Analyzing the OLD movies

[Taisa732]

Hello there!
I've recently had the opportunity to watch the original 16 movies and had some thoughts about them, so I thought I'd share them with however is willing to listen, especially because they become relevant again lately.

Before I start I need to point out a couple of things about me, since I'm relatively new here.
My philosophy when I analyse a story, and especially Dragon Ball, is to go very in depth with the characters and the characterisation. I also try and keep an objective point of view and detach myself from my personal preference.
Same goes for storytelling in general.

The other thing is that I don't intend to analyse the first DB moves, because they are very different form the “Z era” movies and can be examined separately form each other and form the other 13.

STORY
With all of this out of the way let's start this little project, and what better way to do it than to talk about story tropes. Dragon Ball in itself is full of recurrent scenarios that we see over and over and as an audience we've learned to recognize.
The problem with this writhing style is not the fact that they are present, but how the are executed and inserted.
Let's look at the original manga for example, Toriyama uses them through the story, but even if it doesn't always work in his favour the majority of them are at least surrounded by other original stuff. You know they exist and they are there, but ultimately they don't bother too much because you are distracted by interesting situations that are going on in the meantime that help to distract, if even for a brief moment... until you realize that what you saw you saw it a billion other times.

Now let's play a little game, what move am I talking about if I summarise it like this:
The good guys are doing stuff. The bad guys henchman arrive and start a brawl. Everybody is defeated so Goku need to come and help out. He eventually gets to face the main bad dude, maybe with the help of a friend that has an epic entrance but gets knocked out in two seconds. Goku himself is almost beaten, but then he remembers the Genkidama. The day is safe.
I would like to know how many got it right, if anything for my own amusement, other than to just make a point.
The answer? Basically every move from 1 to 7, with the exception for maybe 6.
There are story tropes, and then there is just repeating the same exact story at least six times!

I do understand that, at the time, the manga was still on going so it wasn't as easy to create a story that could fit in the original while trying to be innovative. But that is the beauty of storytelling!
Even if you are confined by a bigger (and much better) story you can be imaginative or fun and create a small little tale. Make it seam like a little story in a larger one that “someone forgot to tell”.
In other words I am willing to forgive the discrepancy with the source material, but not the boring and repetitive way the stories are being told.

Plus I do want to point out that by the thousandth time you see Goku going for the Genkidama it loses all it's grandiosity. In the manga it's always a big deal when he does it and it usually involves other character that have to hold off the enemy. Also making for very tense moments, that are completely missing in most of the movies that make use for this technique.

CHARACTERS
Here is where things get even more... mh, let's say erroneous (?).
Like I said at the beginning, characters are my main focus. I am convinced that you can tell a good story just by having a good cast of characters in an empty room with hardly any environment at all if the characters in question are well written!
Yes, you can love Dragon Ball for the action, because you love guys punching each other to death (sometimes literally), but what you probably don't realise is that it is not the reason you keep coming back. When people ask me why do I like DB I always answer that “you're attracted by the fights, but you stay for the characters”.
What that means is that you what to see Goku (or, insert you favourite character here) win against the bad guy of the day, but you cheer him on because you want to see him get better.
The second time you see the same piece of the story you'll know who will win and how, but your fillings toward the characters are still the same, if not grown even more.

Where am I going with this?
There are two if not three characters that suffer from bad writing tropes that have nothing to do with there original characterisation.

First of all let's start with Kuririn. Who is Kuririn in the series? Aside of being Goku's best friend he is a martial artist that most often than not finds himself in situations that he can barely handle, but that doesn't mean he doesn't try.
Despite looking goofy he is not the comedic sidekick. When things are serious he's ready to fight at his best like everybody else.
In the movies he become the comic relief... nothing else.
Do you see a problem with that, or is it just me? Here we have a character that has much more depth to him just relegated to look and behave in a very silly way. His scenes are reduced to him being punched or have something stupid happening to him ether as a consequence of somebody else's actions or his own.
He usually is the only one that gets hit and ridiculed.
And this completely misses the point of not only Toriyama's sense of humor, but his entire world-building that is based on comedy. Believe it or not.
The only good thing that comes out of it is that the animation on Kuririn is usually very well executed.

The other two come in a bit of a package, if only because they have the same role, just in different moments of the main story. So much so that you can barely tell them apart.
Piccolo and Vegeta have the exact same gimmick. They arrive with a grandiose entry, but then they just get kicked off the screen a moment later. It gets so obnoxious that in some moves you have the same exact thing twice in a row (movies 7 and 9, for example).
The role that is being giving to them is of the “cool guy that looks awesome, but non to cool that overshadows the protagonist”.
And I could sit here telling you way this is bad, on a storytelling point of view, but I won't start a storytelling 101 class and point out how it could've worked better in each movie, I'll just say that this becomes a story trope that exists only in the movies.

But honestly Piccolo gets off easy, because by far Vegeta is probably the character that gets the worst characterization in the movies!
Where do I even start with this? Well... let me get one thing off my chest before I go on a rant: Takao Koyama does not know how to write Vegeta in the slightest.
And that isn't only in the movies. I already talked about my heated for DBZ episode 81 during the DBZ Rewatch, and if you care to read my thoughts on that abomination enjoy: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=41849

Also, shout out to movie 3 Goku that actually has a line like “we need to help the animals first”. Can't get more uncharacteristic than that.

VILLAINS
Before I get to this topic I have to point out that the movies have a big factor that works against them in general: time.
Dragon Ball relays on it's villains. For every saga what can make or breaks the action is a good bad guy/enemy/adversary/dude you need to beat up, if you have a boring one nobody cares if the final boss is just there without a personality.

But what makes a good bad guy? A lot of things actually, it depends on what type of enemy you are putting against our heroes.
Do you want a sympathetic villain that has his own agenda that you can relate to, like Tenshinhan, a cruel monster that makes you shiver and fear for our protagonists life, like Freeza, or an unpredictable pile of goo with the mind of a child, like Majinbu?
This is why all of our enemies are so different, but it's also true that Toriyama had chapters and chapters to create and characterize each and every one of them. Movies don't have this possibility having an average of 30/40 minutes where they have to establish the villain, give him/it motivation to go against the good guys, make the heroes lose and find the path to victory.

This isn't easy, but they are also a bit of a hit or miss bunch of enemies. I wouldn't analyse all of them one by one (it would take too long), but here are some quick thoughts on all of them.
Garlic Jr. is interesting, especially because his grudge is against Kami, not Goku. On the other hand, to remember movie 2 villain you really need to think hard, he's really forgettable. I would've liked Tullece better if he wasn't just “evil Goku” (worst of all since the explanation for being so similar is just a throw away line such as “low class warriors are all alike”, that's just stupid). I like Slug, being an evil namekian, and the whistling thing is unique. Coola is easily one of the best, in his favour there is the fact that he as a decent motivation. The Androids of movie 7 are just there. The less I talk about Broli the better. Bojack is interesting, he's one of the few I would've liked to see a bit more about. Janenba is cool for what he is, he has some very fascinating techniques and that makes him fun to watch. And finally Hildegarn isn't the real focus of his movie, so he is fine.

CHARACTER DESIGN
A good enemy can't just be good from a characterisation point of view, he also need to look the part.
But I'll say this strait on, nether Maeda Minoru or Tadayoshi Yamamuro (before he decided to just give up his talent) are on the same level of Toriyama when it comes to designs (at least in the Dragon Ball world).
There is always something unique about Toriyama's way to create a character and even the minor cast has a way to stand out in his own way.
While I was watching movies 1 and 2, for example, I thought that all of the minions look out of place and didn't belong in this universe (this is also a problem I have with a lot of Dragon Ball fillers where characters just seem out of place).

WHY I HATE MOVIE 8
Let me thread the line for a moment, at the start of this talkative monologue I've said that I usually analyse stories from an objective and detached point of view, and I still am, but I have a bone to pick with this one.
Before I start, let me get one thing clear: if you enjoy this movie more power to you, this is simply a different opinion than yours and I'm not trying to change your mind.

Now... where do I even begin, well the best is probably something we've been talking about this entire time: characters.
Nowhere more than here all the problems about Koyama's interpretation of the characters is more evident, and once again I reaffirm how Kuririn is relegate to sidekick, alongside with Kamesennin. Because there is no better thing than having the action interrupted just to have comedic sketches that aren't funny and don't go anywhere, am I right?

And then there is the big one, the worst piece of writing from Koyama that, like I've said, can... not... write Vegeta... in... the slightest. Who the hell is this guy and why is he replacing the prince of saiyans?
“Vegeta” comes across as cowardly, stupid and easily manipulated and nothing can be worst than looking at this puppet that is substituting a well loved character in the most offensive way possible.

I don't even want to go into the villain side of things, if anything to respect people who like him, but at least can we all agree that having him held a grudge against Goku because he was noisy as a newborn is one of the stupidest things that is ever being written ever?
(The new movie better fix all of this!)

I could go on and on about this “movie” and wreck it bit by bit, but I don't think it's worth my time or yours.
Again, if you like it good for you I hope you keep enjoying it, but me personally this is the only movie I can't even watch, it's that bad for me. Seriously I'd rather go watch GT (and that's saying something).

CONCLUSIONS
I think that at this point I've annoyed you enough, so even if I could go on and on for a looooong time, I'll start to wrap things up.
With the exception of movie 8 (that is just bad) I think there is something good and something bad in everyone of them. Non of them is on par with the source material, being predictable or uncharacteristic for some characters.
But even if some of them are enjoyable in there one right, depending mostly on personal preference, they are not much more that fan fictions written by someone how didn't fully understand the characters or the world they lived in. I did have the pleasure to read better fan fictions that are better structured and keep in line with Toriyama's work. It's not impossible to do.
Ultimately I think my problem is Koyama himself, I would've rather have ether somebody else entirely writing the scripts or multiple people to do so, instead of putting all the eggs into one basket.

The movies are ok at best, they are just there if you need you Dragon Ball fix and don't have the time to go tough the entire series. Me personally I'll probably watch them all again in an other couple of years or so, and remember why I hate movie 8 once more.

If you've read all of this till the end (if anyone), fist of all thanks for doing so, but most importantly what do you think about the movies?

Sorry it was so long, at least I hope it was interesting, and I hope I didn't make a mess when posting it.

[Dragon Sponge]

You made a good Job listing the flaws of the Z era Movies, i would say that their biggest problems are the sameyness, and wasted potential for certain Chracters, while their biggest benefits are the music they provided for the series, some interesting concepts and that some of the lesser used Characters get atleast something to do. One day i will make my Dragon Ball Alternate Fanfiction, which will be a rewrite of the mainstory (with the inclusion of filler and movie stories) with the goal of using the wasted Characters better. When I cover the Movies I will try to fix some of their Flaws. One question, how do you think about the first 3 pre Z movies, that where made before Koyama and Morishita joined the crew?

[coola]

I always wondered why they even bothered putting Earthlings in DBZ Movie 3 and 9, if all they did was getting their butt kicked by minions of main bad guys? I agree about Kuririn getting reduced to comic relief, at least Piccolo and Trunks manager to kill someone, Vegeta was pretty helpful too.

As for Vegeta in DBZ Movie 8, he was always obsessed with Legendary Super Saiyan (Especially when Goku arrived during fight with Ginyu Force, he wouldn't shut up about it until he died ) and believed he is unstoppable force, and then Broly appears, and is exactly like one, no wonder he lost it, he also lost his will to fight, when Freeza in his true form deflected his strongest blast with just a kick.

I'm really curious how they gonna show Vegeta in upcoming Broly movie

[Taisa732]

One question, how do you think about the first 3 pre Z movies, that where made before Koyama and Morishita joined the crew?

I think that the DB era movies are a bit of a different case. I find interesting the fact that they try to retell the manga in there one way, but I fear they don't always do it very well.
The result is that we have some borderline boring movies with waisted potential.
Movie 1 is very dull, it doesn't add much to the table ad tells a story already well told in the source material. If it had a different prospective then it would've been more memorable and could've stand out. As it is it's forgettable.

Fortunately they learned the lesson and as a result movie 2 is a much better product exactly for that reason. It adds new characters and tells the story with a completely new spin to it. It's atmospheric and probably the most beautiful to look at overall, it' also more unpredictable even if you know the original. But it's a bit too dark, contrasting a little too much with Dragon Ball, especially for where the series was at the time.
With that said it is still worth it and it's probably one of the best.

I think that movie 3 has a better balance, it tells an alternative story, but it is still colourful and it stick better to Toriyama's world. It also benefits from the fact that they had a lot more material to recreate, therefore a lot more character to implement and stories they could tell.
They also use Chiaotzu better that Toriyama himself ever did, even if he is a minor character.
If I had to pick I'd say that of the three it's my personal favourite, probably because I like alternative universe type of scenarios.

Hope that answers your question. And good luck with your project, sounds like you've been thinking about it for some time.

As for Vegeta in DBZ Movie 8, he was always obsessed with Legendary Super Saiyan (Especially when Goku arrived during fight with Ginyu Force, he wouldn't shut up about it until he died ) and believed he is unstoppable force, and then Broly appears, and is exactly like one, no wonder he lost it, he also lost his will to fight, when Freeza in his true form deflected his strongest blast with just a kick.

Oh boy. Ok, here is the thing and the reason way I didn't want to talk about Broli in this post... I think that the “legendary super saiyan” is simply foolish, and that is an euphemism.

First of all, what is a legend? Here is how the dictionary definition for it “a traditional story sometimes popularly regarded as historical but not authenticated” (and yes, I am actually quoting the dictionary).
The point is that the “legendary super saiyan” isn't and actual thing, it's more of a legend that changed over time and become much more majestic that it was originally.
A real “legendary super saiyan” doesn't make sense because its not a transformation, it's a saiyan that become a super saiyan (Yamoshi if you want) and his legend has been told generation after generation like a bed time story for kids. Freeza even calls it that to making fun of Vegeta, reminding him that it is just what it is (or what he though it was).

Vegeta's obsession is based on that. When he has a kid he was told that this powerful saiyan was real and it had to appear sooner than later. Also being the prince and a child prodigy he was destined to become that warrior.
That is way he's so obsessed with it on Namecc and way he's so angry and frustrated when is Goku who unlocks it first.
At this point he should not be obsessed with this legend for two reasons, first because he's become a super saiyan himself and second because he moved on form it. Now that he possesses the power to become blond he doesn't care about a bed time story for kids, he just wants to become even more strong and beat Kakarot.

Also, when he loses the will to fight against Freeza he does it because he had years of hatred and rage build against him. He was a glorified slave that wanted nothing else than to get his freedom with his own hands and reclaim the number one status that in his mind was rightfully his.
In that moment he thought he could do it and get his long desidered freedom, only to realize how much more powerful Freeza is.
The entire atmosphere is different and is the reason why it's also so impactful and full of meaning.

Broli is just a dude that is strong, and Vegeta never stops fighting if he finds himself against a strong opponent. It's why he always gets beaten up.
He absolutely isn't a coward that stops just because his opponent is strong, that is just wrong on a characterisation point of view.

I hope the new movie gets this right.

[Dragon Sponge]

One question, how do you think about the first 3 pre Z movies, that where made before Koyama and Morishita joined the crew?

I think that the DB era movies are a bit of a different case. I find interesting the fact that they try to retell the manga in there one way, but I fear they don't always do it very well.
The result is that we have some borderline boring movies with waisted potential.
Movie 1 is very dull, it doesn't add much to the table ad tells a story already well told in the source material. If it had a different prospective then it would've been more memorable and could've stand out. As it is it's forgettable.

Fortunately they learned the lesson and as a result movie 2 is a much better product exactly for that reason. It adds new characters and tells the story with a completely new spin to it. It's atmospheric and probably the most beautiful to look at overall, it' also more unpredictable even if you know the original. But it's a bit too dark, contrasting a little too much with Dragon Ball, especially for where the series was at the time.
With that said it is still worth it and it's probably one of the best.

I think that movie 3 has a better balance, it tells an alternative story, but it is still colourful and it stick better to Toriyama's world. It also benefits from the fact that they had a lot more material to recreate, therefore a lot more character to implement and stories they could tell.
They also use Chiaotzu better that Toriyama himself ever did, even if he is a minor character.
If I had to pick I'd say that of the three it's my personal favourite, probably because I like alternative universe type of scenarios.

Hope that answers your question. And good luck with your project, sounds like you've been thinking about it for some time.

Thank you, and yes i´m thinking about it for quite some time, I already planned out all the chapters it shall have, and i also made key points about what shall happen in the first 26 Chapters, but I also still get new ideas sometimes. In Israelite Wolfman´s thread: "Which Human character would you incorporate in past stories and why?" I talked about several ideas of it, starting from the 13th Post on page 2. (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38270&start=20)

And what DB Movie 1 concerns, I will incorporate it´s story in the "Goku travels the World" filler section, where it will be more of it´s own story, instead of an retelling. I will also interconnect it´s events with the Red Ribbon Arc.

I probably will start writing this Fanfiction down after I finished collecting the german Manga of Dragon Ball (last one i bought was Volume 32).

[Taisa732]

One question, how do you think about the first 3 pre Z movies, that where made before Koyama and Morishita joined the crew?

I think that the DB era movies are a bit of a different case. I find interesting the fact that they try to retell the manga in there one way, but I fear they don't always do it very well.
The result is that we have some borderline boring movies with waisted potential.
Movie 1 is very dull, it doesn't add much to the table ad tells a story already well told in the source material. If it had a different prospective then it would've been more memorable and could've stand out. As it is it's forgettable.

Fortunately they learned the lesson and as a result movie 2 is a much better product exactly for that reason. It adds new characters and tells the story with a completely new spin to it. It's atmospheric and probably the most beautiful to look at overall, it' also more unpredictable even if you know the original. But it's a bit too dark, contrasting a little too much with Dragon Ball, especially for where the series was at the time.
With that said it is still worth it and it's probably one of the best.

I think that movie 3 has a better balance, it tells an alternative story, but it is still colourful and it stick better to Toriyama's world. It also benefits from the fact that they had a lot more material to recreate, therefore a lot more character to implement and stories they could tell.
They also use Chiaotzu better that Toriyama himself ever did, even if he is a minor character.
If I had to pick I'd say that of the three it's my personal favourite, probably because I like alternative universe type of scenarios.

Hope that answers your question. And good luck with your project, sounds like you've been thinking about it for some time.

Thank you, and yes i´m thinking about it for quite some time, I already planned out all the chapters it shall have, and i also made key points about what shall happen in the first 26 Chapters, but I also still get new ideas sometimes. In Israelite Wolfman´s thread: "Which Human character would you incorporate in past stories and why?" I talked about several ideas of it, starting from the 13th Post on page 2. (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38270&start=20)

And what DB Movie 1 concerns, I will incorporate it´s story in the "Goku travels the World" filler section, where it will be more of it´s own story, instead of an retelling. I will also interconnect it´s events with the Red Ribbon Arc.

I probably will start writing this Fanfiction down after I finished collecting the german Manga of Dragon Ball (last one i bought was Volume 32).

Sounds like a tough job I wish you luck.

[Dragon Sponge]

I think that the DB era movies are a bit of a different case. I find interesting the fact that they try to retell the manga in there one way, but I fear they don't always do it very well.
The result is that we have some borderline boring movies with waisted potential.
Movie 1 is very dull, it doesn't add much to the table ad tells a story already well told in the source material. If it had a different prospective then it would've been more memorable and could've stand out. As it is it's forgettable.

Fortunately they learned the lesson and as a result movie 2 is a much better product exactly for that reason. It adds new characters and tells the story with a completely new spin to it. It's atmospheric and probably the most beautiful to look at overall, it' also more unpredictable even if you know the original. But it's a bit too dark, contrasting a little too much with Dragon Ball, especially for where the series was at the time.
With that said it is still worth it and it's probably one of the best.

I think that movie 3 has a better balance, it tells an alternative story, but it is still colourful and it stick better to Toriyama's world. It also benefits from the fact that they had a lot more material to recreate, therefore a lot more character to implement and stories they could tell.
They also use Chiaotzu better that Toriyama himself ever did, even if he is a minor character.
If I had to pick I'd say that of the three it's my personal favourite, probably because I like alternative universe type of scenarios.

Hope that answers your question. And good luck with your project, sounds like you've been thinking about it for some time.

Thank you, and yes i´m thinking about it for quite some time, I already planned out all the chapters it shall have, and i also made key points about what shall happen in the first 26 Chapters, but I also still get new ideas sometimes. In Israelite Wolfman´s thread: "Which Human character would you incorporate in past stories and why?" I talked about several ideas of it, starting from the 13th Post on page 2. (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38270&start=20)

And what DB Movie 1 concerns, I will incorporate it´s story in the "Goku travels the World" filler section, where it will be more of it´s own story, instead of an retelling. I will also interconnect it´s events with the Red Ribbon Arc.

I probably will start writing this Fanfiction down after I finished collecting the german Manga of Dragon Ball (last one i bought was Volume 32).

Sounds like a tough job I wish you luck.

Thank you very much!