I've encounter multiple people (particularly those with feminist/sjw leanings) who moan and whine at the prospect of a popular female character becoming a mother, even when it doesn't define their whole character. People like the ones I'm talking about are a dime-a-dozen in the West.ABED wrote:We aren't acting like motherhood is a bad thing. It's one thing if you were mostly arguing that we missed something and Bulma wasn't relegated solely to the role of mother, which is fair. It's another to paint us as arguing against female characters being mothers. What I don't like is when that's the extent of their character.
Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
There's plenty of valid criticisms to be had about Dragon Ball's handling of female characters, but I don't think Bulma should be used as an example. She's a counterargument, if anything. The fact that she still plays a significant role during the early Cell arc and still receives character moments and character beats during Buu is actually pretty amazing for a series that shifts characters into the background as rapidly as Dragon Ball. Her Pilaf arc peers of Oolong and Puar were basically written out of the story the moment the original hunt for the Dragon Balls was over (minus Puar's role in Uranai Baba's tournament and Oolong's recognition of Chi-Chi - the latter being an underrated moment in the story and a nice character moment, I feel), and Chaozu played essentially no role after Nappa despite being introduced far later than Bulma.
You could take some issue with Bulma's characterization, perhaps - I haven't really given the matter any thought - but far as attention goes, I thought Bulma comes out very well.
You could take some issue with Bulma's characterization, perhaps - I haven't really given the matter any thought - but far as attention goes, I thought Bulma comes out very well.
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
Fair enough. I've seen comments like those as well, but are either myself or MasenkoHA arguing that?ruler9871 wrote:I've encounter multiple people (particularly those with feminist/sjw leanings) who moan and whine at the prospect of a popular female character becoming a mother, even when it doesn't define their whole character. People like the ones I'm talking about are a dime-a-dozen in the West.ABED wrote:We aren't acting like motherhood is a bad thing. It's one thing if you were mostly arguing that we missed something and Bulma wasn't relegated solely to the role of mother, which is fair. It's another to paint us as arguing against female characters being mothers. What I don't like is when that's the extent of their character.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
People who complain about VegeBul often act like Bulma being one of the heroes means there's no way she would fall for someone like Vegeta. Such views are extremely naive and out of touch with reality (because in real life even the nicest girls are turned-on by bad boys lol).ABED wrote:Bulma's no saint? She's not perfect, but what has she done that was that terrible?
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
There are bad boys and then there are mass murderers.ruler9871 wrote:People who complain about VegeBul often act like Bulma being one of the heroes means there's no way she would fall for someone like Vegeta. Such views are extremely naive and out of touch with reality (because in real life even the nicest girls are turned-on by bad boys lol).ABED wrote:Bulma's no saint? She's not perfect, but what has she done that was that terrible?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
And you’re not getting it. Nothing even suggest he’s attracted to her and we already know he didn’t want a hybrid. I’m not conflating the two.ruler9871 wrote:
1. Having sex =/= wanting to have children. You're making a false dichotomy.
Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
Mass murderers on average do even better with women than regular bad boys lol. Nearly every major warlord, dictator, etc tends to attract & sleep with lots of women over their lifetime (unless they're gay).ABED wrote:There are bad boys and then there are mass murderers.ruler9871 wrote:People who complain about VegeBul often act like Bulma being one of the heroes means there's no way she would fall for someone like Vegeta. Such views are extremely naive and out of touch with reality (because in real life even the nicest girls are turned-on by bad boys lol).ABED wrote:Bulma's no saint? She's not perfect, but what has she done that was that terrible?
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
Haha, yeah. I think the issue some people have with Bulma x Vegeta, ruler, is that it had only been a couple of years since Vegeta slaughtered her boyfriend and several of her other closest friends. It's definitely a far more extreme example than Bulma falling for the bad boy desert bandit during the Pilaf arc.ABED wrote:There are bad boys and then there are mass murderers.
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
I have the strangest feeling we've had this conversation before. Yes, there are women that are attracted to dictators and warlords, but they aren't good women.ruler9871 wrote:Mass murderers on average do even better with women than regular bad boys lol. Nearly every major warlord, dictator, etc tends to attract & sleep with lots of women over their lifetime (unless they're gay).ABED wrote:There are bad boys and then there are mass murderers.ruler9871 wrote:
People who complain about VegeBul often act like Bulma being one of the heroes means there's no way she would fall for someone like Vegeta. Such views are extremely naive and out of touch with reality (because in real life even the nicest girls are turned-on by bad boys lol).
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
People often change their minds and priorities in life over time. There's nothing contradictory about that.MasenkoHA wrote:And you’re not getting it. Nothing even suggest he’s attracted to her and we already know he didn’t want a hybrid. I’m not conflating the two.ruler9871 wrote:
1. Having sex =/= wanting to have children. You're making a false dichotomy.
We never seen how VegeBul hooked up, nor Krillin x A18 for that matter merely due to Toriyama's reluctance to write about relationships & sex beyond a gag scene or a plot device.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
Neither is Bulma to a extent, especially in Early DB. So it's not out-of-character at all.ABED wrote:I have the strangest feeling we've had this conversation before. Yes, there are women that are attracted to dictators and warlords, but they aren't good women.ruler9871 wrote:Mass murderers on average do even better with women than regular bad boys lol. Nearly every major warlord, dictator, etc tends to attract & sleep with lots of women over their lifetime (unless they're gay).ABED wrote: There are bad boys and then there are mass murderers.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
We never saw 18 and Kuririn "hook up" but we did see the attraction.
She's flaky at times and vain at worst.Neither is Bulma to a extent, especially in Early DB.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
Hey, even School Shooters have their fangirls (That moment when you realize you're not even joking...)ABED wrote:There are bad boys and then there are mass murderers.ruler9871 wrote:People who complain about VegeBul often act like Bulma being one of the heroes means there's no way she would fall for someone like Vegeta. Such views are extremely naive and out of touch with reality (because in real life even the nicest girls are turned-on by bad boys lol).ABED wrote:Bulma's no saint? She's not perfect, but what has she done that was that terrible?
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
Kanassa wrote:- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
That doesn't surprise me. Murderers have groupies. Bulma doesn't strike me as that type. She's more or less just a girl that in the moment lets her hormones get the best of her when she sees a hot guy for the first time.Kanassa wrote:Hey, even School Shooters have their fangirls (That moment when you realize you're not even joking...)ABED wrote:There are bad boys and then there are mass murderers.ruler9871 wrote:
People who complain about VegeBul often act like Bulma being one of the heroes means there's no way she would fall for someone like Vegeta. Such views are extremely naive and out of touch with reality (because in real life even the nicest girls are turned-on by bad boys lol).
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
[quote]People often change their minds and priorities in life over time. There's nothing contradictory about that.
[/quote]
People absolutely change their mind and priorities but that has nothing to do with this. It’s very obvious Vegeta did not want a son. And nothing even comes close to suggesting he found Bulma sexually attractive.
And despite this insistence Bulma liked “bad boys” from what we’ve actually seen she likes pretty boys regardless of their moral code. All the guy she swoon over was based on their looks. Not their personality or action. And Vegeta is hardly drawn like a pretty boy.
[quote]We never seen how VegeBul hooked up, nor Krillin x A18 for that matter merely due to Toriyama's reluctance to write about relationships & sex beyond a gag scene or a plot device[/quote].
We knew there was an attraction on Kurilin’s end. And 18 seemed at least somewhat attracted to him in return.
[/quote]
People absolutely change their mind and priorities but that has nothing to do with this. It’s very obvious Vegeta did not want a son. And nothing even comes close to suggesting he found Bulma sexually attractive.
And despite this insistence Bulma liked “bad boys” from what we’ve actually seen she likes pretty boys regardless of their moral code. All the guy she swoon over was based on their looks. Not their personality or action. And Vegeta is hardly drawn like a pretty boy.
[quote]We never seen how VegeBul hooked up, nor Krillin x A18 for that matter merely due to Toriyama's reluctance to write about relationships & sex beyond a gag scene or a plot device[/quote].
We knew there was an attraction on Kurilin’s end. And 18 seemed at least somewhat attracted to him in return.
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
What are your thoughts on the filler episode where Bulma takes care of Vegeta after he injures himself during training? There's a subtle attraction there.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
I honestly forgot about that episode because last time I watched DBZ all the way through was KaiABED wrote:What are your thoughts on the filler episode where Bulma takes care of Vegeta after he injures himself during training? There's a subtle attraction there.
It’s not that far out of the realm of possibility for her to be hot fo Vegeta. Even if I think it contradicts her attraction to pretty boys schtick.
It still doesn’t account for Vegeta’s end of the courtship. I think we’re suppose to assume it was a brief consensual physical thing. And I’m not buying Vegeta has any interest in such things.
Let’s call it for what it actualy was. Toriyama wanted Vegeta to have a hybrid son and he wanted to do a John Conner type story. Bulma was the only available female to pop a baby out of bonus points her being a genius so there was a feasible reason for Saiyajin John Conner to have a time machine.
Last edited by MasenkoHA on Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
He's male isn't he?MasenkoHA wrote:It still doesn’t account for Vegeta end of the courtship. I think we’re suppose to assume it was a brief consensual physical thing. And I’m not buying Vegeta has any interest in such things.
In any case, just reading that Pan was in fact added to GT for the express purpose of being a damsel bugs me.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
He’s male but the Saiyajin race always struck me as a race of asexuals who only find sex useful for the strict purpose of procreation and not so much for pleasure.ABED wrote:He's male isn't he?
.
Even when Nappa suggest they breed with earth’s women (which Vegeta shoots down) It’s more of a “let’s create an army of uber hybrids” than “We’re evil so let’s have our way with their women just cuz”
Sex seems like a means to an end for Saiyajin. Not a hedonistic thing.
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball
You made me laugh at that one.MasenkoHA wrote:Bulma, I’ll grant you at least stays somewhat relevant being the team’s techie but even then let’s be real there was no genuine reason to get Bulma with Vegeta other than Toriyama needed a baby factory for Vegeta so he could do John Conner but as a Super Saiyajin.
But that's one of those many reason I don't like much the Cyborg/Android/Cell saga also poor Yamcha being treated as the one who cheated on Bulma, yikes makes me cringe. In a way I have to agree that most of female character are reduced as baby factory except Bulma who do more than most.
Saiya-jin me, watashi ha kisama wo koroshimasu