don't know why Beerus destroys things. What happens when the balance is wrecked? It's made even more obvious now because Beerus has spent a long time awake and he's done nothing productive so the whole balance angle feels like that annoying story convention of a thing being important because we say and act like it is but can't be asked to elaborate.

But he's not destroying things without reason or destruction for its own sake. He's doing it to maintain balance. It sounds like it's akin to thinning a herd. That's what I took from it. I get your point, and I'd like to know what it means exactly if balance isn't maintained, but at the very least, he's categorically different from Buu whose creation was nihilistic in nature.

Moore = when the story is done it's done, and it doesn't need adaptation

Adaptations are different from continuations. I like adaptations in different mediums. It can be the different story but done properly play to the strengths of the medium. I'm talking about when a story is done, that story is finished. It has nothing to do with adaptations. And Moore's reasons often don't feel artistic in nature as much as him being a curmudgeon.

But that's the point when the real canon becomes debatable. When the author continues for commercial reasons only. Adaptation and continuation milk out the same concept over and over again. Moreover: new adaptations or continuations tend to differ from the message of the original story. So they don't give anything new. That's where a Moore didn't continue and didn't allow for adaptations, in contrast to Toriyama: i only write to give a message, not for commercial reasons.

But in contrast to Moores work, Toriyamas work doesn't hold deeper philosophical messages, it's there for entertainment.

I just use this example to indicate DB just is there to our primitive enjoyment. But that doesn't mean we cannot enjoy it.

[ekrolo2]

But that's the point when the real canon becomes debatable. When the author continues for commercial reasons only. Adaptation and continuation milk out the same concept over and over again. That's where a Moore didn't continue and didn't allow for adaptations, in contrast to Toriyama: i only write to give a message, not for commercial reasons.

But in contrast to Moores work, Toriyamas work doesn't hold deeper philosophical messages, it's there for entertainment.

Real canon becomes debatable? Not really, no, only people overthinking it turn it into an issue. The original story is the one that's the "truest" canon. Nobody seeing the Watchmen movie will go and ask "is this more canon than the comic?!". Then again, I've seen people ask with a straight face how TDKReturns works in with Batman Beyond so I''m probs giving people too much credit.

There's also the fact adaptations allow for cool twists on established things and can do things the original can't. A manga like Dragon Ball can never hope to replicate the score of the adaptations for example, or some of the animation highs present there.

I would also say that just because Toriyama is about entertainment doesn't mean we should let them or even him exploit things the way they have. So what if DB isn't some profound tale, it still has artistic merits we've fucked to hell and back again over the past few years and will continue to do so because regurgitating things people are nostalgic for is all the entertainment industry can do in the 2010s.

[ABED]

I don't care one way or another what reasons they continue or not, be it for artistic reasons or for the money. I happen to think those two motivations need not be at odds with each other. I also don't care whether something is canon. My enjoyment isn't dependent on canon. If 20 years from now, DB has another series and says Battle of Gods isn't canon, I don't care. That movie still entertains me.

To use Star Wars as an example. I read Heir to the Empire a year after I got into Star Wars and it was considered a canon continuation of the story. I loved that and I loved the book. Now that canon has been thrown out by Disney. My enjoyment of that trilogy isn't diminished by Disney's decision. The books are still the books.

I agree with Ekrolo that the entertainment industry is playing on our nostalgia more than ever, but it doesn't work every time. It has its limits, and there's plenty of new great creative work being done. I'm not worried at all. I'd be more worried if all the revivals were financially successful all other things being equal. Solo not doing well gives me a little hope. It's not Schadenfreude, it's seeing that other people are waking up to it and hopefully people in the industry see that as well.

[Mister_Popo]

But that's the point when the real canon becomes debatable. When the author continues for commercial reasons only. Adaptation and continuation milk out the same concept over and over again. That's where a Moore didn't continue and didn't allow for adaptations, in contrast to Toriyama: i only write to give a message, not for commercial reasons.

But in contrast to Moores work, Toriyamas work doesn't hold deeper philosophical messages, it's there for entertainment.

Real canon becomes debatable? Not really, no, only people overthinking it turn it into an issue. The original story is the one that's the "truest" canon. Nobody seeing the Watchmen movie will go and ask "is this more canon than the comic?!". Then again, I've seen people ask with a straight face how TDKReturns works in with Batman Beyond so I''m probs giving people too much credit.

There's also the fact adaptations allow for cool twists on established things and can do things the original can't. A manga like Dragon Ball can never hope to replicate the score of the adaptations for example, or some of the animation highs present there.

I would also say that just because Toriyama is about entertainment doesn't mean we should let them or even him exploit things the way they have. So what if DB isn't some profound tale, it still has artistic merits we've fucked to hell and back again over the past few years and will continue to do so because regurgitating things people are nostalgic for is all the entertainment industry can do in the 2010s.

It's not about nostalgia alone. I think DBS is able to create a new vibe as well, there are new and original features, but they keep the old recognizable things as well. I think that's the strong feature of DBS. Heck, there is reason so many new people watch DBS and get to know the older part of the franchise through DBS that were in their fathers treasurehood when DB was airing. That's proof there is something beyond the original manga and anime that still can stands out for a newer generation as well. The original manga has it's value, but that doesn't mean there cannot be new content that has its merits as well.

DB is a franchise you are able to continue. That doesn't mean a new author in the (near) future cannot renew. I rather like that to happen. Watchmen Super probably would even be a ridiculous concept.

[ekrolo2]

It's not about nostalgie alone. I think DBS is able to create a new vibe as well, there are new and original features, but they keep the old recognizable things as well. I think that's the strong feature of DBS. Heck, there is reason so many new people watch DBS and get to know the older part of the franchise through DBS that were in their fathers treasurehood when DB was airing. That's proof there is something beyond the original manga and anime that still can stands out for a newer generation as well. The original manga has it's value, but that doesn't mean there cannot be new content that has its merits as well.

DB is a franchise you are able to continue. That doesn't mean a new author in the (near) future cannot renew. I rather like that to happen. Watchmen Super probably would even be a ridiculous concept.

Dragon Ball is something you CAN continue but evidence has mounted for years now it's something you shouldn't. It's painfully clear that DB, at least the way it is now, is simply not something that works past a certain point. Even the original run was reaching self-parody levels by the Android arc and was solidified with the Boo arc and we've kept forcing it to go on, and on, and on for way past that.

What is the new run? More Super Saiyan forms each more vapid than the last in their Earth-shattering lack of originality, retreads of past arcs so blatant it's basically self-plagiarism. If you put a gun to my head and told me to name the absolute most loathsome continuation of something that reached its expiration date decades ago, it would be Super. I guarantee you, if the fights in Super weren't half as good as they are, it would be more detested than GT.

[KBABZ]

I would argue that the anime has its own canon. It's an adaptation that sticks closely to the source material, but they have the freedom to do what they want.

I've always felt this as well once I actually read the manga. How many times has the anime expanded on something only for the manga to overwrite it and make them look quite silly? The original Dragon Ball legend, the holographic moon from Goku's pod, the creator of the Androids...

[ABED]

I would argue that the anime has its own canon. It's an adaptation that sticks closely to the source material, but they have the freedom to do what they want.

I've always felt this as well once I actually read the manga. How many times has the anime expanded on something only for the manga to overwrite it and make them look quite silly? The original Dragon Ball legend, the holographic moon from Goku's pod, the creator of the Androids...

And Game of Thrones does the sensible thing which is after they got ahead of the books they didn't stall, they took the TV series in the direction they thought it should go. DB constantly had to stall and created its own stories while waiting for Toriyama to get far enough down the line so they could keep close to his story.

[KBABZ]

I would argue that the anime has its own canon. It's an adaptation that sticks closely to the source material, but they have the freedom to do what they want.

I've always felt this as well once I actually read the manga. How many times has the anime expanded on something only for the manga to overwrite it and make them look quite silly? The original Dragon Ball legend, the holographic moon from Goku's pod, the creator of the Androids...

And Game of Thrones does the sensible thing which is after they got ahead of the books they didn't stall, they took the TV series in the direction they thought it should go. DB constantly had to stall and created its own stories while waiting for Toriyama to get far enough down the line so they could keep close to his story.

Well not just from a "we need to stall for time" perspective, but also a "making up details to flesh out the world" perspective. Things like the original Dragon Ball legend and the creator of the Androids were quite harmless at the time because it didn't look like Toriyama would ever explain those things, and yet they got contradicted anyway. Same with the original backstory for the Saiyans as told by Kaio; they're applicable to the anime to a certain degree but one should never try to apply them to the manga because those events were never talked about there.

[Mister_Popo]

It's not about nostalgie alone. I think DBS is able to create a new vibe as well, there are new and original features, but they keep the old recognizable things as well. I think that's the strong feature of DBS. Heck, there is reason so many new people watch DBS and get to know the older part of the franchise through DBS that were in their fathers treasurehood when DB was airing. That's proof there is something beyond the original manga and anime that still can stands out for a newer generation as well. The original manga has it's value, but that doesn't mean there cannot be new content that has its merits as well.

DB is a franchise you are able to continue. That doesn't mean a new author in the (near) future cannot renew. I rather like that to happen. Watchmen Super probably would even be a ridiculous concept.

Dragon Ball is something you CAN continue but evidence has mounted for years now it's something you shouldn't. It's painfully clear that DB, at least the way it is now, is simply not something that works past a certain point. Even the original run was reaching self-parody levels by the Android arc and was solidified with the Boo arc and we've kept forcing it to go on, and on, and on for way past that.

What is the new run? More Super Saiyan forms each more vapid than the last in their Earth-shattering lack of originality, retreads of past arcs so blatant it's basically self-plagiarism. If you put a gun to my head and told me to name the absolute most loathsome continuation of something that reached its expiration date decades ago, it would be Super. I guarantee you, if the fights in Super weren't half as good as they are, it would be more detested than GT.

It's a shounen fight anime. Original ways in depicting fights, like the special Kamehameha slide against Kefla to give one example, are an important aspect of the story telling and the show within DBS. It's one of his strong features and why it stands out. Is that a shame?

[ekrolo2]

It's a shounen fight anime. Original ways in depicting fights, like the special Kamehameha slide against Kefla to give one example, are an important aspect of the story telling and the show within DBS. It's one of his strong features and why it stands out. Is that a shame?

Yes, it's a cool little bit in an aggressively boring story where characters are pointlessly holding back for no good reason for fake tension sake until they're using rom hacks to instantly fix themselves back up for the next dumb spectacle.

Dragon Ball was never high art, but it wasn't just a stupid, vapid fighting series for most of its original run. Super is little more than a collection of occasionally cool animation showcases connected by plots that range from self-plagiarism to mediocrity to surpassing Mass Effect 3 in writing incompetence.

[Mister_Popo]

It's a shounen fight anime. Original ways in depicting fights, like the special Kamehameha slide against Kefla to give one example, are an important aspect of the story telling and the show within DBS. It's one of his strong features and why it stands out. Is that a shame?

Yes, it's a cool little bit in an aggressively boring story where characters are pointlessly holding back for no good reason for fake tension sake until they're using rom hacks to instantly fix themselves back up for the next dumb spectacle.

Dragon Ball was never high art, but it wasn't just a stupid, vapid fighting series for most of its original run. Super is little more than a collection of occasionally cool animation showcases connected by plots that range from self-plagiarism to mediocrity to surpassing Mass Effect 3 in writing incompetence.

That's a pathway they've shosen to go from end DB / start DBZ onwards. The franchise is best known for its epic fights, so why change a winning formula? Do you expect MUI Goku to go on a search for Dragon balls with a radar?
It has nothing to do with Super specific. I have the impression you are showcasing everything within your arsenal to bring Super down. That's your good right. But this frustration doesn't bring you anywhere.

[ekrolo2]

That's a pathway they've shosen to go from end DB / start DBZ onwards. The franchise is best known for its epic fights, so why change a winning formula? Do you expect MUI Goku to go on a search for Dragon balls with a radar?
It has nothing to do with Super specific. I have the impression you are showcasing everything within your arsenal to bring Super down. That's your good right. But this frustration doesn't bring you anywhere.

Fights are epic because they combine story and spectacle. Goku vs Vegeta isn't cool because it's got good variety and choreography to it, it's good because the story building up to and around it is good and the pay off at the end works. Same thing with Goku vs Jackie Chun or Goku vs Piccolo,... Bring the level of writing down to the current era and all of those "epic" fights would amount to is pretty noise.

If that's the only thing going for new Dragon Ball, an animation showcase, we might as well just make everything into prettier versions of the DBHeroes promo anime and drop any pretense to this crap meaning something.

[ABED]

I've always felt this as well once I actually read the manga. How many times has the anime expanded on something only for the manga to overwrite it and make them look quite silly? The original Dragon Ball legend, the holographic moon from Goku's pod, the creator of the Androids...

And Game of Thrones does the sensible thing which is after they got ahead of the books they didn't stall, they took the TV series in the direction they thought it should go. DB constantly had to stall and created its own stories while waiting for Toriyama to get far enough down the line so they could keep close to his story.

Well not just from a "we need to stall for time" perspective, but also a "making up details to flesh out the world" perspective. Things like the original Dragon Ball legend and the creator of the Androids were quite harmless at the time because it didn't look like Toriyama would ever explain those things, and yet they got contradicted anyway. Same with the original backstory for the Saiyans as told by Kaio; they're applicable to the anime to a certain degree but one should never try to apply them to the manga because those events were never talked about there.

People keep forgetting that Roshi prefaced his DB origin story with "it's just a story I heard".

[KBABZ]

And Game of Thrones does the sensible thing which is after they got ahead of the books they didn't stall, they took the TV series in the direction they thought it should go. DB constantly had to stall and created its own stories while waiting for Toriyama to get far enough down the line so they could keep close to his story.

Well not just from a "we need to stall for time" perspective, but also a "making up details to flesh out the world" perspective. Things like the original Dragon Ball legend and the creator of the Androids were quite harmless at the time because it didn't look like Toriyama would ever explain those things, and yet they got contradicted anyway. Same with the original backstory for the Saiyans as told by Kaio; they're applicable to the anime to a certain degree but one should never try to apply them to the manga because those events were never talked about there.

People keep forgetting that Roshi prefaced his DB origin story with "it's just a story I heard".

Oh I agree, but I've always felt that it was almost co-incidental, or thrown in there as if to say "Hey, this MAY change at some point in the future!".

[Mister_Popo]

This thread wasn't ment for blind hatred towards Super, GT ... or any storyline of Dragon Ball.
No, i don't agree, BOG, FT and TOP were good, enjoyable arcs in my opinion. It's not only about the fighting.

I think it's sad, this had again ended in a crusade of criticism against Super, why does it need to be addressed in every single thread possible?
It's fine by me you don't like it or you liked the original manga / anime more, no probs with that whatsoever, and of course Super can be criticized by fans, heck even i criticize. But why does this 'negativity' needs to be accented so many times over in every thread that has something to do with the (future of) the franchise? It's no constructive criticism anymore, it's just blind hate to bring the franchise down, that's all.
It's sad how deep the dislike has rooted against something that's supposed to be fun.