Who are the best written couple in DB?

[Kinokima]

If you think Vegeta & Bulma are only popular because they are individually popular characters then yes you don’t understand why this is a popular pairing.

I guess I don’t understand why its a popular couple for any reason other than Vegeta is a popular character and Bulma is a female character who isn’t Chi Chi. (IS 18 x Vegeta a thing in Dragon Ball Fanshipper circles?)

I get the popularity in Super because Vegeta has been shown to be a far better husband than Son Goku. But in DBZ?

Let’s say the villain gets with the heroine and turns good is a popular trope. And yeah I get that Bulma isn’t a heroine in a traditional sense but it does still fit. Plus I think people like the fact that Bulma could tell Vegeta off.

Is Bulma & Vegeta a realistic pairing, not at all. But it’s fantasy.

Yes the way Toriyama wrote Vegeta & Bulma and the lack of scenes is not the best. No one is saying it was popular because it was well written. It was popular despite that. A lot of people actually liked the mystery of how they got together. And while I would prefer someone drill Toriyama about it. It lead to constant fanficion and fan doujinshi. So the mystery surrounding their relationship probably made it more popular.

Also I am not saying the fact that Vegeta & Bulma are both individually popular didn’t help I am just saying there are other factors at work here.

A lot of stuff you see in modern Dragon Ball in regards to Vegeta & Bulma in my opinion were influenced by fan works of the past.

As for Vegeta/18 that’s non-canon. You can find non-canon fan works of almost everything so yes it exists but it doesn’t seem terribly popular.

Actually the most popular Dragon Ball ship is probably Goku & Vegeta.

That speaks way more to the ridiculousness of shipping in fandom in the first place. Especially a work of fiction like Dragon Ball

I find shipping arguments ridiculous but people enjoying romance in Dragon Ball doesn’t seem ridiculous at all to me. And while Vegeta/Bulma may be my favorite I personally enjoy all the canon ships despite how Toriyama initially wrote them they all work for me

I also don’t agree that Vegeta is a better husband/father than Goku and find that argument especially tiresome. Vegeta is of course 100% better than he was. But he is still not perfect, neither is Goku. But I personally think both Vegeta & Goku’s imperfections lies in the fact that they at the end of the day they are still aliens. Those imperfections endear me to them and at the end of the day imperfections are actually realistic. What is important to me is I feel both Goku & Vegeta love their families and their families love them & for who they are . It doesn’t matter that they aren’t perfect.

[zarmack]

Honestly, Goku wanting Vegeta to be spared to fight him later is an odd one too, Goku had no problems thinking that he killed Tao Pai Pai or King Piccolo, never even regretted "killing" them because he wanted to fight them again later on, but then starting with Piccolo he wanted to spare some people to fight them later (Somewhat justified with Piccolo since killing him would kill Kami, he doesn't want that, but he also says he doesn't want to lose his "arch enemy"), so arguably the Vegeta being spared one is arguably even worse since it contradicts how he acted before.

Actually, Kami himself insisted dying with Piccolo at the end of the 23rd TB (it was Kami that was about to deliver the killing blow), plus they could always just find a new guardian. Goku merely stopped Kami from doing this because he wanted to fight Piccolo again later, just like he did with Vegeta.

[Lukmendes]

Honestly, Goku wanting Vegeta to be spared to fight him later is an odd one too, Goku had no problems thinking that he killed Tao Pai Pai or King Piccolo, never even regretted "killing" them because he wanted to fight them again later on, but then starting with Piccolo he wanted to spare some people to fight them later (Somewhat justified with Piccolo since killing him would kill Kami, he doesn't want that, but he also says he doesn't want to lose his "arch enemy"), so arguably the Vegeta being spared one is arguably even worse since it contradicts how he acted before.

Actually, Kami himself insisted dying with Piccolo at the end of the 23rd TB (it was Kami that was about to deliver the killing blow), plus they could always just find a new guardian. Goku merely stopped Kami from doing this because he wanted to fight Piccolo again later, just like he did with Vegeta.

I did say that part of the reason Goku didn't want Piccolo to be killed was to be able to fight him later on, but Goku also didn't want Kami to die, Kami himself wanting to die doesn't change that, after all, if a friend wants to kill himself, it's only natural to want to stop him, so "they can find a new guardian", even if they could, doesn't mean Goku will let a friend die for that.

Here, pages from the manga showing it's because of both reasons:

https://i.imgur.com/5Nq2biQ.png

https://i.imgur.com/frRwRre.png

https://i.imgur.com/2PFBbSX.png

[ABED]

It's how shipping works overall, sometimes just the idea of two characters being together is enough for people, and while there isn't much for Vegeta and Bulma, the self destruct moment and Bulma somehow feeling that Vegeta was dead shows that there was something in there, those moments being one of the few good romantic moments in the series help too, and fans like to fill in the rest with their imagination.

Not what I would call a romantic moment. You rarely see them together. I know how shipping works. And "the rest" in this case is a whole hell of a lot. Much of the love stems from the idea as almost all there is is the idea. I don't think there's enough there to consider them a well written couple. At least Goku and Chichi are written as a couple even if they just don't work.

Gohan and Videl are the best for obvious reasons, then followed by 18 and Kuririn whose meet cute and connection is shown. It's not all off-screen.

I don't find shipping arguments inherently ridiculous anymore than any other discussion. There's great fodder for discussion in with issues like what constitutes connection, what is chemistry, what's a healthy relationship, etc. To use DB as an example, it's very interesting to discuss what should be seen or not or what leaps can DB get away with that a more grounded story couldn't.

[Izanagi]

I made a common sense assumption based on your opinions about these relationships. Hardly an ad hominem since I made no value judgements about you.

Alright, fair enough.

You didn't address my rebuttals to your complaints about Bulma.

I didn't address anything, because I already said what I had to say. Characters flaws are not flaws unless the narratives acknowledges them as such. That's why Vegeta by virtue is a flawed character, because Vegeta's arrogance has always been proven to be his undoing time and again, leading him to losing many of his fights, including losing his own life as well as his son's on one occasion. In the case with Bulma, her flaws such as being a narcissistic hypocritical loudmouth goes unaddressed by the narratives and is brushed off as comic relief.

How a (potential) couple interacts on a regular basis is what makes them great or bad. Neither VegeBul nor GoChi would be as popular if they are for over 2 decades if they were really that awful (especially for a non-romantic series like DB).

Appeal to popularity fallacy. A couple having a lot of popularity or followers means nothing and is not a reflective of a couple's quality in the terms of the narratives. Sasuke Uchiha and Sakura Haruno from Naruto for instance are by far the most popular hetero pairing of their series and they're anything but well-written, which debunks the whole “popularity equates to good writing” argument.

Rape and abortion are by no means excluded topics in Shonen and Shojo anime/manga (there are many series in those demographics that feature these things) . Japan has different standards for what is acceptable in children's media. You also ignored my rebuttal to your last argument: If Toriyama intended Vegeta to have zero interest in sex and romance then he would have never made VegeBul a reality at all, like how Tien x Lunch never became a reality despite the latter's canon attraction to the former. And even if he did, people change their interests and lifestyles all the time in real life.

I didn't ignore anything, I was responding to your original post before it got edited and Doctor already beat it to you why Toriyama made Vegeta and Bulma a thing -- Toriyama doesn't include romance in the story because he likes it or he's making some statement, he includes it because it's practical to continue the story, Vegeta and Bulma existed solely because Toriyama wanted more Saiyan characters in the ensemble cast, but all of them bar Goku and Vegeta were wiped out. It's that simple, really.

Never said rape and abortions are obscure topics in shonen manga, but Dragon Ball (and by association, Akira Toriyama) is not the type of series that tackles upon any obscure topics and is trying to sell you a moral, it does what it's best at doing and that is to provide entertainment. If Dragon Ball started changing the thematics to a psychological/thriller structure, actually dedicating volumes to give his readers an introspection of the characters' psyche, then this series doesn't "feel" like Dragon Ball anymore.

[Kinokima]

It's how shipping works overall, sometimes just the idea of two characters being together is enough for people, and while there isn't much for Vegeta and Bulma, the self destruct moment and Bulma somehow feeling that Vegeta was dead shows that there was something in there, those moments being one of the few good romantic moments in the series help too, and fans like to fill in the rest with their imagination.

Not what I would call a romantic moment. You rarely see them together. I know how shipping works. And "the rest" in this case is a whole hell of a lot. Much of the love stems from the idea as almost all there is is the idea. I don't think there's enough there to consider them a well written couple. At least Goku and Chichi are written as a couple even if they just don't work.

Gohan and Videl are the best for obvious reasons, then followed by 18 and Kuririn whose meet cute and connection is shown. It's not all off-screen.

And neither is Vegeta & Bulma anymore so this argument is a moot point. Dragon Ball is not just DBZ.

Saying Vegeta sacrificing himself for Bulma & Trunks and deciding to fuse with Goku because of Bulma. It shows he has fallen in love with her over time despite himself. Not every romance has to be traditionally romantic.


And really Kuririn and 18 had barely any interaction. Most of their romance happened off screen also in the 7 years between Cell & Buu.

Kuririn didn’t know anything about 18 except she kissed him. That’s hardly the best set up for a romance.

Vegeta lived at CC with Bulma so having them make love after living together for some time is not as impossible as you make it out to be. And again they fell in love after the Cell arc in a period of DBZ that we don’t see. Showing Vegeta’s love for Bulma & Trunks before Final Atonement and the ultimate decision he makes would have lost its impact if we knew Vegeta had come to love his family before this in the Buu saga.


But that’s besides the point because now that Vegeta has embraced his love for his family it is shown in modern Dragon Ball.

[ABED]

And really Kuririn and 18 had barely any interaction. Most of their romance happened off screen also in the 7 years between Cell & Buu.

Except how they met and their initial interactions where they started to develop feelings for each other. Kuririn got a kiss and couldn't get it out of his head. 18 saw Kuririn destroy the shut down controller and try to save her from Cell. He wished for the bomb inside her gone. And for her part, there was not just the initial kiss, and when she leaves the Heavenly Realm, even after she yells at him, she stops say "later" as in "I want to see you again". All this happens ON SCREEN. We don't need to see them date, it's been sufficiently set up. All of Bulma and Vegeta's development happens in the gaps we don't see.

Saying Vegeta sacrificing himself for Bulma & Trunks and deciding to fuse with Goku because of Bulma.

Again, a moment that isn't between them. Yes, he has feelings for her, all of which were developed off screen and were never shown, just talked about. Also, existence is about to be destroyed. Vegeta isn't fusing with Goku for Bulma.

Vegeta lived at CC with Bulma so having them make love after living together for some time is not as impossible as you make it out to be.

I didn't say it was impossible, but it needed to be shown. Go back to my Empire Strikes Back example.

The power of Vegeta giving his life comes mostly from his interactions with Trunks which we do see.

[Kinokima]

And really Kuririn and 18 had barely any interaction. Most of their romance happened off screen also in the 7 years between Cell & Buu.

Except how they met and their initial interactions where they started to develop feelings for each other. Kuririn got a kiss and couldn't get it out of his head. 18 saw Kuririn destroy the shut down controller and try to save her from Cell. He wished for the bomb inside her gone. And for her part, there was not just the initial kiss, and when she leaves the Heavenly Realm, even after she yells at him, she stops say "later" as in "I want to see you again". All this happens ON SCREEN. We don't need to see them date, it's been sufficiently set up. All of Bulma and Vegeta's development happens in the gaps we don't see.

I understand why 18 would fall for Kuririn after all he did for her but him falling for her from one kiss directly after she fought all his friends is not good writing.

Again, a moment that isn't between them. Yes, he has feelings for her, all of which were developed off screen and were never shown, just talked about. Also, existence is about to be destroyed. Vegeta isn't fusing with Goku for Bulma.

Yes I get that it all off screen but that is the whole point we aren’t supposed to know Vegeta truly loves his family until that moment.

Goku is like “even Bulma” to Vegeta and he gets visibly upset and then decides to fuse. He was refusing up to that point.


Anyways I think you are arguing with 1/2 knowledge because Vegeta & Bulma do interact now. Maybe they didn’t have the best set up because romance is hardly Toriyama’s strong point but now that we know Vegeta has grown to love his family we get that interaction. I really don’t feel Modern DB should be taken out of the equation here and the only reason it is is because you haven’t watched it.

[ABED]

I understand why 18 would fall for Kuririn after all he did for her but him falling for her from one kiss directly after she fought all his friends is not good writing.

It's not just the kiss. It was never just the kiss. It was that the cyborgs aren't acting like Trunks claimed and instead of killing them all, they were just knocked out and she kissed him. He didn't know what it meant. That's not bad writing at all. He didn't fall in love with her, it was more of a crush that developed over time, especially when he realized she wasn't evil.

Yes I get that it all off screen but that is the whole point we aren’t supposed to know Vegeta truly loves his family until that moment.

But I don't feel his love for Bulma. It's talked, but not shown. His love of his son is something I feel because they interact.

I do think modern DB should be taken out of the equation because didn't you say they were popular prior to Super? I would argue yes given how big a reaction the scene in BoG where Vegeta loses his shit over Beerus hitting Bulma got.

Yes I get that it all off screen but that is the whole point we aren’t supposed to know Vegeta truly loves his family until that moment.

That's awful writing because it doesn't work. You don't need to keep the audience from seeing characters interact to keep something like that from the audience. It's a poorly designed mislead.

[Kinokima]

I understand why 18 would fall for Kuririn after all he did for her but him falling for her from one kiss directly after she fought all his friends is not good writing.

It's not just the kiss. It was never just the kiss. It was that the cyborgs aren't acting like Trunks claimed and instead of killing them all, they were just knocked out and she kissed him. He didn't know what it meant. That's not bad writing at all. He didn't fall in love with her, it was more of a crush that developed over time, especially when he realized she wasn't evil.

Yeah he developed a crush on the Androids who attacked bedtime and wanted to kill Goku because she kissed him. Wonderful writing. But because she kissed him it was alright. And also that in no shape or form doesn’t show she wasn’t evil.

I quite like 18/Kuririn but there was hardly an amazing set up for his feelings for her.


I agree with you about Gohan & Videl but not this.


And yes I said Bulma and Vegeta were popular before Super. I never said that was because of Toriyama’s romance writing I said they were popular DESPITE it. Still I can also understand why a lot of stuff with Vegeta & Bulma wasn’t shown because it’s meant to be a surprise to the audience.

It’s just when you say Vegeta & Bulma are bad because they don’t even interact and my point is now they do.


If we are only talking about how the romance was set up then I think only Gohan & Videl were good but I think what comes after counts and modern DB should very much count.

[ABED]

I understand why 18 would fall for Kuririn after all he did for her but him falling for her from one kiss directly after she fought all his friends is not good writing.

It's not just the kiss. It was never just the kiss. It was that the cyborgs aren't acting like Trunks claimed and instead of killing them all, they were just knocked out and she kissed him. He didn't know what it meant. That's not bad writing at all. He didn't fall in love with her, it was more of a crush that developed over time, especially when he realized she wasn't evil.

Yeah he developed a crush on the Androids who attacked bedtime and wanted to kill Goku because she kissed him. Wonderful writing. But because she kissed him it was alright. And also that in no shape or form doesn’t show she wasn’t evil.

I like 18/Kuririn but there was hardly an amazing set up for his feelings for her.


I agree with you about Gohan & Videl but not this.

This is in character for Kuririn, and 18 didn't kill anyone. While it doesn't prove definitively that she's good, it points to her not being what Trunks said.

It was a solid set up. It's subtle and again, it's not love. It's infatuation with who might be the first girl that kissed him. This is Kuririn, a character who wants desperately to get married. This is a world where the heroes let villains go for the sake of a fight and willing work with a villain who tried to kill them all. It's not a big leap to think Kuririn would develop a crush on the girl who kissed him and he can't understand why. It's all part of the mystery of that arc.

With Bulma and Vegeta not only is there no set up, there's also no reminder, there's just a limp payoff. I actually think there's plenty interesting about what few interactions we see from them, I just wish the foundation had been put down.

[Kinokima]

It's not just the kiss. It was never just the kiss. It was that the cyborgs aren't acting like Trunks claimed and instead of killing them all, they were just knocked out and she kissed him. He didn't know what it meant. That's not bad writing at all. He didn't fall in love with her, it was more of a crush that developed over time, especially when he realized she wasn't evil.

Yeah he developed a crush on the Androids who attacked bedtime and wanted to kill Goku because she kissed him. Wonderful writing. But because she kissed him it was alright. And also that in no shape or form doesn’t show she wasn’t evil.

I like 18/Kuririn but there was hardly an amazing set up for his feelings for her.


I agree with you about Gohan & Videl but not this.

This is in character for Kuririn, and 18 didn't kill anyone. While it doesn't prove definitively that she's good, it points to her not being what Trunks said.

It was a solid set up. It's subtle and again, it's not love. It's infatuation with who might be the first girl that kissed him. This is Kuririn, a character who wants desperately to get married. This is a world where the heroes let villains go for the sake of a fight and willing work with a villain who tried to kill them all. It's not a big leap to think Kuririn would develop a crush on the girl who kissed him and he can't understand why. It's all part of the mystery of that arc.

I mean and then they were off to kill Son Goku, Kuririn’s best friend.

It’s not subtle it’s just typical Toriyama romance writing.

[ABED]

Piccolo killed him and tried to kill everyone at the 23rd TB. They work with Vegeta. DB's a wacky world. 18 hadn't actually done anything yet and Kuririn has a bit of a savior complex when it comes to her. If they can put up with all that and become friends with former enemies, why is this a big buy?

I like it because it's in character and not said to be anything more than what it is - a crush that develops over time.

[Kinokima]

Piccolo killed him and tried to kill everyone at the 23rd TB. They work with Vegeta. DB's a wacky world. 18 hadn't actually done anything yet and Kuririn has a bit of a savior complex when it comes to her.

I like it because it's in character and not said to be anything more than what it is - a crush that develops over time.

I mean after 18 kissed Kuririn, her, 17, and 16 went off to kill Son Goku. This is not about working with former enemies it’s the fact that for all Kuririn knew 18 still was actively dangerous to someone he cares about. Someone kissing you doesn’t change that fact.


Romance was never Toriyama’s standpoint. Even he admits it in interviews and says he is too embarrassed to write the romantic moments but he knows what happens in his head.

[ABED]

They intended, but she never got that far and given how she doesn't kill anyone and seems to be doing what she was programmed to do for reasons she doesn't fully understand, and all of Kuririn's subsequent actions, it's not hard to believe he doesn't think she's evil and he can save her.

And I know it's not about working with former enemies. I'm saying in case you can't make the inference, it's a world where former enemies can very easily forgive each other. It's not hard to believe Kuririn wouldn't hold her mission to kill her friend against her anymore than he holds his murder against Piccolo. They all move on very quickly and easily.

Yes, Toriyama isn't great with romance, mostly because he doesn't concentrate on it, but in the world of DB, I buy 18/Kuririn. They aren't Jim/Pam, Leslie/Ben, Monica/Chandler, or Peyton/Lucas, but in DB, I enjoy them. I find their dynamic interesting.

[Kinokima]

Yes, Toriyama isn't great with romance, mostly because he doesn't concentrate on it, but in the world of DB, I buy 18/Kuririn.

Well that’s nice in the end I buy 18/Kuririn too despite how it was initially set up. But I can also in the end buy Vegeta/Bulma.

That doesn’t mean I don’t wish more was shown in Z but I’m happy with what we have now.

[ABED]

Yes, Toriyama isn't great with romance, mostly because he doesn't concentrate on it, but in the world of DB, I buy 18/Kuririn.

Well that’s nice in the end I buy 18/Kuririn too despite how it was initially set up. But I can also in the end buy Vegeta/Bulma.

That doesn’t mean I don’t wish more was shown in Z but I’m happy with what we have now.

I don't buy Vegeta and Bulma's set up because it all happens off screen. Kuririn and 18 happen on screen. We SEE them connect and we SEE why. Stories about about showing, not telling.

[Kinokima]

Yes, Toriyama isn't great with romance, mostly because he doesn't concentrate on it, but in the world of DB, I buy 18/Kuririn.

Well that’s nice in the end I buy 18/Kuririn too despite how it was initially set up. But I can also in the end buy Vegeta/Bulma.

That doesn’t mean I don’t wish more was shown in Z but I’m happy with what we have now.

I don't buy Vegeta and Bulma's set up because it all happens off screen. Kuririn and 18 happen on screen. We SEE them connect and we SEE why. Stories about about showing, not telling.

And I don’t buy Kuririn’s feelings for 18 after one kiss. There isn’t much to go for there

Vegeta and Bulma have a small interaction too where she says don’t do anything dirty with me and he calls her Vulgar. I could argue that is set up too since she is already flirting with him. Like I said initially it’s just sex not love.

I can also buy that Vegeta lives with and falls in love with his family over time and becomes attached to them. Yes we don’t see it because again its meant to be a surprise. Personally I think that is better than falling for someone because they kiss you once. But to each their own. Don’t really think either romance should win awards for best writing.

[ABED]

Bulma is a flirt, hardly a connection.

And I don’t buy Kuririn’s feelings for 18 after one kiss. There isn’t much to go for there

Why? She's beautiful, the first girl who's ever kissed him (besides a platonic kiss from Lunch), and he's confused by why he wasn't attacked or killed. He's always wanted to get married. It's something Toriyama touches on plenty of times. What isn't there to buy?

Yes we don’t see it because again its meant to be a surprise.
It's a crappy surprise, much like Goku's plan. In order to surprise the audience with his plan, Toriyama didn't have to have Goku keep it from the audience. Piccolo giving his life to save Gohan is genuinely surprising, but it's a relationship that's been built up. It's not playing fair with the audience if the only way you can keep a surprise is to not show anything to them prior.

Personally I think that is better than falling for someone because they kiss you once.

An badly executed surprise and no visible connection is better? You're being reductive when you refer to it as one kiss. It's the other things I mentioned.

No neither are well written romances, but Vegeta and Bulma is a non-written romance. It's literally not written. We don't see anything out of them until so recently. Even if Kuririn and 18 stemmed from a single kiss on the cheek, it's something.

[Kinokima]

Bulma is a flirt

Exactly she’s a flirt and Vegeta trained around her house half naked. The anime also did add interactions between them that weren’t in the manga

As for Vegeta falling for Bulma and Trunks he has been living with them for 7 years. It wasn’t the best but no it didn’t come from nowhere.

No neither are well written romances, but Vegeta and Bulma is a non-written romance. It's literally not written. We don't see anything out of them until so recently. Even if Kuririn and 18 stemmed from a single kiss on the cheek, it's something.

Yes we haven’t seen anything so recently because Dragon Ball has been off the air. But in the special Son Goku and Friends there is interaction between Bulma & Vegeta

In GT there is interaction between Bulma & Vegeta. At the end of Z we see they are still together and now have a daughter.

Interaction between them isn’t a recent as you make out. Now there is just a lot more because what can I say people like Vegeta and Bulma quite a bit.