Is Golden Freeza Stronger then SSJ4 Gogeta?

[Saiyan007]

then Gt would lose by default since they don't have the evidence to say they can move that fast

When Beerus have feats of him moving at speeds that make light look like a snail

[pacz360]

I think it's pointless to argue on who's faster than who since gt and super exist on two different timelines that and we really don't know how guys like golden Freeza fit gt power hierarchy

[Saiyan007]

How is it pointless?

This is like saying you're richer than bill Gates although your homeless

There's nothing you have that can compare to bill Gates that shows you have more money

Likewise with gt.Beerus showed more speed than anyone in Gt you can't say we'll you can't compare because Gt doesn't have a feat like that.

That's exactly what makes them slower because they don't have any kind of speed comparable to Beerus

[Darkprince410]

No, you can't say one wins by default simply because there's no feats showing the other one is capable of moving that fast. It simply means there aren't any facts available for it, which is a big difference.The only way that one can legitimately say that the high tier characters in GT are faster or slower than Beerus is, is for there to be feats from both to calculate from. We don't have enough details with Beerus's "feats" to make any legitimate determinations of his speed, and GT has none, so as Kaboom said, the only thing we can really say is we can't make an assessment over which is faster. We can't say "Oh, one doesn't have feats" so the other is obviously faster, because that's just not how that logically works out.

[supercat]

While there is no irrefutable evidence backing either fighter up, we can leverage the information we do have, and make some reasonable guesses.

Based on BoG, we know that both SSJ Gogeta and SSJ Vegetto were likely worlds below Beerus. Had that not been the case, Goku would have at the very least given either route stronger consideration. Although we don't know the exact gap between SSJ4 Goku and SSJ Vegetto, we're hinted that the two are not that far off from each other in power. Personally, I feel SSJ4 Goku has a moderate power advantage over SSJ Vegetto.

When Goku turned SSG, he was able to put up a decent fight against Beerus. In fact, it was even deemed that the Saiyan was roughly around 60% of his seemingly invincible opponent. Looking at how much Goku has caught up to Beerus after becoming an SSG, we could assume that he too is now leagues above SSJ Vegetto and also likely his SSJ4 counterpart.

Considering how Goku was training prior to becoming an SSG, it would appear that cramming in some training was an option. Therefore, even as SSJ Vegetto, the gap between him and Beerus was likely something that Goku felt couldn't be closed with mere training. Knowing him, if he was even able to reach 40-50% of Beerus' power as SSJ Vegetto, he probably would have taken a shot at it, with post fusion training as his trump card.

Even with all that information, it's pretty difficult to determine where exactly SSG Goku stands in comparison to powerhouses like Omega Shenron and SSJ4 Gogeta. However, seeing how SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta (who are both likely far below SSG Goku) were able to tolerate quite a beating from Omega Shenron, my personal guess is that the Shadow Dragon is at the best only marginally stronger than Golden Frieza, but still below Beerus.

While Gogeta utterly humiliating Omega was quite impressive, I consider Whis subduing Beerus with a casual chop an even greater feat.

When all is said and done, I basically feel there is a lot of logic behind the following:

Whis: 15
SSJ4 Gogeta: 14
Beerus: 10
Omega Shenron 8 - 8.5
Golden Frieza: 8
SSGSS Goku / SSGSS Vegeta: 7.5
SSG Goku (BoG): 6
Super 17 (energy absorbed): 5.5
SSJ4 Goku: 4.5
SSJ Vegetto: 2 - 2.5


Whis > SSJ4 Gogeta > Beerus > Omega Shenron > / = Golden Frieza > SSGSS Goku / Vegeta > SSG Goku (BoG) > Super 17 (energy absorbed) > SSJ4 > SSJ Vegetto

[Lord Gogeta]

Apparently Lord Beerus flew from his temple which was outside the universe to a planet in the universe . The impressive part is , that it took 26 minutes from Beerus's to King Kai's, yet it only took 3 minutes from King Kai's to Earth which is on a Universal distance. So Basically Beerus flew the equivalent of universes's distance in under 2 minutes. Damn!He was muuuch faster then whis's staff,lol

https://youtu.be/xGbjb-bEi8I

[Saiyan007]

No, you can't say one wins by default simply because there's no feats showing the other one is capable of moving that fast. It simply means there aren't any facts available for it, which is a big difference.The only way that one can legitimately say that the high tier characters in GT are faster or slower than Beerus is, is for there to be feats from both to calculate from. We don't have enough details with Beerus's "feats" to make any legitimate determinations of his speed, and GT has none, so as Kaboom said, the only thing we can really say is we can't make an assessment over which is faster. We can't say "Oh, one doesn't have feats" so the other is obviously faster, because that's just not how that logically works out.

There's more than enough detail in beerus feat to say he is pretty fast

[Pantalones]

The only BoG vs. GT comparison that can be made is if you go by the "Super Saiyan Vegerot might be even stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Goku" comment in one of the guides. We know Beerus was "strongest in the history of Z," and on top of that Goku commented that even fusing with Vegeta (using a vague term which could refer to either or both forms of fusion) wouldn't be enough to handle Beerus (and remember, he hadn't seen anything close to Beerus' full power at this point... only the degree of power he showed against SSj3 Goku, Gohan, Buu, Vegeta, and everyone else.) So Beerus is definitely stronger than SSj Vegerot, likely much stronger... and if SSj Vegerot is at or maybe even above the level that SSj4 Goku was at on his first appearance that means Beerus is also much stronger than SSj4 Goku.

SSj4 Gogeta pretty much has to be above Beerus' level, though, considering that the fusion dance is described as making someone "tens of times" stronger than their component parts. Unless SSj4 Goku and Vegeta, even when "beyond limits," only measure up as very small fractions on BoG's 15-point scale, there's no way for SSj4 Gogeta to be "tens of times" their strength and end up anything less than Beerus' equal.

...so to answer the thread's question... considering that SSj4 Gogeta might be above Beerus' level (assuming that the Battle of Gods guys aren't ridiculously far ahead of SSj3 Vegerot to the point where SSj1 Vegerot and the SSj4s don't even register on the 15-point scale, anyway) and Golden Freeza most certainly is not above Beerus' level, Golden Freeza probably isn't stronger than SSj4 Gogeta (and maybe not quite as strong as Omega Shenron either.) But he could effortlessly stomp SSj4 Goku or pretty much anyone else in GT short of Omega Shenron and maybe regular Syn Shenron depending on just how big the SSJ4/BoG gap actually is.

But really, since we don't know exactly how far above SSj Vegerot/SSj4 Goku the Battle of Gods/Resurrection F guys are supposed to be, it's hard to even guess at how they compare to anyone else in GT. The only way to do it is "if so-and-so is this much weaker, then..." and go from there.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Apparently Lord Beerus flew from his temple which was outside the universe to a planet in the universe . The impressive part is , that it took 26 minutes from Beerus's to King Kai's, yet it only took 3 minutes from King Kai's to Earth which is on a Universal distance. So Basically Beerus flew the equivalent of universes's distance in under 2 minutes. Damn!He was muuuch faster then whis's staff,lol

https://youtu.be/xGbjb-bEi8I

As per all the guidebooks, Beerus' temple is within the mortal universe, the same living section with the planets like Earth, New Namek, etc. Though we don't know what quadrant.

It's possible Beerus lives on the outskirts of the South Quadrant and so it took a long time to get to North Kaio's, but a short time from North Kaio's to Earth (in the North Quadrant).

[Lord Gogeta]

Apparently Lord Beerus flew from his temple which was outside the universe to a planet in the universe . The impressive part is , that it took 26 minutes from Beerus's to King Kai's, yet it only took 3 minutes from King Kai's to Earth which is on a Universal distance. So Basically Beerus flew the equivalent of universes's distance in under 2 minutes. Damn!He was muuuch faster then whis's staff,lol

https://youtu.be/xGbjb-bEi8I

As per all the guidebooks, Beerus' temple is within the mortal universe, the same living section with the planets like Earth, New Namek, etc. Though we don't know what quadrant.

It's possible Beerus lives on the outskirts of the South Quadrant and so it took a long time to get to North Kaio's, but a short time from North Kaio's to Earth (in the North Quadrant).

Where does it say that? As far is I'm concerned he lives outside the universe . IS even implied in BoG bvause it takes more time from Beerus's to King Kai's then from the Afterlife then to Earth. Which is like half the universe or universal distance .Also Goku cant sense Freeza's Ki alone when he is at Beerus 's realm because it is too far yet he can sense anyone with ease from King Kai's to the universe , BTW Even Kaioshin's realm is outside the universe, don't tell me Beerus s' realm is in the living universe .

[Sora Saiyan]

I also believe that Beerus is much faster and more powerful judging by the new feats. The new feat supposedly puts him at a few billions of times FTL on the low end, I really don't believe that GT is anywhere near that level, nothing's been shown to put them anywhere near that level, hell, I can't even think of an FTL feat or statement, so claiming they can be billions of times FTL when they haven't shown light speed is a bit absurd. This really isnt gonna happen, but if Beerus destroyed the Universe can somebody then claim GT characters could've done it because they haven't shown they can't?

Different topic, but Beerus is getting feats that will allow him to tangle with some quite powerful versions of Superman, I'm sure as hell GT characters couldn't.

[Lord Gogeta]

I also believe that Beerus is much faster and more powerful judging by the new feats. The new feat supposedly puts him at a few billions of times FTL on the low end, I really don't believe that GT is anywhere near that level, nothing's been shown to put them anywhere near that level, hell, I can't even think of an FTL feat or statement, so claiming they can be billions of times FTL when they haven't shown light speed is a bit absurd. This really isnt gonna happen, but if Beerus destroyed the Universe can somebody then claim GT characters could've done it because they haven't shown they can't?

Different topic, but Beerus is getting feats that will allow him to tangle with some quite powerful versions of Superman, I'm sure as hell GT characters couldn't.

eeeh what are you talking about? There are many ftl feats way back in Dragonball and in Saiyan Saga. Did you not watched it or read the manga?

Of course Beerus is billions and much more faster then light.

[Sora Saiyan]

I've read the manga multiple times, seen the anime like once or twice. Can't really remember any FTL feats, well not from the manga anyway, the only one i've seen people claim in the manga is when kid Goku reacts to Taiyoken.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

As per all the guidebooks, Beerus' temple is within the mortal universe, the same living section with the planets like Earth, New Namek, etc. Though we don't know what quadrant.

It's possible Beerus lives on the outskirts of the South Quadrant and so it took a long time to get to North Kaio's, but a short time from North Kaio's to Earth (in the North Quadrant).

Where does it say that? As far is I'm concerned he lives outside the universe . IS even implied in BoG bvause it takes more time from Beerus's to King Kai's then from the Afterlife then to Earth. Which is like half the universe or universal distance .Also Goku cant sense Freeza's Ki alone when he is at Beerus 's realm because it is too far yet he can sense anyone with ease from King Kai's to the universe , BTW Even Kaioshin's realm is outside the universe, don't tell me Beerus s' realm is in the living universe .

I just gave an example of how it could take that long...

Anyway, as I said, in all the guidebooks that cover the subject as far as I know, starting with the Battle of Gods Official Movie Guide (as noted by Herms):

The Movie Guide does say his palace is in the universe as opposed to the afterlife, so there's that at least.

[Polyphase Avatron]

The characters in Dragon Ball can be as strong as you want them to be. Why? Because they don't exist.

Well, with the exception of one of them. Only in real life he isn't a robot.

[Cetra]

then Gt would lose by default since they don't have the evidence to say they can move that fast

When Beerus have feats of him moving at speeds that make light look like a snail

That is nonsense. It means you cannot compare them and that's it. By your "logic" Goku in the Saiyajin Saga is faster than the GT characters because we have something to tell how fast he is in it and in GT we don't know how fast or slow they are/have become. Or Gohan in the Boo Saga. Take whatever example you want. Nothing of it will work anyway. We don't know it and there is nothing more to that. And everything you have for Beerus is just an assumption based on fan calculations that mean nothing, especially in a world of Dragon Ball that was purposely used so the author does not need to care about rules/law of physic/any exact real life calculation/depiction of the world/et cetera.

[Lord Gogeta]

I've read the manga multiple times, seen the anime like once or twice. Can't really remember any FTL feats, well not from the manga anyway, the only one i've seen people claim in the manga is when kid Goku reacts to Taiyoken.

There are several like Golu dodging lasers, reactiing to solar flare, reacting for the magic pole who can extend to the moon in seconds(sub realistic) . Also Raditz dodging the special beam canon, when a no name attack of picolo reaches the moon in 2 seconds (anime) or seemed right away (manga)

Raditz had at least a Light speed feat ,likely ftl.
In Japanese anime ,Yamcha says Goku moves at lightspeed and thinks is slow. That's from 23rd Budokai.

After Raditz, everyone is ftl no doubt. At least in reflexes/combat speed .

Goku's travel speed in Namek was ftl. He crossed Namek almost instantly for the face of the planet before freeza hits Vegeta.

The best speed feat before Beerus is Goku SSJ being so fast that King Kai cannot track or pinpoint him, yet he could track/pinpoint and see Goku's spaceship who rossed 1/5 of the universe in 6 days.

That's why Beerus speed, being muuuuuuuch faster then any Z character (Non Gods) ,doesn't surprise me at all

[Lord Gogeta]

As per all the guidebooks, Beerus' temple is within the mortal universe, the same living section with the planets like Earth, New Namek, etc. Though we don't know what quadrant.

It's possible Beerus lives on the outskirts of the South Quadrant and so it took a long time to get to North Kaio's, but a short time from North Kaio's to Earth (in the North Quadrant).

Where does it say that? As far is I'm concerned he lives outside the universe . IS even implied in BoG bvause it takes more time from Beerus's to King Kai's then from the Afterlife then to Earth. Which is like half the universe or universal distance .Also Goku cant sense Freeza's Ki alone when he is at Beerus 's realm because it is too far yet he can sense anyone with ease from King Kai's to the universe , BTW Even Kaioshin's realm is outside the universe, don't tell me Beerus s' realm is in the living universe .

I just gave an example of how it could take that long...

Anyway, as I said, in all the guidebooks that cover the subject as far as I know, starting with the Battle of Gods Official Movie Guide (as noted by Herms):

The Movie Guide does say his palace is in the universe as opposed to the afterlife, so there's that at least.

I would like to see proof of that

[Sora Saiyan]

I've read the manga multiple times, seen the anime like once or twice. Can't really remember any FTL feats, well not from the manga anyway, the only one i've seen people claim in the manga is when kid Goku reacts to Taiyoken.

There are several like Golu dodging lasers, reactiing to solar flare, reacting for the magic pole who can extend to the moon in seconds(sub realistic) . Also Raditz dodging the special beam canon, when a no name attack of picolo reaches the moon in 2 seconds (anime) or seemed right away (manga)

Raditz had at least a Light speed feat ,likely ftl.
In Japanese anime ,Yamcha says Goku moves at lightspeed and thinks is slow. That's from 23rd Budokai.

After Raditz, everyone is ftl no doubt. At least in reflexes/combat speed .

Goku's travel speed in Namek was ftl. He crossed Namek almost instantly for the face of the planet before freeza hits Vegeta.

The best speed feat before Beerus is Goku SSJ being so fast that King Kai cannot track or pinpoint him, yet he could track/pinpoint and see Goku's spaceship who rossed 1/5 of the universe in 6 days.

That's why Beerus speed, being muuuuuuuch faster then any Z character (Non Gods) ,doesn't surprise me at all

Didn't the lasers make an explosion when they hit the ground though? Real lasers don't do that right? The Taiyoken could've just been Goku reacting to sound... Instead of getting into all of these, we know that Goku isn't FTL on his trip to Kaios so it goes against the prior showings. I do believe the high tiers in the manga could be FTL though.

The anime seems to have FTL feats by late Freeza arc then, but the trip to Roshi's, when Goku used Shunkan Ido, shouldn't have been as baffling as it was made out to be. I dunno.

[Lord Gogeta]

I've read the manga multiple times, seen the anime like once or twice. Can't really remember any FTL feats, well not from the manga anyway, the only one i've seen people claim in the manga is when kid Goku reacts to Taiyoken.

There are several like Golu dodging lasers, reactiing to solar flare, reacting for the magic pole who can extend to the moon in seconds(sub realistic) . Also Raditz dodging the special beam canon, when a no name attack of picolo reaches the moon in 2 seconds (anime) or seemed right away (manga)

Raditz had at least a Light speed feat ,likely ftl.
In Japanese anime ,Yamcha says Goku moves at lightspeed and thinks is slow. That's from 23rd Budokai.

After Raditz, everyone is ftl no doubt. At least in reflexes/combat speed .

Goku's travel speed in Namek was ftl. He crossed Namek almost instantly for the face of the planet before freeza hits Vegeta.

The best speed feat before Beerus is Goku SSJ being so fast that King Kai cannot track or pinpoint him, yet he could track/pinpoint and see Goku's spaceship who rossed 1/5 of the universe in 6 days.

That's why Beerus speed, being muuuuuuuch faster then any Z character (Non Gods) ,doesn't surprise me at all

Didn't the lasers make an explosion when they hit the ground though? Real lasers don't do that right? The Taiyoken could've just been Goku reacting to sound... Instead of getting into all of these, we know that Goku isn't FTL on his trip to Kaios so it goes against the prior showings. I do believe the high tiers in the manga could be FTL though.

The anime seems to have FTL feats by late Freeza arc then, but the trip to Roshi's, when Goku used Shunkan Ido, shouldn't have been as baffling as it was made out to be. I dunno.

Nah Goku reacted to the light, otherwise he would have be blinded. As for Goku the Snake way is just travel speed and not combat/reaction speed. Also it was mostly PIS, since It was for plot porpuses that he arrives late.

Raditz did have an ftl feat . Freeza and Goku have mftl feat according to king kai.

Anime and manga are the same anyway. Anime has just extra feat to back up manga's claims. That's all.