Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
ABED wrote:I think DB is immortal, not because it keeps going, but because it is popular and keeps pulling in fans, just like films such as Jaws, Back to the Future, and The Wizard of Oz. Not saying it is or isn't as good as those films, just giving examples of works that have a life past their initial run.
Oh, totally. I completely agree.
To clarify, I don't think Dragon Ball should strive for immortality in the sense of "being a continually living and growing product" that never truly "ends" (however you want to define that word). But if we're talking immortality in the sense of "ensuring wide availability and circulation of the original product(s) for new generations to absorb, enjoy, and contextualize", then yes, absolutely, make it happen!
ABED wrote:Just because there are larger fanbases doesn't mean the English speaking world isn't a significant fanbase.
But it doesn't seem that significant enough for Toriyama/Toei to give it any special attention. Way too many American fans tend to overrate their importance and influence on the franchise, like the idiots who think DBZ was a global success because of Bruce Faulconer & the Funimation dub smh.
ABED wrote:Just because there are larger fanbases doesn't mean the English speaking world isn't a significant fanbase.
But it doesn't seem that significant enough for Toriyama/Toei to give it any special attention. Way too many American fans tend to overrate their importance and influence on the franchise, like the idiots who think DBZ was a global success because of Bruce Faulconer & the Funimation dub smh.
I do think they overrate their importance, but it's not due to lack of size. I just don't think Toriyama's ever put that much thought into who his fans are outside his native country.
There are fans who think the dub and Faulconer is what made it a global success? It's bad enough anyone thinks those changes are what made it a success here.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
ABED wrote:Just because there are larger fanbases doesn't mean the English speaking world isn't a significant fanbase.
But it doesn't seem that significant enough for Toriyama/Toei to give it any special attention. Way too many American fans tend to overrate their importance and influence on the franchise, like the idiots who think DBZ was a global success because of Bruce Faulconer & the Funimation dub smh.
I do think they overrate their importance, but it's not due to lack of size. I just don't think Toriyama's ever put that much thought into who his fans are outside his native country.
There are fans who think the dub and Faulconer is what made it a global success? It's bad enough anyone thinks those changes are what made it a success here.
Yes . I've countered plenty of them in multiple forums and in Youtube comments over the years. There are some really stupid people in this fandom.
Herms sometimes posts translation summaries of articles on Twitter, and this is one of them:
"Director Nagamine wants this film to be appealing to audiences overseas too, so they're making it with that in mind (if the whole Broly thing weren't enough of a tip-off). Many in the anime industry grew up watching DB, so there's no shortage of people eager to work on it."
and (working from the same interview):
"They close out with general hype for how the movie looks great and should get a response out of people. They reiterate that they've also got overseas audiences in mind, so the action scenes are intense. Apparently that's what us foreign chaps care about."
But for the love of all that is holy, please do not conflate my knee-jerk impressions of what fans over here care about with what has actually been said in regards to the production of this movie. Aside from "action scenes are intense" I have yet to see any specific details as to what having "overseas audiences in mind" means. As far as I understand, even Herms's remark there about Broli is just him editorializing. And of course, you're obviously free to interpret what "overseas" even refers to, although I'd be highly surprised if they don't keep a close eye on as huge a market as the English-speaking audience and its perceived obsession with Broli.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:
Herms sometimes posts translation summaries of articles on Twitter, and this is one of them:
"Director Nagamine wants this film to be appealing to audiences overseas too, so they're making it with that in mind (if the whole Broly thing weren't enough of a tip-off). Many in the anime industry grew up watching DB, so there's no shortage of people eager to work on it."
and (working from the same interview):
"They close out with general hype for how the movie looks great and should get a response out of people. They reiterate that they've also got overseas audiences in mind, so the action scenes are intense. Apparently that's what us foreign chaps care about."
But for the love of all that is holy, please do not conflate my knee-jerk impressions of what fans over here care about with what has actually been said in regards to the production of this movie. Aside from "action scenes are intense" I have yet to see any specific details as to what having "overseas audiences in mind" means. As far as I understand, even Herms's remark there about Broli is just him editorializing. And of course, you're obviously free to interpret what "overseas" even refers to, although I'd be highly surprised if they don't keep a close eye on as huge a market as the English-speaking audience and its perceived obsession with Broli.
Well I'm not sure if that was just aimed at zarmack or both of us but I'll respond.
I wasn't trying to kickoff with you or anything. Was just curious as it was the first time I saw anything about that. Also wanted to see if they specifically said Western, since that is technically different to the English-speaking world. Overseas could mean anything outside of Japan, but given how large the US economy is and it's worldwide influence, I wouldn't be surprised if they keeping an eye out on the English-speaking audience like you said.
Additionally, I have no idea the fandom is like in Japan, but isn't Broli popular there too? I mean he did get two sequels even during the series initial run.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
Kid Buu wrote:I wasn't trying to kickoff with you or anything. Was just curious as it was the first time I saw anything about that.
I didn't think you were. And it did take me awhile to track it down. I wanted to make sure I wasn't just talking out of my ass or had completely misremembered it, but I knew I'd seen a few references like that on Herms's twitter over the past few months.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:
zarmack wrote:
The Engilsh speaking DB fandom (USA, UK, Canada, Australia) is really small compared to many other regions in the world. So I doubt that's true.
Herms sometimes posts translation summaries of articles on Twitter, and this is one of them:
"Director Nagamine wants this film to be appealing to audiences overseas too, so they're making it with that in mind (if the whole Broly thing weren't enough of a tip-off). Many in the anime industry grew up watching DB, so there's no shortage of people eager to work on it."
and (working from the same interview):
"They close out with general hype for how the movie looks great and should get a response out of people. They reiterate that they've also got overseas audiences in mind, so the action scenes are intense. Apparently that's what us foreign chaps care about."
But for the love of all that is holy, please do not conflate my knee-jerk impressions of what fans over here care about with what has actually been said in regards to the production of this movie. Aside from "action scenes are intense" I have yet to see any specific details as to what having "overseas audiences in mind" means. As far as I understand, even Herms's remark there about Broli is just him editorializing. And of course, you're obviously free to interpret what "overseas" even refers to, although I'd be highly surprised if they don't keep a close eye on as huge a market as the English-speaking audience and its perceived obsession with Broli.
Well I'm not sure if that was just aimed at zarmack or both of us but I'll respond.
I wasn't trying to kickoff with you or anything. Was just curious as it was the first time I saw anything about that. Also wanted to see if they specifically said Western, since that is technically different to the English-speaking world. Overseas could mean anything outside of Japan, but given how large the US economy is and it's worldwide influence, I wouldn't be surprised if they keeping an eye out on the English-speaking audience like you said.
Additionally, I have no idea the fandom is like in Japan, but isn't Broli popular there too? I mean he did get two sequels even during the series initial run.
Broly is also the most frequently reappearing villain in Dragonball Heroes (a Japan only videogame). He even got a 4th movie exclusively for Universal Studios Japan.
Kid Buu wrote:I wasn't trying to kickoff with you or anything. Was just curious as it was the first time I saw anything about that.
I didn't think you were. And it did take me awhile to track it down. I wanted to make sure I wasn't just talking out of my ass or had completely misremembered it, but I knew I'd seen a few references like that on Herms's twitter over the past few months.
Ah right. Well either way I agree with everything else you said. BoG was a nice treat for fans, but then the new content just kept coming and coming and coming and I'm over it. I'll watch the new film but I don't have the highest hopes for it.
Reminds me of that Fairly OddParents episode where it is Christmas everyday.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
The Super anime is the only piece of Dragon Ball media I actively dislike, and I really do hate it.
However, the Super manga is a lot of fun, and the upcoming movie looks cool, and if we count it as a part of this, Kai was a pretty cool thing to happen for a variety of reasons, despite its rather messy production.
So, it's been a pretty mixed revival. Honestly, the thing I'm most excited for about the revival era is Toei finally remastering the older stuff in HD.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.
I have enjoyed most things. Except a few bad episodes in Super, it's been a fun ride. Some has even been extremely good to me. But I gotta say DB feels like a much better story throughout compared to super.
I am at my second watch-through now in less than a year (first a fan cut then now the French dub together with my 5 year old) and the second time has not bored me at all. I am not sure I could do the same with Super.
Ssjcell wrote:Well I think everyone is wrong saying that new Dragonball is bad Dragonball.
God forbid people have their own opinions.. execute them!
It's wrong to say everything is. Because everything is not. It is not wrong if you point put what is and why. And this is subjective. People will always have different opinions and see things from a different point of view.
Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!! was a lot of fun and had a wonderfully organic "getting the band back together" feel, even if it story itself was quite shallow and Abo and Kado are horrendous antagonists. And I don't care for Tarble are all and I'm glad that beyond Battle Of Gods he isn't brought up again. (Decent)
The redeeming factor of Dragon Ball Kai, for me personally, was the English dub. And lo and behold, the work FUNimation work on that show was fantastic, for the most part. Although the terrible remastering of the Majin Boo arc portion when it came to it getting the Kai treatment left a bitter taste in my mouth, it still doesn't take away from the great job FUNimation did in dubbing the series as a whole.
However, if were to speak from the perspective of those who don't care for the English dub, Dragon Ball Kai was meaningless. Yes, it resolved the awful pacing of the series, but it brought with it a many issues. Such the replacements of some of the seiyuu's, the awful placement of Shunsuke Kikuchi's score, the general decrease in quality from the some of Japanese cast was horrible exposed, and remastering job of the Majin Boo was abysmal. So if you're not going into Dragon Ball Kai for the English dub in any capacity, you're not going to get much worthwhile. (Decent)
Dragon Ball Heroes is basically what happens when you let a 10 year old who has spent the last few weeks watching some of the DBZ anime and a couple of the DBZ movies compose a "what-if" story... you get a incoherent mishmash of fantasy kitchen sink battles that have no meaning, provide no character development or characterisation and where "consistency" is a dirty word. Although, out of pure curiosity, I read Victory Mission and it's surprisingly inoffensive. I wouldn't call it "good" by any stretch of the imagination, but it's tolerable and has some chapters which verge on being decent. Super Dragon Ball Heroes though, that shit can drive off a fucking cliff and land head first into a sea of syringes and needles for all I care. Fuck that shit. (Bad)
Episode Of Bardock is thoroughly horrendous. It's the worst case of fanservice in all of Dragon Ball as it's fanservice that has no merit or artist value and shows gross misunderstanding of one of Dragon Ball's more unique character stories. (Bad)
Jaco The Galactic Patrolman is tons of fun. Jaco is wonderfully enigmatic character who interacts to his surrounding which such earnest and whimsy that feels a lot like the tone and direction in the chapter/episode where Goku and the Dr Slump gang met each other...(Good)
Battle Of Gods was fantastic. And one of the best things to happen to Dragon Ball in many years. It introduced a well layered antagonist (Beerus), expanded on the lore of the Dragon Ball cosmos that intertwined with the plot extremely well (Super Saiyan God), and it end on note that opened the door for so many potentially great stories to be told (the multiverse). Love this movie to death. (Good)
...But the positive Jaco brings are unfortunately overshadowed by the bonus chapter Dragon Ball Minus. Which is not only the worst thing that has be introduced in this Dragon Ball revival but the worst thing that the Dragon Ball franchise has ever produced period. It does so much damage to the themes of Dragon Ball it's unfathomable. And for it to come from Toriyama himself makes it all the more saddening. (Bad)
Resurrection F. Fucking hell. This should stand as an example of how not to do a sequel. A terribly stagnant movie that exists because Toriyama heard a rock song about Freeza and decided to write a movie based of off that. Like, a red flag should have drawn up immediately after reason for that kind of concept was brought to the table. The direction is lifeless, the animation is stiff, the story-boarding is flat, and there are a plateau of writing issues in that think a good chunk of them carried over into Super. And one of the unique features of introduced in Battle Of Gods (Super Saiyan God) only has the purpose of being a superficial foundation for a less interesting transformation that would lose its mystique in the very movie it debuts in. Resurrection F Couldn't have felt more detach from Battle Of Gods if it tried. Just a terrible movie in its own right. Made even worse by the fact that I originally liked it a lot when it first came out. (Bad)
Dragon Ball Super. Oh man, what a show this was. If you look up "roller coaster" in the English Dictionary, Dragon Ball Super would come up as an example. A show that was inconsistently consistent in with its writing at times from literally the first arc, relied quite a bit on nostalgia, "Rule Of Cool" and pandering to the fanbase to coast through its story at its detriment, and had severe production issues that plagued 1/3 of the show. However, through some kind of sheer will, determination and good dose of fortune, it still manages to produce wholesome character progression for some of the main cast, creates and identity for itself with the introduction of Ultra Instinct, have good character arcs for the new additions to the story and creates, has some wonderfully animated, directed, written and storyboarded episodes (even in some of its most inconsequential episodes), and the manga is really damn good (when it wants to be). (Good)
So I'd say that Dragon Ball's modern revival has been mostly a lot of good fun for me. Apart from Minus being offensively bad, Resurrection F being terribly bland and having no good direction, and Episode Of Bardock and Heroes shamelessly appealing to the wet dreams of the fanbase and some parts of Super placing spectacle over consistency, a good chunk of the material from Dragon Ball's modern renaissance has ranged from decent to great for me.
I am looking forward to what the Dragon Ball Super Broly movie will provide. I'm very confident that the movie will be the spectacle to behold. But I'm more casually optimistic about its script, given elements of Dragon Ball Minus are going to be in it. Finger crossed they manage to make something of that abomination worthwhile.
EDIT(s): I forgot about Episode Of Bardock and Dragon Ball Heroes. And had a bit of a change of heart on the 2008 special when I thought about again. And some typos in that need fixing.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Beerus' comments don't count, he's one of the stars of Super so of course he'd like it
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
ekrolo2 wrote:Beerus' comments don't count, he's one of the stars of Super so of course he'd like it
I was in Ressurection F and I hated that movie.
See, I'm unbiased.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
ekrolo2 wrote:Beerus' comments don't count, he's one of the stars of Super so of course he'd like it
I was in Ressurection F and I hated that movie.
See, I'm unbiased.
Lord beerus what is your role in super?
To destroy shit, eat food and look awesome while doing it.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Honestly, I've become way less critical of DB as I've gotten older. I find that I just don't really have the time and will to put forth an effort into analyzing and deconstructing something that's not meant to be analyzed and deconstructed, and I've come to enjoy Super and company for what they are: a pretty blatant mindlessly fun cash-grab. Sure, it's got problems, but I can spend an afternoon turning my brain off and binge watching, and come away feeling entertained, so I feel that it does its job well enough.
That being said, I would have been just as happy had any of this stuff never existed, and I don't feel that my life has been improved by its existence or anything like that. And I'm not saying that you can't be critical of the newer stuff; I just prefer to spend my time in other ways.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Honestly, I've become way less critical of DB as I've gotten older. I find that I just don't really have the time and will to put forth an effort into analyzing and deconstructing something that's not meant to be analyzed and deconstructed, and I've come to enjoy Super and company for what they are: a pretty blatant mindlessly fun cash-grab. Sure, it's got problems, but I can spend an afternoon turning my brain off and binge watching, and come away feeling entertained, so I feel that it does its job well enough.
That being said, I would have been just as happy had any of this stuff never existed, and I don't feel that my life has been improved by its existence or anything like that. And I'm not saying that you can't be critical of the newer stuff; I just prefer to spend my time in other ways.
Even without having seen Super, these are pretty much my thoughts on a lot of these revivals.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.