The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Rocketman]

It's not quite that GT is inconsistent (though it is quite a bit), it's that GT operates under the idea that everybody is able to get stronk fast without much special training.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

They just go a little overboard with Toriyama's comment about Saiyans getting stronger as they fight. Goku even says it here:

Episode 35
Time: around 15m50s
Subject: Saiyans
Goku: "You act as though you understand the Saiyans, but you don't know anything, do you? Saiyans get stronger the more we fight."

I don't have much of a problem with it really. It's not much better than getting multiple times stronger from climbing up a tower and trying to catch water from a cat. Or going from weaker than Nappa to arguably stronger than Nail in 6 days. Or going from much weaker than Freeza to much stronger than Android #20 with 3 years of mountain training. Or training for a week in the Room of Spirit and Time and surpassing your SS form in base. Dragon Ball's never really consistently had logical power increases.

[singsing]

Or training for a week in the Room of Spirit and Time and surpassing your SS form in base. Dragon Ball's never really consistently had logical power increases.

Except that's not a clear cut fact anywhere. Many people would be against it, actually.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Piccolo had more faith in post-RoSaT Base Gotenks beating Super Buu than he did pre-RoSaT Super Saiyan Gotenks.

Base Gotenks post > Super Saiyan Gotenks pre

It's simple A > B logic

[supercat]

Some people assume Rildo is stronger than any form of Boo and since the same people assume Piccolo is stronger than Rildo, that would make Piccolo far stronger than Gohan Boo.

How is Piccolo stronger then Rildo? The logic behind this power scaling makes no sense. I feel like people over hype GT characters since I always feel like Pan is still below SSj level. If she was stronger then SSj1 then how come she can't transform? Going by Beerus comment in BOG, I think Pan is below 100% Freeza and SSj Namek Saga Goku. Her kick against Rildo is nothing special since Rildo got back up just fine without any major damage from what I can remember. GT likes to job it's characters just as bad as DC and Marvel do sometimes with Captain America and Wolverine.

While everything could be viewed subjectively, I think there are plenty of implications that point towards Piccolo being far superior to Rild. Trust me, when it comes to a character randomly increasing their power, I'm one of those fans who like to dig into all the specific attributes that justify the increase. In short, the following summary of points are why I feel Piccolo has had the privilege of surpassing Rild.

-Shortly after Goku is sent back to Earth through the portal opened up by the combined efforts of Piccolo and Dende, Piccolo confidently claims that he will prevent the villains from causing any further trouble. Now, one might argue and say that the only villains present during the time this bold statement was made were only Nappa and his Red Ribbon Army pals, but it's extremely likely that other villains would jump in, if such a fight actually went down. While Rild may not have been seen with the group, he was clearly shown in line behind Nappa and in front of General Blue. Therefore, it's plausible to believe that the Machine Mutant was within close parameters and that his ki was sensed by Piccolo. It really wouldn't make sense for the Namekian to confidently put himself up to a task that he feels would bring him nothing but eternal torment. After all, he is sort of stuck in the position of having to share a home with a band of ruthless villains, which he had absolutely no issue with whatsoever. If he was really that insignificant, you would assume that he would be a bit more apprehensive about the potential consequences.

-All of this is further reinforced, when Piccolo is shown fine and well when Goku pays him one last visit. This is also the time he makes quick work of some random monster who looked to be stirring up trouble. While this fight itself is probably not a very commendable feat, it at the least shows that the Namekian takes matters into his own hands to ensure there is order.

Piccolo > HF #17 > Rild > Buuhan > Cell > Frieza - this is basically how I see things. Each of those villains with the possible exclusion of HF #17 should be one-shot material for the powerful Namekian. The carbon copy android is quite a powerhouse considering how well he did against Base Vegeta, who likely kept his Baby power up.

With all of the other inflated powers in GT, none of this seems out of the ordinary in my opinion. Let's not forget that Base Goku was fighting on par with a villain that was said to be stronger than Buu. Throw that in with Piccolo's consistent training, and there is lot of feasibility behind his power. I will, however, acknowledge that some of these gains may seem a bit preposterous going strictly by Z standards.

[singsing]

-All of this is further reinforced, when Piccolo is shown fine and well when Goku pays him one last visit. This is also the time he makes quick work of some random monster who looked to be stirring up trouble. While this fight itself is probably not a very commendable feat, it at the least shows that the Namekian takes matters into his own hands to ensure there is order.

Yes, but at the same time, those ogre dudes were doing their job perfectly fine for thousands of years without help. There's something about HFIl that makes fighter power levels weird.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Then the villains were able overwhelm the ogres and escape in the S17 arc. Piccolo stays down there to make sure nothing like that happens again, which would actually require him to be stronger than said villains. The last episode also has Piccolo one-shotting a monster the ogres couldn't keep down implying Piccolo is doing their job that they're failing at, only through brute strength.

[singsing]

Then the villains were able overwhelm the ogres and escape in the S17 arc. Piccolo stays down there to make sure nothing like that happens again, which would actually require him to be stronger than said villains. The last episode also has Piccolo one-shotting a monster the ogres couldn't keep down implying Piccolo is doing their job that they're failing at, only through brute strength.

Doesn't mean Piccolo is stronger than them. Again, if the ogres have been doing fine, then that means there's something wacky with power levels down there. Maybe Piccolo is like 50% stronger than the ogres and suddenly the villains are dealable. Yes, I know he's legitly down there, but still. We don't fully grasp how Toei HFIL works.

[supercat]

Then the villains were able overwhelm the ogres and escape in the S17 arc. Piccolo stays down there to make sure nothing like that happens again, which would actually require him to be stronger than said villains. The last episode also has Piccolo one-shotting a monster the ogres couldn't keep down implying Piccolo is doing their job that they're failing at, only through brute strength.

Doesn't mean Piccolo is stronger than them. Again, if the ogres have been doing fine, then that means there's something wacky with power levels down there. Maybe Piccolo is like 50% stronger than the ogres and suddenly the villains are dealable. Yes, I know he's legitly down there, but still. We don't fully grasp how Toei HFIL works.

I completely agree with SSJ2FutureGohan, Piccolo's presence is to ensure that there will never be another chance for the villains to escape. If we include the anime filler episode with Paikuhan, the villains have harassed the ogres on more than one occasion.

The ogres may have been untouched for long periods of time because Cell and co are probably well aware of the consequences. After the beating from Paikuhan that followed their last attempt at pulling such a stunt, I don't think the biological android and his evil buddies see the value behind beating down a group of irrelevant guards. Instead, it seems they would only cause trouble when there is a bigger goal at stake, much like the opportunity they took in the Super 17 arc. Piccolo's job description doesn't only include protecting the ogres. Preventing the villains from working towards these bigger goals is also a task that's likely included in his day to day responsibilities. With him hovering over them like a hawk, they're forced to behave.

Lastly, even if the villains may not find the ogres worth beating down, they may be willing to take the risk of getting punished just to teach Piccolo a lesson. Considering the Namekian's close relationship with Goku, it's only natural that the Saiyan's enemies would gladly take their frustration out on one of his closest allies. From that standpoint, unless Picoclo was substantially stronger than all of inhabitants of hell, he wouldn't confidently choose the place as his home.

[Sora Saiyan]

They just go a little overboard with Toriyama's comment about Saiyans getting stronger as they fight. Goku even says it here:

Episode 35
Time: around 15m50s
Subject: Saiyans
Goku: "You act as though you understand the Saiyans, but you don't know anything, do you? Saiyans get stronger the more we fight."

Besides the near death power ups, in the manga I can't remember an instance they got stronger by just fighting (not including sparring). If I'm remembering right Toriyama only came up with the idea Saiyans get stronger as they fight in 2013, Toriyama did say it works when fighting against strong opponents. In that case GT did it first then.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Goku got stronger after the 21st Budokai with no near death experiences.

[supercat]

Oceanus Shenron vs Base Rild

Jeice vs Burter

Burter vs Recoome

Jeice vs Recoome

I personally felt that Jeice was the most well-rounded among his peers, while Burter held the edge in speed, and Recoome ranked highest in durability.

[Captain Space]

I personally felt that Jeice was the most well-rounded among his peers, while Burter held the edge in speed, and Recoome ranked highest in durability.

I mean, that's pretty much stated in most extraneous material containing them, yeah.

[Captain Space]

[*]Was practically unscathed from a blast from SS-Goten Baby [who was strong enough to give Base Gohan trouble, and he should be stronger than his Ultimate self based off the Perfect Files.]

What do they say about Gohan that implies this?

[Sora Saiyan]

Goku got stronger after the 21st Budokai with no near death experiences.

Wasn't that just through fighting person after person. I can't remember him getting any stronger just after, though. Maybe I'm just misremembering.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

[*]Was practically unscathed from a blast from SS-Goten Baby [who was strong enough to give Base Gohan trouble, and he should be stronger than his Ultimate self based off the Perfect Files.]

What do they say about Gohan that implies this?

Son Gohan
He transformed when fighting with Goten after Goten had been taken over by Baby!! It seems that even in times of peace, he hasn’t neglected his training. The differences in Gohan’s facial expressions before and after transforming are the most intense out of any warrior!!

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14812

Goku got stronger after the 21st Budokai with no near death experiences.

Wasn't that just through fighting person after person. I can't remember him getting any stronger just after, though. Maybe I'm just misremembering.

Yes... he got stronger... as he kept repeatedly fighting... just like Toriyama said...

[Captain Space]

Son Gohan
He transformed when fighting with Goten after Goten had been taken over by Baby!! It seems that even in times of peace, he hasn’t neglected his training. The differences in Gohan’s facial expressions before and after transforming are the most intense out of any warrior!!

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14812

Ah, thanks. Man, reading up on this...I haven't seen most of GT, so while I'd--from plot summaries and video games--got the gist of the plot and characters, I'd underestimated how crazy everyone's power got...

[Blocky]

Oceanus Shenron vs Base Rild

Jeice vs Burter

Burter vs Recoome

Jeice vs Recoome

I personally felt that Jeice was the most well-rounded among his peers, while Burter held the edge in speed, and Recoome ranked highest in durability.

Burter beats the both with speed

and I Think Recoome would take care of Jeice.

Filler Mr.Popo vs Future Android 18

SSJ3 Majin Vegeta vs SSJ3 Goku (Buu Sega)

[fadeddreams5]

Oceanus Shenron vs Base Rild

Jeice vs Burter

Burter vs Recoome

Jeice vs Recoome

I personally felt that Jeice was the most well-rounded among his peers, while Burter held the edge in speed, and Recoome ranked highest in durability.

Burter beats the both with speed

and I Think Recoome would take care of Jeice.

Filler Mr.Popo vs Future Android 18

SSJ3 Majin Vegeta vs SSJ3 Goku (Buu Sega)

I only recall filler Mr. Popo being able to calm Goten and Trunks down. But who knows... maybe he takes it?

SSJ3 Majin Vegeta wins this. He gains a majin boost, along with the SSJ3 power.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Filler Mr.Popo vs Future Android 18

If filler Popo can handle the 2 Super Saiyan Kids, he's probably on SS Teen Gohan's level of power. He flicks the Android.