Why was it so difficult for the dubs to get the scene where Goku lets Vegeta go right before Kai?

[WittyUsername]

I was initially reluctant to make this thread, given how messy a certain other dub related thread I made ended up being, but this was something I have found peculiar, so I thought it would be worth asking.

Just to recap, FUNimation had several chances at getting the scene where Goku tells Kuririn to let Vegeta go right, even before Kai. Their first attempt was of course with the old edited dub they did with the Ocean voice cast (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kIqzjxGWaDA). This of course changed the reason for why Goku decided to spare Vegeta, so that instead of wanting to fight him again, he wanted to show Vegeta mercy, although I guess it should be noted that his reason for showing mercy in this dub apparently partially stemmed out of respect for Vegeta’s strength.

Interestingly, their next attempt at the scene was for the first Budokai game, which was actually the most accurate of their pre-Kaiattempts, given that Goku explicitly states here that he wants to fight Vegeta again one day so that he could beat him. Considering that the dub for this same game also featured its own version of the infamous “Hope of the Universe” speech, it is impressive how accurately they handled that scene.

After this, there was the flashback in GT, which, strangely enough, was actually a bit different from how they ended up handling the scene with their Ultimate Uncut redub, and was slightly more accurate in comparison, but it still ultimately boiled down to Goku wanting to show Vegeta mercy, which was inaccurate nonetheless.

Finally, for FUNimation’s final pre-Kai attempt at the scene, we have this (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u_6aQLyY9q0), which not only once again featured the “mercy” rationale, but arguably doubled down on it by having Goku actually foreshadow the fact that Vegeta would one day become a good guy who would sacrifice himself for the sake of the Earth, despite the fact that Toriyama hadn’t even though of that at the time he wrote that scene. While the Ultimate Uncut dub did get a few script related things right that the 1996 dub completely messed up, this was certainly not one of them.

On another note, there was also the way that the Blue Water dub of GT handled the scene during the flashback (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dhdK2zKzi4E). This was probably the most bizarre case of a dub getting the scene wrong, given that the Blue Water dub was usually more accurate than the FUNimation dubs at the time. Not only that, but Goku’s reasoning made pretty much no sense. What exactly would Goku know about Saiyan honor at that point?

I know people often like to go on about the “Iam the hope of the universe” speech as the prime example of a Dragon Ball dub getting a scene wrong, but I’ve always found the scene where Goku let’s Vegeta go to be a more interesting case, given that the decision to let Vegeta live was the whole climax of the Saiyan saga.

[sintzu]

They wanted to make Goku look more heroic so that was a great (very inaccurate though) chance to do so. I don't understand why they felt they had to change who Goku was or change anything at all about DB, it was great as it was so it should've simply been left alone.

[MyVisionity]

With FUNimation, it was never really about getting things "right" or "wrong". Their dubs were not so much about faithfully adapting the original anime as much as they were about remaking it into something new and different.

In this particular case, I'm guessing they really wanted to push the more traditional "heroism" angle in the Saban era, and the subsequent versions just followed along.

[Kokonoe]

Thing is is that even in the JPN original, Vegeta realizes another reason why he was spared later on when he's thinking and conveys to the audience a further explanation. He states that Goku saw the good in his heart and that annoys him.

He also tried sparing the Ginyu Force and Frieza, and well, even Nappa. He gets upset when Vegeta kills his comerade and when Vegeta kills Recoome when he is down.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I was initially reluctant to make this thread, given how messy a certain other dub related thread I made ended up being, but this was something I have found peculiar, so I thought it would be worth asking.

Just to recap, FUNimation had several chances at getting the scene where Goku tells Kuririn to let Vegeta go right, even before Kai. Their first attempt was of course with the old edited dub they did with the Ocean voice cast (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kIqzjxGWaDA). This of course changed the reason for why Goku decided to spare Vegeta, so that instead of wanting to fight him again, he wanted to show Vegeta mercy, although I guess it should be noted that his reason for showing mercy in this dub apparently partially stemmed out of respect for Vegeta’s strength.

Interestingly, their next attempt at the scene was for the first Budokai game, which was actually the most accurate of their pre-Kaiattempts, given that Goku explicitly states here that he wants to fight Vegeta again one day so that he could beat him. Considering that the dub for this same game also featured its own version of the infamous “Hope of the Universe” speech, it is impressive how accurately they handled that scene.

After this, there was the flashback in GT, which, strangely enough, was actually a bit different from how they ended up handling the scene with their Ultimate Uncut redub, and was slightly more accurate in comparison, but it still ultimately boiled down to Goku wanting to show Vegeta mercy, which was inaccurate nonetheless.

Finally, for FUNimation’s final pre-Kai attempt at the scene, we have this (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u_6aQLyY9q0), which not only once again featured the “mercy” rationale, but arguably doubled down on it by having Goku actually foreshadow the fact that Vegeta would one day become a good guy who would sacrifice himself for the sake of the Earth, despite the fact that Toriyama hadn’t even though of that at the time he wrote that scene. While the Ultimate Uncut dub did get a few script related things right that the 1996 dub completely messed up, this was certainly not one of them.

On another note, there was also the way that the Blue Water dub of GT handled the scene during the flashback (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dhdK2zKzi4E). This was probably the most bizarre case of a dub getting the scene wrong, given that the Blue Water dub was usually more accurate than the FUNimation dubs at the time. Not only that, but Goku’s reasoning made pretty much no sense. What exactly would Goku know about Saiyan honor at that point?

I know people often like to go on about the “Iam the hope of the universe” speech as the prime example of a Dragon Ball dub getting a scene wrong, but I’ve always found the scene where Goku let’s Vegeta go to be a more interesting case, given that the decision to let Vegeta live was the whole climax of the Saiyan saga.

ChrisPsaros agrees with you and I agree as well. This scene being butchered is one of the most unsung tragedies of the Localazation of Dragon Ball.

[Robo4900]

Finally, for FUNimation’s final pre-Kai attempt at the scene, we have this (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u_6aQLyY9q0), which not only once again featured the “mercy” rationale, but arguably doubled down on it by having Goku actually foreshadow the fact that Vegeta would one day become a good guy who would sacrifice himself for the sake of the Earth, despite the fact that Toriyama hadn’t even though of that at the time he wrote that scene. While the Ultimate Uncut dub did get a few script related things right that the 1996 dub completely messed up, this was certainly not one of them.

The problem with Ultimate Uncut is that basically, what they did was they got the old 1996 scripts, changed things to fit their style and fix any obviously glaring errors(The "Brilliant scientist" line, for instance), and replace the usual euphamisms for death in the script(Gone, next dimension, destroy, etc.) with outright references to death... Other than that, the only changes made were additions to fill in stuff that had to be cut to fit Saban's mandated cutting requirements, though those were usually handled in much the same way as the poorly-handled scripts for DB, Z, and GT were put together, and intentionally put together in such a way that it would fit in with the modified 1996 material, and not jar against the "Season 3" material.

So, while minor things that would be obvious to anyone who's seen the run dubbed would know to be wrong have been corrected, anything more subtle than that such as the total failure of this scene's intent gets totally forgotten. In other words, it's exactly the same kind of crap they did in the first 13 episodes of their "Uncut" DB dub(Arguably 26 episodes, but no one's exactly sure if the full 26 episodes had scripts written when the decision was made to cut the BLT dub's 26-episode season order short at 13).

To be honest, Ultimate Uncut sucked, and this crap is why. The scripts were a mess, the acting wasn't any good, the replacement score was terrible... And yet at the same time it was marketed and supposedly directed as being a more accurate take on those episodes, the "Uncut redub" of the Saban episodes... But it really was no more accurate, and really, Ultimate Uncut is a very clear and very poorly-done attempt to replace the original Saban effort, and while it does have a couple of things in its favour that sound good on paper(Uncut dubbing, providing a consistent cast for all 291 episodes), the only thing of any value it really contributes is the fact that the uncut 291 episodes on all releases since then means Japanese with subs is an option for all 291 episodes. The dub itself is really just all the stuff that didn't work about the old Z dub combined with a really poor attempt at doing some Kai dub-esque stuff before they had the means to actually do it right.

On another note, there was also the way that the Blue Water dub of GT handled the scene during the flashback (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dhdK2zKzi4E). This was probably the most bizarre case of a dub getting the scene wrong, given that the Blue Water dub was usually more accurate than the FUNimation dubs at the time. Not only that, but Goku’s reasoning made pretty much no sense. What exactly would Goku know about Saiyan honor at that point?

Blue Water GT, in every case I've seen, is as accurate as TV dubs get and always head-and-shoulders above Funimation in this regard either in the literal text of the script or in the spirit of the dialogue being written but usually both(One example of it just being more accurate in spirit is Piccolo's line to that monster in hell in episode 64, where each dub only adapted half of what he said in the original Japanese; Funimation adapted the half where he's throwing a somewhat intimidating insult, meanwhile Blue Water adapted the half where he's somewhat lightheartedly but still rather intimidatingly telling the monster to quiet down), with one exception -- this episode. I have no idea exactly what happened, but for some reason, this episode of Blue Water GT has the accuracy just fall down the toilet. I'm unsure if it's actually much less accurate than Funi, but while the GT footage is just as accurate as ever, the flashbacks are an inconsistent mess; some are bang-on, others -- such as the scene in question in this thread -- are a complete shambles.
You'd think the reason the Z flashbacks are a mess is because they were based on the Z scripts Ocean used or something, but that's very much not the case. I have no idea why the Z flashbacks in this episode were so inconsitent in quality, but for whatever reason it is, this scene is particularly badly affected, which is a massive shame.

I know people often like to go on about the “Iam the hope of the universe” speech as the prime example of a Dragon Ball dub getting a scene wrong, but I’ve always found the scene where Goku let’s Vegeta go to be a more interesting case, given that the decision to let Vegeta live was the whole climax of the Saiyan saga.

Agreed. The "I am the hope of the universe" mess Funi threw onto their scripts was dumb and wrong, but this is much more interesting, this is much more of a clear example of Funi completely throwing Goku's character out the window, and the inconsistent ways it's been handled over the years are very interesting.

[DBZAOTA482]

Because the staff behind those dubs were filled with sissies who think the audience can't handle the idea of a hero who enjoys his job.

[WittyUsername]

Finally, for FUNimation’s final pre-Kai attempt at the scene, we have this (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u_6aQLyY9q0), which not only once again featured the “mercy” rationale, but arguably doubled down on it by having Goku actually foreshadow the fact that Vegeta would one day become a good guy who would sacrifice himself for the sake of the Earth, despite the fact that Toriyama hadn’t even though of that at the time he wrote that scene. While the Ultimate Uncut dub did get a few script related things right that the 1996 dub completely messed up, this was certainly not one of them.

The problem with Ultimate Uncut is that basically, what they did was they got the old 1996 scripts, changed things to fit their style and fix any obviously glaring errors(The "Brilliant scientist" line, for instance), and replace the usual euphamisms for death in the script(Gone, next dimension, destroy, etc.) with outright references to death... Other than that, the only changes made were additions to fill in stuff that had to be cut to fit Saban's mandated cutting requirements, though those were usually handled in much the same way as the poorly-handled scripts for DB, Z, and GT were put together, and intentionally put together in such a way that it would fit in with the modified 1996 material, and not jar against the "Season 3" material.

So, while minor things that would be obvious to anyone who's seen the run dubbed would know to be wrong have been corrected, anything more subtle than that such as the total failure of this scene's intent gets totally forgotten. In other words, it's exactly the same kind of crap they did in the first 13 episodes of their "Uncut" DB dub(Arguably 26 episodes, but no one's exactly sure if the full 26 episodes had scripts written when the decision was made to cut the BLT dub's 26-episode season order short at 13).

To be honest, Ultimate Uncut sucked, and this crap is why. The scripts were a mess, the acting wasn't any good, the replacement score was terrible... And yet at the same time it was marketed and supposedly directed as being a more accurate take on those episodes, the "Uncut redub" of the Saban episodes... But it really was no more accurate, and really, Ultimate Uncut is a very clear and very poorly-done attempt to replace the original Saban effort, and while it does have a couple of things in its favour that sound good on paper(Uncut dubbing, providing a consistent cast for all 291 episodes), the only thing of any value it really contributes is the fact that the uncut 291 episodes on all releases since then means Japanese with subs is an option for all 291 episodes. The dub itself is really just all the stuff that didn't work about the old Z dub combined with a really poor attempt at doing some Kai dub-esque stuff before they had the means to actually do it right.

On another note, there was also the way that the Blue Water dub of GT handled the scene during the flashback (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dhdK2zKzi4E). This was probably the most bizarre case of a dub getting the scene wrong, given that the Blue Water dub was usually more accurate than the FUNimation dubs at the time. Not only that, but Goku’s reasoning made pretty much no sense. What exactly would Goku know about Saiyan honor at that point?

Blue Water GT, in every case I've seen, is as accurate as TV dubs get and always head-and-shoulders above Funimation in this regard either in the literal text of the script or in the spirit of the dialogue being written but usually both(One example of it just being more accurate in spirit is Piccolo's line to that monster in hell in episode 64, where each dub only adapted half of what he said in the original Japanese; Funimation adapted the half where he's throwing a somewhat intimidating insult, meanwhile Blue Water adapted the half where he's somewhat lightheartedly but still rather intimidatingly telling the monster to quiet down), with one exception -- this episode. I have no idea exactly what happened, but for some reason, this episode of Blue Water GT has the accuracy just fall down the toilet. I'm unsure if it's actually much less accurate than Funi, but while the GT footage is just as accurate as ever, the flashbacks are an inconsistent mess; some are bang-on, others -- such as the scene in question in this thread -- are a complete shambles.
You'd think the reason the Z flashbacks are a mess is because they were based on the Z scripts Ocean used or something, but that's very much not the case. I have no idea why the Z flashbacks in this episode were so inconsitent in quality, but for whatever reason it is, this scene is particularly badly affected, which is a massive shame.

I know people often like to go on about the “Iam the hope of the universe” speech as the prime example of a Dragon Ball dub getting a scene wrong, but I’ve always found the scene where Goku let’s Vegeta go to be a more interesting case, given that the decision to let Vegeta live was the whole climax of the Saiyan saga.

Agreed. The "I am the hope of the universe" mess Funi threw onto their scripts was dumb and wrong, but this is much more interesting, this is much more of a clear example of Funi completely throwing Goku's character out the window, and the inconsistent ways it's been handled over the years are very interesting.

I wouldn’t really say that the Blue Water dub is “as accurate as TV dubs get”. If I recall, the final moments of the series also had a lot of additional dialogue from the narrator that wasn’t in the Japanese version. It’s more accurate than the FUNimation dub, but it still has some odd moments of its own.

As for the Ultimate Uncut dub, there actually were some other moments where the dialogue from the old dub was improved. For example, Tenshinhan’s “three eyed cowboy” line was removed, and Vegeta’s dialogue to Dodoria right before he killed him was actually fairly accurate to the Japanese version. Also, the filler moments that didn’t make it into the old dub were fairly accurate as well. It was still a pretty inconsistent dub, but there were some moments where it seemed like FUNimation actually was trying to throw a bone to fans of the original, when they weren’t just adapting the old scripts.

[Robo4900]

I wouldn’t really say that the Blue Water dub is “as accurate as TV dubs get”. If I recall, the final moments of the series also had a lot of additional dialogue from the narrator that wasn’t in the Japanese version.

I mean, BW's GT dub wasn't perfecy by any stretch, but it was at the very least, the most accurate Dragon Ball series dub we got until at least Kai. I suppose saying it's as accurate as TV dubs get may be a stretch since I don't know all that many TV dubs, but as long as you're not one to just point to a few key instances and say "see it sux" as most people do when trying to poke holes in the Ocean dubs, and you actually watch the show, and look at what the scripts in general were like, not just what the scripts were like for the few key scenes that people point to as "look thi s is why ocena nd blue water suk lol", you'll find it's actually a really accurate dub. If they'd kept the Vancouver cast from Z, I have no doubt it would be remembered as some of Ocean's finest work on Dragon Ball overall.

As for the Ultimate Uncut dub, there actually were some other moments where the dialogue from the old dub was improved. For example, Tenshinhan’s “three eyed cowboy” line was removed, and Vegeta’s dialogue to Dodoria right before he killed him was actually fairly accurate to the Japanese version. Also, the filler moments that didn’t make it into the old dub were fairly accurate as well. It was still a pretty inconsistent dub, but there were some moments where it seemed like FUNimation actually was trying to throw a bone to fans of the original, when they weren’t just adapting the old scripts.

Again, stuff like Tenshinhan's cowboy line was just Funi conforming the dialogue to their style at the time. As for the filler moments and such... Again, there was really no serious effort to make UUE any better than the Saban dub in terms of accuracy, the only reason their translations of the filler such that got cut weren't totally inaccurate was because they happened to have some half-decent translations for that stuff to work off of. There was no attempt at throwing a bone to the fans, UUE was a cheap rushed job and an attempt to hastily fill in that last little gap of Dragon Ball Funimation hadn't dubbed so they could keep putting out new releases. If they really were trying to throw a bone to the fans, they wouldn't have replaced the score(Or at least, they would have had a Japanese score option on the DVDs), they wouldn't have cancelled the DVDs after 27 episodes, and the "Season" DVDs wouldn't have been a cropped mess.

[WittyUsername]

I wouldn’t really say that the Blue Water dub is “as accurate as TV dubs get”. If I recall, the final moments of the series also had a lot of additional dialogue from the narrator that wasn’t in the Japanese version.

I mean, BW's GT dub wasn't perfecy by any stretch, but it was at the very least, the most accurate Dragon Ball series dub we got until at least Kai. I suppose saying it's as accurate as TV dubs get may be a stretch since I don't know all that many TV dubs, but as long as you're not one to just point to a few key instances and say "see it sux" as most people do when trying to poke holes in the Ocean dubs, and you actually watch the show, and look at what the scripts in general were like, not just what the scripts were like for the few key scenes that people point to as "look thi s is why ocena nd blue water suk lol", you'll find it's actually a really accurate dub. If they'd kept the Vancouver cast from Z, I have no doubt it would be remembered as some of Ocean's finest work on Dragon Ball overall.

I actually have watched a good chunk of the Blue Water dub of GT. I also never said that it “sux”, but I think you’re kind of overblowing its quality. Besides, with all due respect, I’ve seen you nitpick certain scenes from the FUNimation dub of Super, so I’m not sure why I can’t do the same with the Blue Water dub of GT. I also never mentioned anything about the Ocean group in this case. Granted, I'm not as fond about the Ocean voice cast as a lot of other people are, but that doesn’t really have anything to do with the Blue Water dub.

Anyway, we probably shouldn’t get into another debate about this.

Again, stuff like Tenshinhan's cowboy line was just Funi conforming the dialogue to their style at the time. As for the filler moments and such... Again, there was really no serious effort to make UUE any better than the Saban dub in terms of accuracy, the only reason their translations of the filler such that got cut weren't totally inaccurate was because they happened to have some half-decent translations for that stuff to work off of. There was no attempt at throwing a bone to the fans, UUE was a cheap rushed job and an attempt to hastily fill in that last little gap of Dragon Ball Funimation hadn't dubbed so they could keep putting out new releases. If they really were trying to throw a bone to the fans, they wouldn't have replaced the score(Or at least, they would have had a Japanese score option on the DVDs), they wouldn't have cancelled the DVDs after 27 episodes, and the "Season" DVDs wouldn't have been a cropped mess.

I never claimed that the UU dub was a good attempt at throwing fans a bone, but were some minor moments where they seemed to be making a minor effort at being slightly more accurate. It wasn’t an accurate dub overall, and a lot of it was just reusing dialogue from the old dub, but there were a few moments that they sort of got right. It was certainly no Kai, but it at the very least did get slightly better as they approached the Freeza arc.

[Robo4900]

I actually have watched a good chunk of the Blue Water dub of GT. I also never said that it “sux”

No, I know. I'm sorry if that's how it came off, but Blue Water GT's reputation online is in the dirt, as is the case with all dubs that aren't Funimation. The awful fans you encounter in some parts of the internet(Mostly YouTube, of course) who just point to a few bits that suck and claim it represents the whole dub are who I was referring to there. I was assuming that you'd seen some clips online and such, but never really compared it to the Japanese version as I have, and for that, I'm sorry.

I've become quite cynical about all this after all the unpleasant encounters online I've had about this.

but I think you’re kind of overblowing its quality. Besides, with all due respect, I’ve seen you nitpick certain scenes from the FUNimation dub of Super, so I’m not sure why I can’t do the same with the Blue Water dub of GT.

Totally different situations. Blue Water GT was a cheaply-produced TV dub using the cheaper studio that's barely got a union behind it, and yet it managed to be a highly-accurate dub with a script better than any of the series dubs until Kai, and was the very first full Dragon Ball series dub we got that actually properly represented the series for what it is. And in fact, aside from a few episodes that had to cut some shots of Goku's penis being in full view, the episode contents ended up uncut...

Funi Super is supposed to be the definitive dub of Super, it's the uncut dub that'll go on the DVDs/BDs, all the people behind it are talking about it being the most accurate, true representation of the original Japanese... And yet basically every scene has at least two or three unnecessary changes. There is absolutely no excuse for this.

So, one is a TV dub that went above and beyond the call of duty of a 2003 TV dub, the other is supposedly an accurate, faithful dub produced by people who've been with this franchise for upwards of 20 years, yet they can't even get Goku's name right(Funnily enough, this is something Blue Water did get right, even if their pronunciation was off).

I never claimed that the UU dub was a good attempt at throwing fans a bone, but were some minor moments where they seemed to be making a minor effort at being slightly more accurate. It wasn’t an accurate dub overall, and a lot of it was just reusing dialogue from the old dub, but there were a few moments that they sort of got right. It was certainly no Kai, but it at the very least did get slightly better as they approached the Freeza arc.

Eh, fair enough. Still, it wasn't good enough, it was highly deceptive of what it is(Which is often something I'm very hard on Funimation for; note how hard I am on their Super dub, and how they claim it's the most accurate, faithful possible approach to dubbing, and yet every scene has at least one or two major deviation from the subs that's totally unnecessary), and it pails in comparison to the Saban dub. Yes the Saban dub was cut, but at least it had a cast of professional actors behind it, and was confident about what it is. UUE doesn't even do its duty of properly gelling with "Season 3", in fact the Saban dub gels better with "Season 3" than UUE ever did...

[WittyUsername]

Totally different situations. Blue Water GT was a cheaply-produced TV dub using the cheaper studio that's barely got a union behind it, and yet it managed to be a highly-accurate dub with a script better than any of the series dubs until Kai. In fact, aside from a few episodes that had to cut some shots of Goku's penis being in full view, the episode contents ended up uncut.

Funi Super is supposed to be the definitive dub of Super, it's the uncut dub that'll go on the DVDs/BDs, all the people behind it are talking about it being the most accurate, true representation of the original Japanese... And yet basically every scene has at least two or three unnecessary changes. There is absolutely no excuse for this.

So, one is a TV dub that went above and beyond the call of duty of a 2003 TV dub, the other is supposedly an accurate, faithful dub produced by people who've been with this franchise for upwards of 20 years, yet they can't even get Goku's name right(Funnily enough, this is something Blue Water did get right, even if their pronunciation was off).

As far as I know, the FUNimation dub of Super has been acknowledged by Chris Sabat as having made some changes to the Japanese version. It’s not quite as accurate as Kai 1.0, but it still is more accurate than the pre-Kai stuff that FUNimation did, and while it’s perhaps not as good as it potentially could’ve been, it’s still not what I would consider to be a hack effort, and regardless of what you think of actors like Sean Schemmel and Chris Sabat, they’re currently the best they’ve ever been.

As far as the Son Goku thing is concerned, FUNimation did at one point use that full name for him, though that was from the dub of Kai.

[Robo4900]

As far as I know, the FUNimation dub of Super has been acknowledged by Chris Sabat as having made some changes to the Japanese version. It’s not quite as accurate as Kai 1.0, but it still is more accurate than the pre-Kai stuff that FUNimation did, and while it’s perhaps not as good as it potentially could’ve been, it’s still not what I would consider to be a hack effort, and regardless of what you think of actors like Sean Schemmel and Chris Sabat, they’re currently the best they’ve ever been.

As much as I criticise the Funi cast's work on the pre-Kai dubs in general, I would never say that Schemmel or Sabat are anything less than excellent. Sabat provided the English-speaking world with its third definitive performance as Vegeta(Horikawa and Drummond being the other two, of course), which is a ridiculous feat for an actor to pull off, and Sabat nailed it. Schemmel has done similar with Goku, and the modern Funi dubs have very strong performances in general...

But Super's scripting is no-where near as good as it should be. It would be a decent effort for a mid-'00s script with some good translators but some somewhat overzealous script adaptors, but as a 2018 dub of a series these guys have spent 20 years working on, these scripts are crap. While the phrasing can be a little clunky at times, Bang Zoom did a much better job than Funi in general when it comes to scripting a Super dub.

As far as the Son Goku thing is concerned, FUNimation did at one point use that full name for him, though that was from the dub of Kai.

Well, first off that's Kai, and Kai 1.0 at that. I have minor beef with Kai 1.0, but it did a pretty good job overall. It's really Super that gets my goat.

But, even at that, Kai's usage doesn't really count as a point in their favour... They namedropped the proper name as a little nod to the hardcore fans. It was a one-off, and they've pointedly avoided even acknowledging that at all other times. Honestly, I find that namedrop more annoying than anything else about the "Son Goku" situation; the lead character's full name has only been mentioned in the Funimation dubs here, and it's considered a special occasion that won't be repeated... I think that tells you quite a lot about the stupid commitment to holding up the legacy of the inaccurate dubs of the past the team behind Funimation's Dragon Ball scripts is. There's no reason Goku shouldn't ever be referred to by his full name, there's no reason the attack names should still be inaccurate and stupid(Which Kai 1.0 temporarily fixed...), and there is absolutely no goddamn way in hell that we should still be debating whether or not Funimation should or should not have replaced an entire scene in Final Chapters with 2 and a half minutes of memes and dumb jokes that are totally irrelevant to the original Japanese script in a dub that was recorded in 2014. (Yes, I enjoy the fact TFS were in that scene, and I think they absolutely should have remained in it... But while I enjoyed the dumb memes and jokes in the script at the time, reflecting on it, they really shouldn't have done that to the script)

[WittyUsername]

As far as I know, the FUNimation dub of Super has been acknowledged by Chris Sabat as having made some changes to the Japanese version. It’s not quite as accurate as Kai 1.0, but it still is more accurate than the pre-Kai stuff that FUNimation did, and while it’s perhaps not as good as it potentially could’ve been, it’s still not what I would consider to be a hack effort, and regardless of what you think of actors like Sean Schemmel and Chris Sabat, they’re currently the best they’ve ever been.

As much as I criticise the Funi cast's work on the pre-Kai dubs in general, I would never say that Schemmel or Sabat are anything less than excellent. Sabat provided the English-speaking world with its third definitive performance as Vegeta(Horikawa and Drummond being the other two, of course), which is a ridiculous feat for an actor to pull off, and Sabat nailed it. Schemmel has done similar with Goku, and the modern Funi dubs have very strong performances in general...

But Super's scripting is no-where near as good as it should be. It would be a decent effort for a mid-'00s script with some good translators but some somewhat overzealous script adaptors, but as a 2018 dub of a series these guys have spent 20 years working on, these scripts are crap. While the phrasing can be a little clunky at times, Bang Zoom did a much better job than Funi in general when it comes to scripting a Super dub.

As far as the Son Goku thing is concerned, FUNimation did at one point use that full name for him, though that was from the dub of Kai.

Well, first off that's Kai, and Kai 1.0 at that. I have minor beef with Kai 1.0, but it did a pretty good job overall. It's really Super that gets my goat.

But, even at that, Kai's usage doesn't really count as a point in their favour... They namedropped the proper name as a little nod to the hardcore fans. It was a one-off, and they've pointedly avoided even acknowledging that at all other times. Honestly, I find that namedrop more annoying than anything else about the "Son Goku" situation; the lead character's full name has only been mentioned in the Funimation dubs here, and it's considered a special occasion that won't be repeated... I think that tells you quite a lot about the stupid commitment to holding up the legacy of the inaccurate dubs of the past the team behind Funimation's Dragon Ball scripts is. There's no reason Goku shouldn't ever be referred to by his full name, there's no reason the attack names should still be inaccurate and stupid(Which Kai 1.0 temporarily fixed...), and there is absolutely no goddamn way in hell that we should still be debating whether or not Funimation should or should not have replaced an entire scene in Final Chapters with 2 and a half minutes of memes and dumb jokes that are totally irrelevant to the original Japanese script in a dub that was recorded in 2014. (Yes, I enjoy the fact TFS were in that scene, and I think they absolutely should have remained in it... But while I enjoyed the dumb memes and jokes in the script at the time, reflecting on it, they really shouldn't have done that to the script)

FUNimation’s approach to the dub of Super doesn’t really seem like what I’d call “crap”. It’s more akin to their dub of Yu Yu Hakusho than their dub of Kai, but I wouldn’t really call it a big drop in quality. I don’t care for the occasional references to memes either, but I’d chalk those up to odd isolated moments than anything else. I’d prefer if they didn’t do stuff like that in the first place, but in all honesty, even Kai 1.0 had the occasional hiccup.

Anyway, between the FUNimation dub and the Bang Zoom dub, I’d probably have to give it to the FUNimation dub overall, though it’s an unfair comparison, given that Bang Zoom only dubbed the first 27 episodes.

Also, regarding the Son Goku thing, there’s not a whole lot that can really be done about it. If they stuck with a name on a recurring basis, it would just beg the question of why they wouldn’t use it on other occasions.

[Robo4900]

FUNimation’s approach to the dub of Super doesn’t really seem like what I’d call “crap”. It’s more akin to their dub of Yu Yu Hakusho than their dub of Kai, but I wouldn’t really call it a big drop in quality. I don’t care for the occasional references to memes either, but I’d chalk those up to odd isolated moments than anything else. I’d prefer if they didn’t do stuff like that in the first place, but in all honesty, even Kai 1.0 had the occasional hiccup.

Anyway, between the FUNimation dub and the Bang Zoom dub, I’d probably have to give it to the FUNimation dub overall, though it’s an unfair comparison, given that Bang Zoom only dubbed the first 27 episodes.

Also, regarding the Son Goku thing, there’s not a whole lot that can really be done about it. If they stuck with a name on a recurring basis, it would just beg the question of why they wouldn’t use it on other occasions.

The problem is, these "Occasional isolated moments" happen constantly throughout every damn episode. The reason I call it crap is because we absolutely should expect and demand better in 2018. And yet, everyone just kind of rolls with it. And to be honest, that really annoys me. We should get better, but no one is asking for it, so we'll never get it.

As for Funi vs Bang Zoom, eh, I don't think BZ ran long enough to make any real judgements on it. Half the cast only really got into their roles as the run was ending. Hopefully they get more, because that cast has a lot of potential, and I think that dub is a really great alternate dub to have going.

As for Son Goku, there's rarely any reason for anyone to say his full name, so there's no reason they couldn't have started using his full name occasionally after the big Freeza speech, and chalked it up to not being necessary before then. It's no more abrupt than the Japanese attack names in the early run. But they haven't done that. And they switched to the lame dub names for all the attacks again. And that really sucks. These are two of so, so, so many tiny things Funimation gets wrong that aren't an issue on their own, but just like these "Occasional isolated little moments", happen constantly throughout every damn episode. It's hard to ignore it when it piles up like this, and the end result is just really disappointing for a dub produced in 2018 with talented translators like Steve Simmons and talented actors like Chris Sabat, Sean Schemmel, Chris Ayres, and of course the unforgettable James Marsters involved...

[MyVisionity]

Funnily enough, this is something Blue Water did get right, even if their pronunciation was off.

Are you saying that the Blue Water dub regularly referred to him as Son Goku after that episode?

Honestly, I find that namedrop more annoying than anything else about the "Son Goku" situation; the lead character's full name has only been mentioned in the Funimation dubs here, and it's considered a special occasion that won't be repeated... I think that tells you quite a lot about the stupid commitment to holding up the legacy of the inaccurate dubs of the past the team behind Funimation's Dragon Ball scripts is. There's no reason Goku shouldn't ever be referred to by his full name, there's no reason the attack names should still be inaccurate and stupid(Which Kai 1.0 temporarily fixed...), and there is absolutely no goddamn way in hell that we should still be debating whether or not Funimation should or should not have replaced an entire scene in Final Chapters with 2 and a half minutes of memes and dumb jokes that are totally irrelevant to the original Japanese script in a dub that was recorded in 2014. (Yes, I enjoy the fact TFS were in that scene, and I think they absolutely should have remained in it... But while I enjoyed the dumb memes and jokes in the script at the time, reflecting on it, they really shouldn't have done that to the script)

I'm not sure what exactly the problem is here. What reason would FUNi have to ever start using the 'Son' name, or to use the original attack names, or to stay relevant to the original Japanese script for a joke scene in 2014 (in Kai: The Final Chapters of all places)?

FUNimation's reworked version of the DB franchise has achieved years of success and following, so why wouldn't they be committed to the legacy of its past dubs? I may not like what they've done to the series, but I don't understand why fans should expect better, or demand (from FUNi) better, in 2018. In 2008, 2003 maybe, but now...??

[KBABZ]

I'm not sure what exactly the problem is here. What reason would FUNi have to ever start using the 'Son' name, or to use the original attack names, or to stay relevant to the original Japanese script for a joke scene in 2014 (in Kai: The Final Chapters of all places)?

Because Goku's full name is Son Goku and the characters in the Japanese version call him that very frequently. The original attack names work because they don't sound like hammy TMNT action figure attacks like most of the western attack names; Special Beam Cannon doesn't work as a name and is even nonsensical. Even Nimbus Cloud and Power Pole, two of my favourite names in anime, are hammy in a way that the originals are not intending to be.

FUNimation's reworked version of the DB franchise has achieved years of success and following, so why wouldn't they be committed to the legacy of its past dubs? I may not like what they've done to the series, but I don't understand why fans should expect better, or demand (from FUNi) better, in 2018. In 2008, 2003 maybe, but now...??

Because it's never too late to make it better. And with Kai in particular, that was FUNi's chance to REALLY do the series justice, and while they did for the most part, there are hundreds of little inaccuracies and inconsistencies that logically should not be there, but are, and it feels sloppy and careless to Robo and many other fans.

Ultimately this is the same discussion behind FUNi making comedic script changes in Super; it is technically not their job to put that stuff in there, they only need to translate the script (but not the names) and have their voice actors perform like the original Seiyuu.

[MyVisionity]

Special Beam Cannon doesn't work as a name and is even nonsensical. Even Nimbus Cloud and Power Pole, two of my favourite names in anime, are hammy in a way that the originals are not intending to be.

Honestly I think Special Beam Cannon is a decent name for the attack, and that it makes about as much sense as Makankousappou. Most of the meaning still remains underneath. Power Pole's not too bad either.

[Ssjcell]

I like the hope of the universe speech it made me want to be a better person and it inspired me.

[Robo4900]

I'm not sure what exactly the problem is here. What reason would FUNi have to ever start using the 'Son' name, or to use the original attack names, or to stay relevant to the original Japanese script for a joke scene in 2014 (in Kai: The Final Chapters of all places)?

FUNimation's reworked version of the DB franchise has achieved years of success and following, so why wouldn't they be committed to the legacy of its past dubs? I may not like what they've done to the series, but I don't understand why fans should expect better, or demand (from FUNi) better, in 2018. In 2008, 2003 maybe, but now...??

If they really cared about keeping true to the same version that gained success and thus keeping true to what the fans they've cultivated want, they wouldn't have snubbed their entire voice cast in 1998 by replacing them with a bunch of nobodies doing half-decent impressions who were hired from a newspaper ad, they wouldn't have junked the script adaptation/writing team over the course of 1998-2000, they wouldn't have replaced the guy doing the score three goddamn times(Wasserman scored the Saban dub, he was replaced by Faulconer for the in-house dub, he was replaced by Menza for GT, and he was replaced by Nathan Johnson for "Ultimate Uncut"), they wouldn't have kept the original Japanese score for OG Dragon Ball, Kai, TFC, Super, the post-1995 movies, or the default tracks on all the post-2006 DVDs/BDs, they wouldn't have done that weird rap thing in GT, and they wouldn't have suddenly massively improved their scripting, accuracy, etc. and recast several roles like Gohan and Freeza for Kai.

The problem with the modern dubs is that they don't properly cater to either kind of fan; the oldschool dub fans aren't happy because you've got controversial recasts like Gohan, the scripts are kept much more accurate leading to various changes in the show as they're used to it, such as Goku's different characterisation... But, the scripts still are a total mess that kind of somewhat try to keep to the old crappy dubs in terms of names and unnecessary additional jokes and such, which keeps the more hardcore Japanese-focused fans like myself ever annoyed.

Special Beam Cannon doesn't work as a name and is even nonsensical. Even Nimbus Cloud and Power Pole, two of my favourite names in anime, are hammy in a way that the originals are not intending to be.

Honestly I think Special Beam Cannon is a decent name for the attack, and that it makes about as much sense as Makankousappou. Most of the meaning still remains underneath. Power Pole's not too bad either.

Makankosappo means demonic piercing light murder gun. "Special Beam Cannon" utterly lacks any similarities to that original meaning, aside from the fact you could render that last word as "Cannon" or "Beam". Even Viz's rendering of it, The Light Of Death, is closer than Funi's "Special Beam Cannon"... It's a decent name for the attack in the same way that Red Body Punch would be a decent name for Kaioken(And, to be clear, Kaioken = Kaio + ken, with Kaio being the character known in the dubs as King Kai, whose name is alternately rendered as the untranslated "Kaio" or the translated "Lord Of Worlds" by Viz(Though the subs only ever refer to him as "Kaio"), and ken means fist(Ryuuken = Ryuu + ken = Dragon Fist). In other words, Kaioken = Fist Of The Lord Of Worlds, or for dub-fans, King Kai Fist).

As for "Power pole", the Nyoi'Bo and the Kinto'Un are the implements used in Journey To The West by Sun Wukong the monkey king, or as his name reads in Japanese, Son Goku. Changing stuff like this screws up the Journey To The West ties that informed the first story arc of the series and the initial main cast. Changing names like these robs these things of a lot of their intended depth; while leaving the names untranslated often means they don't have any immediate meaning to the casual viewer, it often begs the question in people "What exactly does it mean?", and digging into that can really get you started on the fascinating route of digging into the philosophical ties and other subtleties of Toriyama's writings, something I understand Derek Padula digs quite deep into in his many books on Dragon Ball. Changing these names such that they have their own silly Americanised names like "Power pole" or "Flying nimbus" kind of robs the show of these ties, and changing the names in this manner to be these cheesy Americanised names robs these elements of a lot of their mysticism. It would be like if a translation of a series based on the king Arthur mythos renamed Excalibur to The Mighty Blade.

And ultimately, the dub names of these things have no real meaning. "Power pole", "Flying Nimbus", and "Special Beam Cannon" mean basically nothing. The original names for them wouldn't mean much to someone who doesn't want to look it up, but ultimately what that means is that people who don't care to look it up will only know them by these cheesy Americanised names which lack any meaning of their own at all, while the Japanese names very clearly mean something, the viewer simply doesn't know what it means, so if they look it up, they'll find out what it refers to, potentially leading them to gain a greater understanding of the subtleties of the story.
So, for those who don't care, you could argue it doesn't matter what it means, but for people who don't care, it won't matter whether it's the immediately recognisable in English dub names or the romanised Japanese names, whereas if you do care, it's important that the Japanese names are kept, so naturally it tracks that the correct choice should be to go for the original Japanese names, by this logic.

In short: No, "Special Beam Cannon" is not a decent name for the attack, and yes, "Power Pole" really is too bad.