The Series' Most Egregious Plothole

[Cipher]

It spun out of the "What if Piccolo Dodged?" thread. Kami could have prevented the entire Piccolo Daimao and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai incidents.

1. Kami can revive Shen-Long and make wishes immediately.



We find this out at the start of the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc. All he has to do is haul out the dragon statue, have Mr. Popo glue it back together, and breathe life into it again. He even allows Goku and friends to bypass the one-year wait, and they use the Dragon Balls again that same day.

2. Mr. Popo can gather the Dragon Balls in one day.



Fast forward to the Freeza arc. In the middle of Freeza and Goku's fight, Kami telepathically reaches Kaiou to tell him Mr. Popo has gathered all seven Dragon Balls. Wait, what? Kami has been alive for less than one day, which means the Dragon Balls have also been around for less than one day. The Dragon Balls were last used to revive Goku, the day before Piccolo's death, and they scattered all over the Earth. So it's not like they were all sitting in one spot or anything. Mr. Popo probably zipped around on his magic carpet and gathered them all in a matter of hours. We know he didn't use the Dragon Radar, because Bulma had it with her.

Unless Mr. Popo grabbed a second one from Bulma's parents for some reason. Like, he popped into the house and was all like, "Hey, can I borrow that Dragon Radar for a little bit? I'll bring it back, k thanx."



But we know that didn't happen, because that's fucking stupid. Hey, doesn't Goku pull an Ultimate Dragon Ball out of that dinosaur's stomach later? How did it get into space? Why does the same specie of dinosaur exist in space?

3. Kami actually wanted to do something about Piccolo.



Because he tells Goku. He says, "I want to take responsibility for Piccolo." Then he even steals a human body and learns the Mafuba to deal with him.

He steals a human body, learns a suicidal technique and goes through every round of a tournament in order to personally deal with Piccolo in a needlessly risky and incredibly complicated plan.

4. Hey idiot, why didn't you just revive the dragon and have Mr. Popo gather the balls so you could wish for Piccolo to be sealed up again?



Oh. I - I guess there wasn't really any reason to not do that. At all.

Unless...

5. But maybe Kami can actually see far into the future, and knew that by letting Goku fight Piccolo, he was actually saving the universe?

Here are the things that would have happened if Goku had not fought Piccolo at the end of the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and let him live.

1. Raditz would easily kill Goku and come back with Vegeta and Nappa to destroy all life on Earth.



2. The planet would be sold to aliens.



3. Those aliens would eventually be killed by Babidi and Dabura, who would revive Majin Buu.



4. Babidi and Buu would easily conquer the universe.



We know Kami has some amount of clairvoyance, because he's aware his own life will end one year before the Saiyans' arrival. He must have seen years into the outcome of his actions and determined letting Piccolo go was the right thing to do. That actually explains everything. Kami can just see into the futu-



Oh.

6. For that matter, Kami could also have prevented the entirety of Trunks' future.

Why couldn't you foresee your own death a year before that happened? You didn't think it would be useful to mention, "Hey, guys. I'm going to die in a year. There might be some new threat headed our way. Or I might just be old. Either way, it's probably a pretty good idea to consider fusing with Piccolo at this point, considering he'll die too. Or, I don't know. I just thought I should mention it in passing. Whatever."

But I guess everyone was too busy that day to listen.



Must'a been a pretty good show.

[Bussani]

4. Hey idiot, why didn't you just revive the dragon and have Mr. Popo gather the balls so you could wish Piccolo were sealed up?

I'm guessing this is working under the assumption that since Kami is physically stronger than Daimao, Shenlong must be able to affect him. I've never thought the "beyond the power of the creator" refers to physical strength, though. I mean, why would it? In which case, maybe sealing up Daimao could have been beyond the dragon's power. Maybe.

[Cipher]

I'm guessing this is working under the assumption that since Kami is physically stronger than Daimao, Shenlong must be able to affect him. I've never thought the "beyond the power of the creator" refers to physical strength, though. I mean, why would it? In which case, maybe sealing up Daimao could have been beyond the dragon's power. Maybe.

It's working under the assumption that, because the series gives me nothing to indicate Shen-Long can't seal up Daimao, Shen-Long can seal up Daimao.

[Bussani]

It's working under the assumption that, because the series gives me nothing to indicate Shen-Long couldn't seal up Daimao, Shen-Long can seal up Daimao.

Couldn't you take the fact that no one ever does it as an indication that he couldn't? But I'm countering conjecture with conjecture there, I think, so I'm going to leave it at that.

[Michsi]

The way I see it, their priority was to bring back everyone that died at Piccolo's hands, and I'm guess the exception kami's making with by-passing the one year rule works only because the dragon balls have somehow been reset. I doubt he could do that in normal cicurmstances as we see that Dende can't and Dende is supposed to be better than Kami at this. If they chose to seal up Piccolo instead of reviving thos who were killed,they'd have to wait another year and if I remember this correctly, you can't bring back somebody who has been dead longer than a year. And even if they did that would mean they would leave them in that special dimension of torment or whatever where the souls of those who were killed by Daimao drift.

And it's highly possible that Piccolo Jr. surpassed Kami i strength after one year.

[Bussani]

and if I remember this correctly, you can't bring back somebody who has been dead longer than a year.

That isn't the case. Kami only said that they'd need a limit like that if they were trying to bring back every person Vegeta and Nappa had ever killed, presumably because that would be too many people for even the dragon to handle at once.

that would mean they would leave them in that special dimension of torment or whatever where the souls of those who were killed by Daimao drift.

The place isn't a place at all--it's Earth. Instead of going to the afterlife, their souls would just float around in the air, which is implied to be unpleasant.

[Michsi]

The place isn't a place at all--it's Earth. Instead of going to the afterlife, their souls would just float around in the air, which is implied to be unpleasant.

Oh ok, but the point is that those souls would be suffering for one whole year.

That isn't the case. Kami only said that they'd need a limit like that if they were trying to bring back every person Vegeta and Nappa had ever killed, presumably because that would be too many people for even the dragon to handle at once.

I can't remember this. I could have sworn this was one of those rules like you can't bring back people from the dead twice.

[Bussani]

I can't remember this. I could have sworn this was one of those rules like you can't bring back people from the dead twice.

It's when Kami and Kaio are discussing what wish they can make. Kami only says that they'd be limited to those killed in the past year if they tried to bring back everyone Vegeta and Nappa killed, including those on other planets. Besides, if such a rule existed, telling Yamcha and Tenshinhan to stay dead for another year (which Yamcha says he's fine with) would be the same as telling them they're never getting wished back. I don't think they ended up waiting a whole year thanks to the Namekian balls, but no one knew they'd even still be available, much less that they recharge faster than the Earth ones.

[Michsi]

]
It's when Kami and Kaio are discussing what wish they can make. Kami only says that they'd be limited to those killed in the past year if they tried to bring back everyone Vegeta and Nappa killed, including those on other planets. Besides, if such a rule existed, telling Yamcha and Tenshinhan to stay dead for another year (which Yamcha says he's fine with) would be the same as telling them they're never getting wished back. I don't think they ended up waiting a whole year thanks to the Namekian balls, but no one knew they'd even still be available, much less that they recharge faster than the Earth ones.

For some reason I always though it was becaus Ten, Yamcha and Chaozu had their bodies in the afterlife. Altough this doesn't make much sense since the dragon could revive a whole lot more people at once in the Cell Saga.

Anyway Goku came to Kami with the desire to bring back his friends and kami granted that.

A plausible explanation would be Piccolo jr. being stronger than Kami from birth, altough I kinda doubt that. He does tell Goku though that he'd be safe from Piccolo on the lookout which does imply that Piccolo Jr. was already stronger than his father.
Or simply the mafuba was the only way to seal up Piccolo and that was technique that the Dragon couldn't mimic.

[SuperForteX]

Shen Long has never been able to magically wish the bad guys away before, why would he start now? Furthermore, what makes you think the Dragon could affect any sentient being without their consent? A more powerful Dragon couldn't even whisk Goku away to Earth, because he didn't want to go.

I admire what you've done with the pictures and the attempt at humor, but you didn't really think everything through. You haven't really identified any plot holes in this topic. Even the Kami not sensing his impending death because of the cyborgs is sort of wrong, since he actually did have a horrifying premonition around that time. Since history changed, his premonition morphed into fear of Cell instead of fear of the Cyborgs.

Anyway, in closing, we have Shen Long saying he can’t destroy the Saiyans, and we have Porunga saying he can’t bring Goku to Earth because Goku refuses to come. That’s two examples for Shen Long not being able to pull off something like what you’re proposing. How many examples do you have of a dragon accomplishing what you’re suggesting?

[SylentEcho]

Kami wasn't actually able to see his death coming. He just feared his time was up.

[Cipher]

Anyway, in closing, we have Shen Long saying he can’t destroy the Saiyans, and we have Porunga saying he can’t bring Goku to Earth because Goku refuses to come. That’s two examples for Shen Long not being able to pull off something like what you’re proposing. How many examples do you have of a dragon accomplishing what you’re suggesting?

The wish Kaio and Kami make to transfer everyone off Namek, for one. Nobody asks Vegeta what he wants to do.

The Goku situation appears to be a special case. The Saiyan wish also appears to be based on their strength, rather than not being able to move sentient beings. Oolong wishes for the Saiyans to be destroyed, to which Shen-Long responds, "I can't do anything that surpasses the power of my creator." The whole thing is meant to play up their strength. If it were a matter of not being able to transport or affect sentient beings without their consent, wouldn't the dragon say, "I can't affect sentient beings without their consent"?

But he specifically says, "I can't do anything that surpasses the power of my creator." The overwhelming implication is then the opposite: that, if the target didn't surpass that power, he could totally do it. Why should we assume he can't do it for a reason that has absolutely nothing to do with what he says, and when he later demonstrates the contrary?

That dragon can totally move Vegeta somewhere else. Maybe the dragon just can't kill things, and had Oolong simply wished for Nappa and Vegeta to be moved to a far off planet, it would've worked. Either way, there's no reason to believe he couldn't seal up or transfer Piccolo.

Kami wasn't actually able to see his death coming. He just feared his time was up.

I'm pretty sure he specifically predicts his own death. I even remember a line saying something like, "It's not a nice thing, even as a god, to know when one's life will end."

[Bussani]

Kami definitely knew that he and Piccolo were going to die in a year, one year before they did. He just didn't know how it was going to happen.

[Michsi]

It's rather a premonition than seeing the future. The same thing with what he felt with Cell but confused with the cyborgs. Piccolo displays the same ability a couple of times but it never really did anything. It's an uncertain ability that you can't really rely on.

[SuperForteX]

Anyway, in closing, we have Shen Long saying he can’t destroy the Saiyans, and we have Porunga saying he can’t bring Goku to Earth because Goku refuses to come. That’s two examples for Shen Long not being able to pull off something like what you’re proposing. How many examples do you have of a dragon accomplishing what you’re suggesting?

The wish Kaio and Kami make to transfer everyone off Namek, for one. Nobody asks Vegeta what he wants to do.

Although you may have a point that I overlooked, I could still just as easily argue semantics; and say that subconsiously, Vegeta wanted to live--and Porunga interpreted that as consent.

The Goku situation appears to be a special case.

Hm... I don't really see how. Unless you're saying Vegeta being sent to Earth without giving verbal consent is the indicator?

The Saiyan wish also appears to be based on their strength, rather than not being able to move sentient beings. Oolong wishes for the Saiyans to be destroyed, to which Shen-Long responds, "I can't do anything that surpasses the power of my creator."

Indeed, but when Shen Long says "power", he may more broadly mean "abilites" or even "political power". There's so many different ways to interprete any given obscure line in this manga. In such a sense, then sealing The Great Demon King away may be beyond Kami's power at the time, because Kami could not do so himself without knowing Mafuba technique, which he pesumably learned between the fall of THe Great Demon King and the birth of Wicked Junior. (Sorry if I'm annoying you with these random names I'm coming up with, this is out of boredum alone and not because I really refer to the characters as such.)

That dragon can totally move Vegeta somewhere else. Maybe the dragon just can't kill things, and had Oolong simply wished for Nappa and Vegeta to be moved to a far off planet, it would've worked. Either way, there's no reason to believe he couldn't seal up or transfer Piccolo.

Unless "sealing someone away" is viewed in the same light as "killing" them. I mean, it's basically the same thing, just that it doesn't actually end his life. It still removes him from the living world though, as you're more dead than you are alive spending thousands of years constrained to a rice cooker.

Anyway, since it's not outright established that Shen Long is capable of sealing Piccolo Daimao away, then it cannot be considered a plot hole that Kami didn't do so. If there was a showing or a statement proving that Shen Long was capable of sealing him away, and not simply lack of evidence to the contrary, then I could justify callin this a polt hole.

Erring on the side of caution, which would be to support the story that exists rather than try to belittle it, I'd say reason stands in favor of Shen Long not being able to do this, or else Kami certainly would have done so in his wisdom. To say otherwise makes the story (and by extension, the writer) seem outright stupid.

[Rocketman]

6. For that matter, Kami could also have prevented the entirety of Trunks' future.

Why couldn't you foresee your own death a year before that happened? You didn't think it would be useful to mention, "Hey, guys. I'm going to die in a year. There might be some new threat headed our way. Or I might just be old. Either way, it's probably a pretty good idea to consider fusing with Piccolo at this point, considering he'll die too. Or, I don't know. I just thought I should mention it in passing. Whatever."

But I guess everyone was too busy that day to listen.

This at least isn't Kami's fault. Even with absolutely knowing who what when and where the attack was coming and training to stop it, the only person even halfway able to fight the Androids was Super Vegeta. When Piccolo does fuse with Kami he's only able to tie 17 and would've likely died due to his energy running out.

[B]

I interpreted the "Goku refuses to come here" ordeal as Goku refusing and Porunga couldn't perform the wish because he's weaker. If Goku had no problem, he would've just "let" Porunga perform magic on him... However that works. Perhaps it's on the same wavelength as Trunks dropping his Battle Power to match Goten's for fusion; effectively making him weaker.

[GamingBuddha]

On the Goku issue, I take it more as Porunga was listening to Goku's request than he didn't have the power to bring Goku back.

Erring on the side of caution, which would be to support the story that exists rather than try to belittle it, I'd say reason stands in favor of Shen Long not being able to do this, or else Kami certainly would have done so in his wisdom. To say otherwise makes the story (and by extension, the writer) seem outright stupid.

Toriyama had the Z Warriors decide not to stop Dr. Gero before he builds his androids just so they could get a good fight. He had Krillin win a fight by realizing he that he didn't have a nose. His final villain was a pink monster with the mind of an infant that turned people into candy. I think it's safe to say he doesn't care about his story being stupid sometimes.

[SuperForteX]

None of that's stupid, it's pure brilliance.

As for everyone's various opinions on the Goku not being warped to Earth thing, you're only helping prove my point. And that point is: there's nothing solid to go on, you're forced to come up with your own interpretations. Therefore, nothing establishes it as a 'special case', so there's no way of proving anything Cipher brought up is a true plot hole.

I don't even see a single actual plot hole exposed in this thread.

p.s. as for the Z-warriors letting Gero continue to live so they'd get a good fight, that was only Vegeta's idea, and to a lesser extent, Goku's. Everyone else hated the idea but had to give in, remember?

[Michsi]

p.s. as for the Z-warriors letting Gero continue to live so they'd get a good fight, that was only Vegeta's idea, and to a lesser extent, Goku's. Everyone else hated the idea but had to give in, remember?

Actually nobody was shown to hate that idea except for Bulma. I believe Goku states clearly that he wanted to fight the androids, and iirc, Tenshinhan did so too. And aside from Bulma, nobody else disagreed.

There are quite a few plot holes in DB. Far less than people usually, believe but there are. I think there is an old thread around here somewhere with those.