Theory about Vegetto's power

[Super Vegetto]

Piccolo Daimao : Where does it say that Gohan was SSJ against Dabura ?

[Fox666]

Here is the link. It lists which volume each transformation first appeared. Goku's Super Saiyan is listed as "Vol. 27+" while Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 is only "Vol. 37". Of course this page lists Super Vegetto as "Vol. 42+" while there is no volume after 42.

But I suggest to not rely on Daizenshuu 7 mention of Gohan fighting as a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra. By no means it was trying to clarify that piece of information, but rather provide a summary of the character part in the story.

If you want to rely on a official source regarding this subject, you should look for one that is actually focusing on it, rather than a vague mention of it.

Perhaps the best source is this picture of Tenkachi Budokai videogame series which says he used the form in the 25th Budokai and never used it again for unknow reasons.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The guidebooks often conflict with each other, and even the Daizenshuu contradicts itself (e.g. saying that Gohan was SS against Dabra in one, but SS2 in another). Things can't or don't always make sense together, nor do they particularly have to.

I'm not the type of the guy that just accepts something as a plot hole. If I can make theories that make sense for me, and don't contradict anything, then it's not a plo hole (for me). Vegetto being Goku X Vegeta doesn't contradict any

Do you mean the what-if battles in video games? The ones that were hypothetical and never actually took place?

Yes. The result in the battles doesn't contradict anything.

[Super Vegetto]

HIGH SCHOOL ERA
SUPER SAIYAN 2
First Appears: Vol. 37


"During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell."

Whait it doesnt say nothing about him never again using SSJ2.

I belived Gohan was SSJ but it seams only proof manga has is lightning and aura for SSJ2 and nothing else. I found out lightning and aura is sometimes missing and that aura is changing, so yes i have proof Gohan was SSJ2 but ofc no one belives in that.

[Kaboom]

What it doesnt say nothing about him never again using SSJ2.

It does, actually. The book had some sort of Japanese character next to the volume number which meant, "and afterwards," which in the Kanzentai boys' translations was represented with a '+' mark next to the number. Gohan's SSj2 there just has "Vol 37" rather than "Vol 37+," which indicates he used the form in volume 37 (at the tournament) but not again after. His battle with Dabra was in volume 38.

So yes, that book says he only used Super Saiyan 2 in volume 37, and never again beyond that.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The guidebooks often conflict with each other, and even the Daizenshuu contradicts itself (e.g. saying that Gohan was SS against Dabra in one, but SS2 in another). Things can't or don't always make sense together, nor do they particularly have to.

I'm not the type of the guy that just accepts something as a plot hole. If I can make theories that make sense for me, and don't contradict anything, then it's not a plo hole (for me). Vegetto being Goku X Vegeta doesn't contradict any

I didn't say "Gokuu X Vegeta = Vegetto" is a plothole, just that I don't think it's meant to be taken literally due to the fact that there's a statement in the same section saying that Potara's closer than multiplication than addition, rather than strictly being a multiplication of two characters' battle powers.

Do you mean the what-if battles in video games? The ones that were hypothetical and never actually took place?

Yes. The result in the battles doesn't contradict anything.

Well, no offence, but that's hilarious. I can't think of any right now, but there are other what-if scenarios in DB video games that are completely retarded and the battles' outcome would never happen realistically.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I didn't say "Gokuu X Vegeta = Vegetto" is a plothole

I wasn't talking about this. I was talking about your sentence I quoted, when you said that sometimes one thing contradict each other. For example, SEG contradicted Daizenshuu about Vegetto's strength. I made a theory on it, if there is any inconsistency, you are more than welcomed to correct me.

I don't think it's meant to be taken literally due to the fact that there's a statement in the same section saying that Potara's closer than multiplication than addition, rather than strictly being a multiplication of two characters' battle powers.

At least I got what you & other guys meant by saying that it's not literal. But still, it's something close to multiplication, and by the Goku X Vegeta, something close to multiplication between the two person's battle powers.

Well, no offence, but that's hilarious. I can't think of any right now, but there are other what-if scenarios in DB video games that are completely retarded and the battles' outcome would never happen realistically.

Yeah, yeah I know. I completely understand your point here. Bardock vs Freeza is an example, no, it's lots of examples . But Vegetto being slightly stronger than Gogeta is believable. Potara & Fusion are different methods of merging, Vegetto & Gogeta are proof that the Potara result differs in appearance compared to the Fusion result. Why shouldn't there be a difference in their power as well? Besides, Fusion is a method invented by a random alien race, while Potara is a godly invention. We don't what are the differences between Potara, Fusion, Namekian merging, or Abo's & Kado's meging.
I just mention the video games in this case, because in this case they don't contradict anything, (unlike the Bardock beating Freeza, Bardock keeping up his own against Freeza, Android arc Kaio-ken Goku, Boo arc Gohan & Goten, Yamcha beating Vegeta, etc.) so if they are official sources and don't contradict anything, the are approved by me, for me.

[Beji]

Well, no offence, but that's hilarious. I can't think of any right now, but there are other what-if scenarios in DB video games that are completely retarded and the battles' outcome would never happen realistically.

I think I can. There are a slew of them but the one that immediately comes to mind is when When Master Roshi and Yajirobe go against Meta-cooler in Tenkaichi 2. It isn't even a "what if" story but the fact that these things happen in the regular story mode contradicts things make it that a what-if scenario can contradict and stray just as much if not more. It is a survive for 90 seconds the fact that it exists is just odd. I don't remember them meeting up with him before everyone else....None of the games can really be realistic because they have to somewhat balance the characters and the what ifs are just for fun. I think in burst limit they have a "Super Bardock" story line where beats up Vegeta.....


EDIT it didn't say that message was there when I was typing xD

[Kaboom]

Anyone else ever managed to beat LSSj Broly as Muten Roshi in Tenkaichi 3's story mode?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Anyone else ever managed to beat LSSj Broly as Muten Roshi in Tenkaichi 3's story mode?

I did!

[Bussani]

Did it ever mention "battle power" specifically there? Or, because it's basically synonymous for strength (even in the manga, long after the whole scouter-thing stuff had been thrown out; I recall second-form Cell saying something like, "I wonder how my battle power is..."), even in the numbered sense that Freeza's gang talk about it? No.

In that same section, it says something like, "Not an addition of powers, but something as great/close to multiplication". But in terms of you taking things so literally, I'm not just talking about that anyway. Frankly, this topic crops up so often that I'm done caring, so you can interpret it how you want. No skin off my nose.

Well, I think it did say "not an addition of battle powers, but something as great as multiplication"--but that alone could just be another way of saying "stronger than the sum of his parts". It's when you combine it with the "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" part that some people think it's being more literal.

I have yet to understand the logic behind "Vegetto = Goku X Vegeta" not being literal. It was said in a guidebook, for God's shake, not in the manga/anime where one may say something that could be taken as a metaphor.

The "equation" isn't part of a sentence or anything. It's more like a big blurb that happens to be on the page. Not only that, but "x" isn't always a multiplication sign. The manga Hunter x Hunter isn't "Hunter times Hunter"; when Digimon fuse in Xros Wars, "Digimon A x Digimon B" doesn't refer to a multiplication, but a "cross" of the two. It could simply be taken as "Goku crossed with Vegeta gets you Vegetto"--I mean, if it had been "Goku + Vegeta = Vegetto", I definitely wouldn't have taken it as math, but in the literal "you put these two together and get this guy" sort of way. But with the line about it being "as great as multiplication" on the same page, I can see why people take it the way they do.

I belived Gohan was SSJ but it seams only proof manga has is lightning and aura for SSJ2 and nothing else. I found out lightning and aura is sometimes missing and that aura is changing, so yes i have proof Gohan was SSJ2 but ofc no one belives in that.

That isn't proof he was Super Saiyan 2. At best it's proof that he might have been, but I don't even agree with that. In the manga at least, I don't think there are many, if any panels where a Super Saiyan 2 could be mistaken for a Super Saiyan. The closest things are really far away shots where it's not possible to have such details on them. Gohan lacking the aura and lightning for an entire chapter is just too questionable.

[Kingdom Heartless]

Anyone else ever managed to beat LSSj Broly as Muten Roshi in Tenkaichi 3's story mode?

Actually, yeah, I'm pretty sure I did... I think I felt I had to.

[hleV]

I didn't say "Gokuu X Vegeta = Vegetto" is a plothole, just that I don't think it's meant to be taken literally due to the fact that there's a statement in the same section saying that Potara's closer than multiplication than addition, rather than strictly being a multiplication of two characters' battle powers.

Well, right there it's talking about Potara Fusion overally, which obviously is not A × B in all (or most) other cases, but later they go on to Goku & Vegeta's fusion specifically.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The "equation" isn't part of a sentence or anything. It's more like a big blurb that happens to be on the page. Not only that, but "x" isn't always a multiplication sign. The manga Hunter x Hunter isn't "Hunter times Hunter"; when Digimon fuse in Xros Wars, "Digimon A x Digimon B" doesn't refer to a multiplication, but a "cross" of the two. It could simply be taken as "Goku crossed with Vegeta gets you Vegetto"--I mean, if it had been "Goku + Vegeta = Vegetto", I definitely wouldn't have taken it as math, but in the literal "you put these two together and get this guy" sort of way. But with the line about it being "as great as multiplication" on the same page, I can see why people take it the way they do.

Hmm... now these words are actually putting me into a lot of thinking now. Maybe the multiplication part is referring to the same think Daizenshuu refers too. Vegetto is several times stronger than Goku/Vegeta, this "several times" must be the multiplication SEG was talking about. So, the "Goku X Vegeta" part is "Goku cross Vegeta".
Thanks a lot for clearing things up, Bussani.

[Bussani]

No problem. I really can see it being argued either way. It's funny how many of the lines from the guides can be interpreted differently by different people.

[Fox666]

I mean, if it had been "Goku + Vegeta = Vegetto", I definitely wouldn't have taken it as math, but in the literal "you put these two together and get this guy" sort of way.

This is from Son Goku Densetsu. This very same guidebooks says that after the fusion the kids are "several times" stronger.

But with the line about it being "as great as multiplication" on the same page, I can see why people take it the way they do.

It is certainly confusing. At the same that line seems to avoid refering to it as multiplication, it uses that word right next to the "Goku x Vegeta".

[DBZGTKOSDH]

@Fox666 The lines you quoted are said by Bussani, not me.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I didn't say "Gokuu X Vegeta = Vegetto" is a plothole

I wasn't talking about this. I was talking about your sentence I quoted, when you said that sometimes one thing contradict each other. For example, SEG contradicted Daizenshuu about Vegetto's strength. I made a theory on it, if there is any inconsistency, you are more than welcomed to correct me.

Right, well, you're welcome to do that, but I choose not to believe that.

I don't think it's meant to be taken literally due to the fact that there's a statement in the same section saying that Potara's closer than multiplication than addition, rather than strictly being a multiplication of two characters' battle powers.

At least I got what you & other guys meant by saying that it's not literal. But still, it's something close to multiplication, and by the Goku X Vegeta, something close to multiplication between the two person's battle powers.

Yeah, but again, "battle power" doesn't necessarily have to refer to the characters' numbered battle powers, in the sense of how the Saiyans and Freeza's gang percieve it, with their scouters and whatnot. And "something close to multiplication" doesn't have to mean "literal exact multiplication".

Well, no offence, but that's hilarious. I can't think of any right now, but there are other what-if scenarios in DB video games that are completely retarded and the battles' outcome would never happen realistically.

Yeah, yeah I know. I completely understand your point here. Bardock vs Freeza is an example, no, it's lots of examples . But Vegetto being slightly stronger than Gogeta is believable. Potara & Fusion are different methods of merging, Vegetto & Gogeta are proof that the Potara result differs in appearance compared to the Fusion result. Why shouldn't there be a difference in their power as well? Besides, Fusion is a method invented by a random alien race, while Potara is a godly invention. We don't what are the differences between Potara, Fusion, Namekian merging, or Abo's & Kado's meging.
I just mention the video games in this case, because in this case they don't contradict anything, (unlike the Bardock beating Freeza, Bardock keeping up his own against Freeza, Android arc Kaio-ken Goku, Boo arc Gohan & Goten, Yamcha beating Vegeta, etc.) so if they are official sources and don't contradict anything, the are approved by me, for me.

I didn't say I didn't think Vegetto being slightly stronger than Gogeta wasn't believable, and I even think that myself. Just that you were saying Vegetto could beat Gogeta even without the 30 minutes running out, and I don't think it's definitive as that.

But when the video games have one thing that makes sense, and others that don't, you don't have to take everything in it seriously or "canon" (can't think of a better word). Despite being official, they're not a guidebook and they're just glorified opinions or fun little match-ups that Bandai, Spike or whoever made up. But you're free to think what you want.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And "something close to multiplication" doesn't have to mean "literal exact multiplication".

I've already changed my mind on this. Check my previous posts.

[Piccolo Daimao]

And "something close to multiplication" doesn't have to mean "literal exact multiplication".

I've already changed my mind on this. Check my previous posts.

Ah, OK. Sorry, I just saw your post before replying to me and skimmed the rest.