Time Travel Discussion (Potential DB Super Spoilers)

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I haven't seen another thread like this yet, forgive me if I'm wrong. Since time travel is still a subject that comes up so often, and is seemingly based on such bizarre and shifty principles, I figure it's best to give the subject its own thread.

Let's see if we can use this to clear anything up.

Edit: If we're talking about DBS, please clarify whether you're talking about the anime or manga, as to avoid confusion.

What we know:
(Here will be a list of time travel facts from the original manga and the DBS anime and manga. Sorry it's not up yet, I've been super busy lately.)

Postponed indefinitely unless this thread becomes more active. I'm too sick of time travel to be bothered if there's no real need for it.

[ekrolo2]

Okay, does merely traveling to the past cause the split or does something need to specifically change for such a thing to occur?

I'd also like a clarification on the butterfly effect since I fail to see how Trunks traveling to the past invents several new Androids who never existed before.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Okay, does merely traveling to the past cause the split or does something need to specifically change for such a thing to occur?

Actually the exact question that inspired the thread. In DBS, at least, it seems that you have to change something important for an actual split to occur.

I'd also like a clarification on the butterfly effect since I fail to see how Trunks traveling to the past invents several new Androids who never existed before.

The Android situation was bullshit, no butterfly effect from anything we were shown should have caused something like that so quickly. I don't think I need to explain the Butterfly Effect itself, since DBS already did a good job at that near the beginning of the FT Arc.

[Basako]

Looks a good idea to have a separete thread for this.

Let's see, I'm gonna try to understand what we have, this is just my interpretation. For start, the number of timelines is six:

T1.- The original timeline
T2.- The first split occurred in U12
T3.- Unknown timeline
T4.- Trunks's timeline: First attacked by the androids, then by Black.
T5.- Black's timeline: The one where Zamasu stole Goku's body and killed him and his family.
T6.- Goku's timeline: The one we know, Beerus has killed Zamasu.

We can't really know if Trunks's timeline is also the original, the one that was created in U12 or another, I've put it as another. We do know that Black's timeline emerged from Trunks's and that Goku's emerged from Black's.

I'm not sure how it works, I think it doesn't make much sense, but it's already a fact that interfering in the past or in the past of other timelines sometimes creates timelines and other times doesn't, if it did, there wouldn't be enough spots for every divergence. That means, overlaping exist in some points.

It seems the last timeline was created only when Beerus killed Zamasu, and during all the time until that, events with Trunks and without him existed as the same timeline. I think it's contradictory, but that's how it looks according to the last manga chapter. That means, not always that we see two things happening differently have to be from different timelines. So maybe the future timeline, where Trunks was killed by Cell, but, in the end, where Trunks killed Cell could be the same too. Or maybe not, maybe there is a sad timeline where Bulma was the only survivor, the androids where killed by Trunks, Trunks by Cell and Cell just left. And other similar cases, no way to be sure.

This are my thoughts for now, but I'll be back.

[ekrolo2]

I'm not opposed to DBS' proposed idea of someone needing to actually change something significant to cause a split (because why would Trunks arriving in the middle of a fight Gero knows fuck all about cause multiple Androids to be created?) but there it doesn't make sense. Beerus killing Zamasu is the event so there should be two timelines where Zamasu was dead. Now, if the split happens because of Beerus weighing his options of whether or not to kill Zamasu, that'd work.

[Doctor.]

I'm not opposed to DBS' proposed idea of someone needing to actually change something significant to cause a split (because why would Trunks arriving in the middle of a fight Gero knows fuck all about cause multiple Androids to be created?) but there it doesn't make sense. Beerus killing Zamasu is the event so there should be two timelines where Zamasu was dead. Now, if the split happens because of Beerus weighing his options of whether or not to kill Zamasu, that'd work.

It hasn't been confirmed, but it's probably Beerus destroying Zamasu that causes the split, as that's what Toei went with and what the manga seems to be hinting at.

It makes no sense.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

It hasn't been confirmed, but it's probably Beerus destroying Zamasu that causes the split, as that's what Toei went with and what the manga seems to be hinting at.

It's hinted at so strongly (and outright stated in the anime and Toei's timeline), I'd be willing to say that it's confirmed.

[Draconic]

Talking about the DBS anime here.

You don't have to change anything in the past in order for the split to occur, as just the mere act of travelling there is enough. This has been the status quo ever since the Cell arc. Once a link between two timelines has been created, there is no split. So, when Trunks first returns to Goku's timeline, there is no change.
However, time doesn't seem to be set in stone and events can be altered without creating a new timeline as these events exist in a fluid what-if situation. This possible future is where the Zamasu who stole Goku's body comes from. The issue arrises when Beerus kills Zamasu causing this new split to occur. However, in the anime, Black specifically points out the fact that the only reason a new timeline was created is because he was possesing the Time Ring. The Ring pretty much ensured Black's existence. So while normally, Beerus killing Zamasu wouldn't have any effect on the timelines, the fact that Black held the Time Ring lead to a split.

In the manga, this doesn't make any sense, as Black is not shown, to my knowledge, actually wearing the Ring, Future Zamasu being it's keeper instead.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

In the manga, this doesn't make any sense, as Black is not shown, to my knowledge, actually wearing the Ring, Future Zamasu being it's keeper instead.

The manga changed the nature of the problem. The time ring has nothing to do with the split in Toyotaro's continuity, we can infer this because Whis remarks beforehand that if Beerus killed Zamasu, he would create a new timeline, and Whis. In the manga, the split seems to happen merely because Goku Black's history became incongruent. As of Chapter 20, we find out that Future Zamasu may not have necessarily been the "keeper", as you put it. It seems that he was only wearing the ring temporarily, and that he had been scouting other timelines for possible invasion.

[ekrolo2]

Honestly, I was fine with the anime's Time Ring thing. The idea of Black being this weird anomaly in time who once had his own history and still does but because of Trunks & Beerus, said history doesn't exist but the Ring protects him, thus making his era both exist and not exist simultaneously. Then they fuck this up by shoving the Toei chart into the very last episode.

Ideally, they'd have just made Black from the unseen timeline, the one that's closest to the main one to explain his existence but... Its y'know... Super....

[Draconic]

In the manga, this doesn't make any sense, as Black is not shown, to my knowledge, actually wearing the Ring, Future Zamasu being it's keeper instead.

The manga changed the nature of the problem. The time ring has nothing to do with the split in Toyotaro's continuity, we can infer this because Whis remarks beforehand that if Beerus killed Zamasu, he would create a new timeline, and Whis. In the manga, the split seems to happen merely because Goku Black's history became incongruent. As of Chapter 20, we find out that Future Zamasu may not have necessarily been the "keeper", as you put it. It seems that he was only wearing the ring temporarily, and that he had been scouting other timelines for possible invasion.

The split happening there makes no sense taking into account what we know of DB time travel, as changing stuff in the past once you've already travelled there has no effect on the timeline. This is proven in the Cell arc, as when Trunks came back the second time there was no new timeline created neither when he simply travelled, nor when he interfered with stuff. The anime gave a reason why the split takes place, taking into account old rules and making up new Time Ring ones. The manga doesn't, so it makes no sense.
Zamasu wearing the Ring or not is irrelevant and I probably shouldn't have brought it up. What matters is it wasn't in Black's hands, so it can't be used as the reason why this new timeline is created. And since that's the only reason between mediums for it, means Toyotaro screwed up.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

What matters is it wasn't in Black's hands, so it can't be used as the reason why this new timeline is created. And since that's the only reason between mediums for it, means Toyotaro screwed up.

You don't have to tell me, although I'm not going to pin it entirely on Toyotaro. After all, the anime maintained both paradoxes even with the time ring explanation, Toyotaro's only suffers from one causality issue. I think all of these problems have more to do with Toriyama being really bad at writing time travel. He forgets his own rules, he haphazardly contradicts the established mechanics that he does remember, and because of that, both versions of the FT arc are shot full of holes.

[Draconic]

What matters is it wasn't in Black's hands, so it can't be used as the reason why this new timeline is created. And since that's the only reason between mediums for it, means Toyotaro screwed up.

You don't have to tell me, although I'm not going to pin it entirely on Toyotaro. After all, the anime maintained both paradoxes even with the time ring explanation, Toyotaro's only suffers from one causality issue. I think all of these problems have more to do with Toriyama being really bad at writing time travel. He forgets his own rules, he haphazardly contradicts the established mechanics that he does remember, and because of that, both versions of the FT arc are shot full of holes.

I can easily blame it on him. The anime tried to at least do something and turned out pretty good, while still keeping true to the outline. He has the freedom to connect the dots however he wants and he either didn't realize something needed fixing or he didn't know how to. Both are equally bad.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I can easily blame it on him. The anime tried to at least do something and turned out pretty good, while still keeping true to the outline. He has the freedom to connect the dots however he wants and he either didn't realize something needed fixing or he didn't know how to. Both are equally bad.

I said that I wouldn't blame it entirely on Toyotaro. Sure, he could have gotten around it with some simple tinkering, but these paradoxes clearly stem from Toriyama. Neither Toyotaro nor the Toei writers shouldn't have to jump through hoops to make up for his incompetence, anyway.

By the way, the anime doesn't get props for trying to fix issues when they didn't follow through with it. Quite the opposite, they inflamed the existing problems in many cases.

At this point, I wouldn't mind one bit if Toriyama stepped down as the author and stuck to character designs.

[TheMikado]

I'd like to state that no where in the original manga was it stat d that the time machines themselves create new timelines. The only thing we know is that Trunks specifically states he is changing history by giving medicine to Goku, not by traveling there.

Here is how I interpret the events. A time machine actually does go to the last of its own timeline.

So Trunks being in the 4th timeline actually travels back to the past of the 4th timeline. The 5th timeline does not exist until Trunks does something significant to make the general timeline different in a significant way.

This is illustrated by the time rings not increasing when he came back again, but increasing when Zamasu died.

The reason time machines are linked to timelines is because they seem to just back and forth between their current timelines and the original one. In Trunks case he went into the past of the 4th and by actions made the timeline split into a 5th. The one where he was doing all his actions. Same with the 5th timeline where right now they are jumping back and forth between the 4th and 6th timeline Beerus created while the 5th is chugging along with the rest of the Super series as if Trunks never showed up.

To illustrate what I mean by significant, if a time machine appears for 5 mins in an empty forest and no significant changes to ththe time line occur and the time machine goes back, there's not enough of a difference between the time lines to generate a ring. It seems like there would need to be a large and substantial deviation of time streams to force the generation of a time ring. At least in the DB universe. In conclusion it's NEVER stated by the author himself or in the manga that the time machine themselves by usage, actually create different time lines.
It seems like we have all just assumed that the time machines actually automatically took users to a different timeline in the past when that doesn't appear to true. The only thing we know is that users cannot change their timelines because all that does is create a timeline split.

[Cipher]

DBS does indeed seem to have taken the approach that a "substantial" change is needed for a split, though that's by far the most simplistic and childish approach the series has ever taken on its time travel. Previously, I would've just assumed that any change, no matter how small, creates a split. Not only is that more logical, but it's even the route implied by the myriad changes in the past ushered in by Cell's presence, despite the fact he isn't interacting with anyone in his larval form.

But really -- If I were to move one stone that Bulma photographed at some point in her life, then return to my original time and ask her to pull out that photograph, surely it would still resemble its original position. Needing to account for the difference between that photograph and the one taken by Bulma in this minimally changed past is exactly the kind of thing Dragon Ball's time-travel model is set up to address.

Beerus' killing Zamasu being the cause for the timeline split this arc just doesn't jive. We can take it at face value and just write it off as Dragon Ball playing fast and loose with logic, but really, the timeline should splinter the moment Trunks arrives in the past to warn everyone about Black.

[Doctor.]

DBS does indeed seem to have taken the approach that a "substantial" change is needed for a split, though that's by far the most simplistic and childish approach the series has ever taken on its time travel. Previously, I would've just assumed that any change, no matter how small, creates a split. Not only is that more logical, but it's even the route implied by the myriad changes in the past ushered in by Cell's presence, despite the fact he isn't interacting with anyone in his larval form.

But really -- If I were to move one stone that Bulma photographed at some point in her life, then return to my original time and ask her to pull out that photograph, surely it would still resemble its original position. Needing to account for the difference between that photograph and the one taken by Bulma in this minimally changed past is exactly the kind of thing Dragon Ball's time-travel model is set up to address.

Beerus' killing Zamasu being the cause for the timeline split this arc just doesn't jive. We can take it at face value and just write it off as Dragon Ball playing fast and loose with logic, but really, the timeline should splinter the moment Trunks arrives in the past to warn everyone about Black.

My thoughts exactly. Any small change should split the timeline, or you create a temporal impossibility. You have two different events occuring in the exact same timeline, which makes no sense at all logically.

[Cipher]

My thoughts exactly. Any small change should split the timeline, or you create a temporal impossibility. You have two different events occuring in the exact same timeline, which makes no sense at all logically.

Yep. I'll add in that Dragon Ball's multiple-worlds time-travel is set up to address these kinds of paradoxes. In that example: two Bulmas, two photographs, two timelines to account for the difference.

So, when does a timeline split occur? When contradictory versions of events are created (whether you go with the logical route of accounting even the smallest changes or Super's dumbed down approach of only major changes, the same general rules apply).

This is why Trunks is able to go back and forth between his world and the "main" timeline multiple times without creating further splits. His very first trip back, he's creating Bulma-B, who will remember events very differently from the Bulma-A of his own timeline. But on subsequent trips back, provided he always returns after the end of his last trip, he isn't creating any further contradictory memories/versions of events; it's just more stuff happening with Bulma-B and Bulma-A who are already independent of one another. Conversely, Cell traveling back even earlier than Trunks' first arrival does create new contradictions, and thus a new timeline (two, actually, since it also provides Trunks different experiences he takes back with him to his future era).

This arc saw a new timeline because the events of Trunks' timeline are contradictory to Black being killed in the past. Black will remember his origins playing out the way they're recounted to Goku. Because of Trunks' traveling to a point before Black's creation, however, a different series of events play out such that you have one timeline where Zamasu is killed, and another where he successfully carried out his plans, the effects of which are locked into Trunks' world and can't simply be erased.

[TheMikado]

But I don't recall the manga ever stating the butterfly effect worked to that level. I.e. Everything we saw was assuming the time machine took him to a different timeline, the idea of this being a temporal impossibly is incorrect, if the timelines can split then they can converge as well if an action is no longer significant or referenced. The idea of timeline convergence is not new and just as plausible as timeline splitting, especially in fiction talking about timeline splitting.

[TheMikado]

My thoughts exactly. Any small change should split the timeline, or you create a temporal impossibility. You have two different events occuring in the exact same timeline, which makes no sense at all logically.

Yep. I'll add in that Dragon Ball's multiple-worlds time-travel is set up to address these kinds of paradoxes. In that example: two Bulmas, two photographs, two timelines to account for the difference.

So, when does a timeline split occur? When contradictory versions of events are created (whether you go with the logical route of accounting even the smallest changes or Super's dumbed down approach of only major changes, the same general rules apply).

This is why Trunks is able to go back and forth between his world and the "main" timeline multiple times without creating further splits. His very first trip back, he's creating Bulma-B, who will remember events very differently from the Bulma-A of his own timeline. But on subsequent trips back, provided he always returns after the end of his last trip, he isn't creating any further contradictory memories/versions of events; it's just more stuff happening with Bulma-B and Bulma-A who are already independent of one another. Conversely, Cell traveling back even earlier than Trunks' first arrival does create new contradictions, and thus a new timeline (two, actually, since it also provides Trunks different experiences he takes back with him to his future era).

This arc saw a new timeline because Black's presence in Trunks' future is contradictory to Black being killed in the past due to Trunks' actions. Black will remember his origins playing out the way they're recounted to Goku. Because of Trunks' traveling to a point before Black's creation, however, a different series of events play out such that you have one timeline where Zamasu is killed, and another where he successfully carried out his plans, the effects of which are locked into Trunks' world and can't simply be erased.

But this is shown to be false as Trunks and Cell only created one timeline split, not multiple despite the differences. It's specifically stated that Trunk and Cell only caused one split there fore it's not even consistent without your own theory.