How strong is Goku Jr?

[Savage68]

Oh, yeah. I was going to say that I confused her with Bra, but that would still be wrong.

Where the hell did I get "14-year-old" from...?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Oh, yeah. I was going to say that I confused her with Bra, but that would still be wrong.

Where the hell did I get "14-year-old" from...?

Dubism? FUNi's GT took place ten years after Z...

[Savage68]

It couldn't have been that, because I've never heard anyone in FUNi's dub comment on the time lapse between Z and GT. When was it made?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

It couldn't have been that, because I've never heard anyone in FUNi's dub comment on the time lapse between Z and GT. When was it made?

http://dragonballgt.com/?page=sagas
I don't remember if it is actually said in the dub, I haven't watched the GT dub in forever.

[JulieYBM]

Common internet rumors back in the day was that the series took place ten years after Dragon Ball Z. I'm not sure where it originated but it was probably because we had little material to go off of. I'm willing to bet somebody misinterpreted the "ten years after Majin Boo was defeated" as being another ten years later, in refference to when Dragon Ball GT took place.

I'm sure herr Herms shall have a big ass section on this when he gets around to finishing up his timeline guide for Kanzentai.

[Rocketman]

but if you could get the hydrogen out of the water, then you have a pretty efficient energy source right there.

You'd better not even be thinking about hydrogen fusion.

[Bussani]

but if you could get the hydrogen out of the water, then you have a pretty efficient energy source right there.

You'd better not even be thinking about hydrogen fusion.

I was thinking closer to a hydrogen fuel cell, but there's a pretty big problem there if you try to think about it with real science. Hence the "pretty special enzymes" part.

For those who are curious, the problem is that separating the hydrogen from the oxygen in a water molecule takes as much energy as you'd get by using the hydrogen for fuel in a normal, real life fuel cell. But...this is Dragon Ball.

[Dayspring]

Am I the only one who thought Goku Jr was friggin' weak? He regularly got his ass handed to him by a regular human child. That means he's got a BP (in base form) below 5. He's basically another Goten and Trunks when it comes to transforming easily, so going by the x50 theory, that means his BP at max is beneath 250. I don't subscribe to the x50 rules, though, so I even think he's only Pilaf-Goku strong or 21st Budokai at most.

[p123]

It's anyone's guess really. There is no set standard of SSJ level of power in GT. In Z we know there is somewhat of a general range where SSJs should be. So based on Z, canon logic SSJs range from 150 million to perhaps between 5 and 10 billion. However in GT they have Base Saiyans above 50 million let alone SSJs.

Anyone's guess is good here. GT in the illogical way they do things, cause silly issues all the time. Although I would probably suggest them closer to being in Z range with the implications of the Hero's legacy and that they are descendants with only a small portion of saiyan blood. Future Kid Trunks is probably the weakest SSJ ever suggested in the manga. So it's possible they are even that strength as well.

[B]

It's anyone's guess really. There is no set standard of SSJ level of power in GT. In Z we know there is somewhat of a general range where SSJs should be. So based on Z, canon logic SSJs range from 150 million to perhaps between 5 and 10 billion. However in GT they have Base Saiyans above 50 million let alone SSJs.

Super Saiyan has a fixed increase; it doesn't just shoot your BP to eleventy bazillion.

[p123]

Agreed. SSJ is fixed.

Regular SSJ is implied to be 50x

MSSJ / 5 = Base


MSSJ is about bringing out the full power and potential of a SSJ for the user. So it's more about the potential ( MSSJ ) divided by the number, than base times a number. Buu Saga implications if taken seriously equate to a much smaller boost than what was implied by the Freeza Saga. Not everyone takes the implications seriously though, but most would agree that if the Buu Saga was DB as if it was the only saga, as in there was no Freeza Saga, no way would you think of SSJ as a 50 boost.


Also, Base Saiyans being as strong as Kid Buu in GT is just crazy, which forces SSJ to be much stronger, but I'm sure you weren't regarding that.

[Dayspring]

Agreed. SSJ is fixed.

Regular SSJ is implied to be 50x

No it's not. We have one, single, solitary example in all of the series that has someone becoming stronger than x40. That doesn't imply a fixed x50 gain for everybody.

The series after Freeza actually implies a whole new power range gets added on top of your base's range which. To get that x50 you're referring to against Freeza, Goku would just need his added range to be around 150 mil.

[p123]

Ah, finally , haven't heard that in a while. I have argued that many times as well. People cite that the Kamehameha not killing Freeza suggets 50% > KKx20 but then fail to realize that Goku would be on even terms with Freeza and not kill him, when he is supposed to be superior to Vegeta and still manages not to kill him. Then others suggest that Freeza raised his power to 70% but it;s still a moot point. Goku as a superior couldn't kill someone, him being an equal is really not that crazy.

But the wave of 50x supporters is ridicolously high, the fandom is generally against anything other than that boost, so I've come to accept it and create explanations for the why and how it is that way.

But you make a good point, many could argue that SSJ is only a 40x boost and that would be perfectly plausible IMO.


Logically though, boosts should be the same. It's illogical to think that Toriyama sat there and created varying boosts for characters. Imagine a base saiyan demolishing another base saiyan, then they both turn SSJ and the guy who was getting beat starts demolishing the guy who was beating him. THat is a ridicolous sentiment IMO, and boosts should be equal for the appropriate times.

[Dayspring]

Logically though, boosts should be the same. It's illogical to think that Toriyama sat there and created varying boosts for characters.

Um, why?

Imagine a base saiyan demolishing another base saiyan, then they both turn SSJ and the guy who was getting beat starts demolishing the guy who was beating him. THat is a ridicolous sentiment IMO, and boosts should be equal for the appropriate times.

Except it supports what we see in the manga, whereas the constant x50 refutes everything except for the pre-android SSJs.

[p123]

Varying boosts is silly. Please provide one example where the stronger SSJ is beaten by the weaker SSJs base.

This is about the appropirate timeframe.

Freeza - Pre Rosat SSJs should all have the same boost.

Where is it implied to have vastly differing varying boosts?

[Savage68]

Oh, lord. P123's trying to take over this board, too.

[p123]

Haha, yes anywhere you go, I go... Lol... This place seems pretty good. Looking to get a little back and forth with Herms though. But this seems like a knowledgable forum. And doesn't appear to be troll happy either.

[Rocketman]

Varying boosts is silly. Please provide one example where the stronger SSJ is beaten by the weaker SSJs base.

Future Gohan vs Trunks?

[p123]

Good example. However, Trunks is exhausted, and his SSJ by that point is probably minimal. We know Gohan is somewhere around Goku Namek. SO let's say Gohan's base is three million, now divide that by 50. For a full power SSJ Trunks to be weaker than a 3 million Base Gohan, Trunks base would have to be around 50,000 or so. So it's up to you. Do you think it is even possible to turn SSJ with a base that low? Or is it that Trunks was already tired and his power was coming down anyway. He loses the form shortly there after. IMO this is like SSJ Vegeta after kiling Android 19, he is heavily exhausted and can't really support the SSJ form .


But if you think Trunks is 50,000, I guess that's ok. But IMO it's not logical. Where is the significant change in boost though?


Also the question wasn't really set up like that.

The question is suggested that

Base Vegeta beats Base Goku up. SSJ Goku beats SSJ Vegeta up. THat's the kind of example I want.

I need a SSJ who is superior than another SSJ yet inferior in base.

In your example, it suggests that Trunks is weaker than Gohan in both base/ssj.

[Dayspring]

Good example. However, Trunks is exhausted, and his SSJ by that point is probably minimal.

Am I seriously the only one who sees that as proof that it's not a constant x50? For something to always be constant, it must be capable of remaining constant. If it's not a constant, then you can't call it one.

We know Gohan is somewhere around Goku Namek. SO let's say Gohan's base is three million, now divide that by 50. For a full power SSJ Trunks to be weaker than a 3 million Base Gohan, Trunks base would have to be around 50,000 or so. So it's up to you. Do you think it is even possible to turn SSJ with a base that low? Or is it that Trunks was already tired and his power was coming down anyway. He loses the form shortly there after. IMO this is like SSJ Vegeta after kiling Android 19, he is heavily exhausted and can't really support the SSJ form .


But if you think Trunks is 50,000, I guess that's ok. But IMO it's not logical.

But... you're the one arguing that it's a constant x50.

Where is the significant change in boost though?


Also the question wasn't really set up like that.

The question is suggested that

Base Vegeta beats Base Goku up. SSJ Goku beats SSJ Vegeta up. THat's the kind of example I want.

I need a SSJ who is superior than another SSJ yet inferior in base.

In your example, it suggests that Trunks is weaker than Gohan in both base/ssj.

Only because Trunks is weaker than Gohan in both. Gohan says Trunks is going to surpass him soon. That doesn't make any sense if it's a constant x50 multiplyer. If it's different boosts, it implies that the SSJ boost Gohan gets is nowhere near as great as the one Trunks gets.