The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ricky84 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:57 am

AvatarReiko wrote:Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta vs ROF Base Vegeta
Manga Zamasu vs Anime Zamasu
1. RoF Base Vegeta one shots, because enraged SSJ2 Vegeta from BoG was still in the Buu arc ranges of power, while RoF base Vegeta surpassed BoG SSG Goku.

2. Anime Zamasu one shots easily. Since the multiplier for SSB is lower in the manga (only 5x SSG, as opposed to at least 50x SSG in the anime) which makes everyonein the DBS manga by scaling much weaker than their anime versions. This is especially true for Merged Zamasu since MSSB Goku could handle him by himself in the manga, while M.Zamasu's anime version got a major power boost when he grew the purple arm, enough to become near-equal to Vegito Blue.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:12 pm

The focus on "busting" is missing the point. When he wants to devastate a planet, Saitama doesn't have to spend time charging to build up momentum, like Superman. Nor does he have to spend a comparative eternity winding up metaphysical energy in a weapon, like Thor. Nor does he need to spend a few seconds (may as well be an hour for these speedsters) charging up a gigantic voluminous beam or sphere, like Saiyan to Cell era Dragon Ball characters.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14197&p=1424056&hil ... s#p1424056

He just... swings his arm. Once. At explicitly less than the full output of one of his regular punches. For a character who, judging by the moon feat, is easily capable of swinging his limbs at significant fractions of c. That is enough to completely overpower and cancel out a blast with enough energy to reduce Earth to a molten (though still solid) rock, with enough energy left over that the air pressure generated by it killed Boros.

This is absolutely crazy if you think about it for more than five seconds. It's so bonkers.
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/r ... tables.php
I'm going to paraphrase another forumite on a different website, because I don't think people will properly understand otherwise.
I imagine "shaving the planet" would either mean blowing Terra's crust into space, or melting it. Interestingly enough, the energy to do the former so is only ~1/19th the energy of flat out blowing it up, and actually 12 times higher than the GBE of the moon. Melting the crust on the other hand is still a little under 1/4th the Moon's GBE and 1/1,000th the energy to blow the planet up, and 1/10,000th the Earth's GBE.

Extremely interesting to me is that apparently blowing the oceans into space alone is damn near the Moon's GBE. Which would suggest to me, in any event, in addition to taking into account issues of efficiency that increase the energy necessary for a given task incredibly, like from the fact that Boros's blast was only on one side of the planet and large amounts of vaporization, that Boros most likely is above Moon busting, even if you only defined him by partial melting, partially vaporizing, partially blasting the shit out of the crust.

If 100 serious punches from Saitama were equivalent to the Earth's GBE (2% efficiency in melting the crust, and Serious Punch 2x CSRC), and that doesn't actually strike me as being too few at all, then we're left with Saitama delivering 2.24-2.9e+32 joules in 167 nanoseconds. That's around 1.34-1.74e+41 watts.

Do you know what that's comparable to? That's comparable to the luminosity of the quasar APM 08279+5255, which is the brightest object ever seen in the observable universe. More even, by 30-70%.
Even reducing that figure to 10,000 punches to destroy the Earth, and it's comparable to the luminosity of a normal quasar. Which is still about a hundred times more luminous than the entire Milky Way Galaxy. Which of course means that if you increased the necessary punches again to 1,000,000, he'd still have have equivalent localized power output to every star in the galaxy. And frankly, this strikes me as too low, as it implies that Boros comes nowhere near even just boiling the oceans away, let alone that Saitama's punch should be much stronger than Boros's attack.

Even more terrifyingly, in terms of watts, each individual serious blow pulse is even still *waaaaay* higher, and this is just the transferred power averaged throughout a given second, not counting any blacklash, or trying to figure out how unbelievably short the impact time is.

Does that perhaps give some context on what those serious punches of his were like? Of how extreme they were? Do you really think that Zarbon was hitting power levels comparable to the luminosity of entire galaxies? Do you really think any of Freeza's army were seriously doing so with their fists?
The main point is that within a fraction of a second, Saitama's energy output by swinging his arms has exceeded a standard Earth buster's. Taking into account how much higher his energy/time ratio is (i.e. power) as well as how concentrated the energy delivered in his fist is versus a house-sized beam (or something the size of a stadium if talking about e.g. Freeza's death ball on planet Vegeta), the intensity of his output (what matters for durability) is literally millions of times greater than Vegeta's Galick Gun, for example. His total energy output per second (power], going by my calculated levels in the linked thread, is billions of times greater than any Freeza era character's.

Saying "Saiyan arc Vegeta can maybe destroy the Earth if he charges all his energy into a beam or his fist for a long ass time" is not really a viable counter argument to somebody who can unleash the force to do the same in less than a millionth of a second, and can unleash it as many more times as he can fit into the duration within that second.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:54 pm

ricky84 wrote:while RoF base Vegeta surpassed BoG SSG Goku
False. There's no reason to believe he surpassed SSG. Gohan and Kururin just made vague statements that made no direct comparison of power and aren't evidence of RoF Base>SSG BoG like a lot of people seem to believe. Additionally, only upon transforming into SSB is it stated that Goku surpassed SSG. The narrator and King Kai state that he had surpassed SSG upon transforming, and the implication is that only then did he surpass SSG and not at any point prior.

SSJ Goku/Vegeta post-BoG>BoG SSG Goku>Base Goku/Vegeta post BoG

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:49 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:*snip
Awesome breakdown of Saitama’s strength. I honestly don’t see any strike on Dragon Ball being even remotely close to that, visually speaking.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ricky84 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:59 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote: Goku swats her like a bug. Outside of inconsistent Toei-specific scenes, no one in Super actually seems drastically stronger outside of new forms, Freeza, or 17.
Which is clearly false. For example both KKx20 Goku and SSB Vegeta from ep.122 onward were much stronger than the KKx20 Goku from the hour special and had surpassed the 1st Omen in power in ep.123. And this was explicitly acknowledged in dialogue from the cast (especially Jiren himself) and the narrator as them getting stronger as the ToP went on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TC3xq6AnjM
They got stronger in the tournament, but I don’t see how you can compare some of these instances. For example, how exactly did SSB Vegeta surpass Kaioken SSB on ep.122 and Ultra Instinct on ep.123?
1. Compare KKx20 Goku's fight with Jiren in the hour special to SSB Vegeta's fight with Jiren in ep.122. He did way better against Jiren than both Goku and Hit did.

2. KKx20 Goku (post-Kelfa fight) and SSBE Vegeta in ep.123 were able to force Jiren to use way more of his power against them than he did against even the 1st UI Omen in the hour special. Belmod even said in that episode that Jiren is unleashing far more power than he had ever seen him use in many years in ep.123. This means Goku and Vegeta at that point had to have surpassed at least the 1st UI Omen (and everyone from the Black arc).
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:43 am

ricky84 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
Which is clearly false. For example both KKx20 Goku and SSB Vegeta from ep.122 onward were much stronger than the KKx20 Goku from the hour special and had surpassed the 1st Omen in power in ep.123. And this was explicitly acknowledged in dialogue from the cast (especially Jiren himself) and the narrator as them getting stronger as the ToP went on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TC3xq6AnjM
They got stronger in the tournament, but I don’t see how you can compare some of these instances. For example, how exactly did SSB Vegeta surpass Kaioken SSB on ep.122 and Ultra Instinct on ep.123?
1. Compare KKx20 Goku's fight with Jiren in the hour special to SSB Vegeta's fight with Jiren in ep.122. He did way better against Jiren than both Goku and Hit did.

2. KKx20 Goku (post-Kelfa fight) and SSBE Vegeta in ep.123 were able to force Jiren to use way more of his power against them than he did against even the 1st UI Omen in the hour special. Belmod even said in that episode that Jiren is unleashing far more power than he had ever seen him use in many years in ep.123. This means Goku and Vegeta at that point had to have surpassed at least the 1st UI Omen (and everyone from the Black arc).
You might be overlooking some things. Vegeta was clearly tossed aside from the fight until he imprinted Jiren’s movements and managed to catch him off guard. It wasn’t a matter of power, but perception. Much like Goku did with Hit when Vegeta went first. Besides, it was Goku and Vegeta combined assault with improper coordination that was throwing Jiren off balance, not their power.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ricky84 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:31 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: They got stronger in the tournament, but I don’t see how you can compare some of these instances. For example, how exactly did SSB Vegeta surpass Kaioken SSB on ep.122 and Ultra Instinct on ep.123?
1. Compare KKx20 Goku's fight with Jiren in the hour special to SSB Vegeta's fight with Jiren in ep.122. He did way better against Jiren than both Goku and Hit did.

2. KKx20 Goku (post-Kelfa fight) and SSBE Vegeta in ep.123 were able to force Jiren to use way more of his power against them than he did against even the 1st UI Omen in the hour special. Belmod even said in that episode that Jiren is unleashing far more power than he had ever seen him use in many years in ep.123. This means Goku and Vegeta at that point had to have surpassed at least the 1st UI Omen (and everyone from the Black arc).
You might be overlooking some things. Vegeta was clearly tossed aside from the fight until he imprinted Jiren’s movements and managed to catch him off guard. It wasn’t a matter of power, but perception. Much like Goku did with Hit when Vegeta went first. Besides, it was Goku and Vegeta combined assault with improper coordination that was throwing Jiren off balance, not their power.
How was Jiren off guard when he could clearly see and react to Vegeta's movements? 17 hitting Jiren in the back is an example of an off-guard attack, not anything from the Vegeta vs Jiren fight.

Also, Jiren powered up before Goku and Vegeta started using uncoordinated attacks against him, so that argument doesn't work. Besides, there is no way a character could perform better against a foe using a weaker transformation without getting stronger in general. Dragonball just doesn't work that way.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ricky84 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:37 am

UI Omen Goku Black vs Full Powered Base Jiren
Base Vegito (Buu saga) vs Base Goku (Baby arc)
Base Vegito (ToP) vs SSJ1 Kefla (initial)
Piccolo (ToP) vs Omega Shenron
MUI Merged Zamasu vs Whis
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:47 pm

ricky84 wrote:UI Omen Goku Black vs Full Powered Base Jiren
Base Vegito (Buu saga) vs Base Goku (Baby arc)
Base Vegito (ToP) vs SSJ1 Kefla (initial)
Piccolo (ToP) vs Omega Shenron
MUI Merged Zamasu vs Whis
1) Jiren.
2) Base Vegito > Buutenks; Base GT Goku > Kid Buu (slightly). Thus, the fusion stomps hard.
3) Base Vegito should be stronger than SsjB Goku and Vegeta, but that was Z logic while Super changes everything. No clue...
4) You're kidding right?
5) Probably Whis.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by MoscoSama » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:41 pm

[spoiler]Manga Gohan vs Manga Golden Freeza[/spoiler]

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Sonofman » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:53 pm

Dragon Ball Gus wrote:Android 18 (Survival Arc) vs SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)
There is no way 18 is as strong as SS3 Goku (Buu arc).

- No information indicates that 18 trained after the Buu arc. It's also highly unlikely since she has a child to take care of; Krillian and 18 "settled" down.
- Even if she did "train" she wouldn't even come close to the SS3 power, let alone a SS2 (humans can only be so strong, compared to Saiyan growth).
- She's not even as strong as a full-powered Super Saiyan (yes, the form Goku USED against PERFECT Cell; which is stronger than a normal Super Saiyan).
- 18's last fight during the Buu arc was against Kid Trunks and Goten (as Super Saiyans) and she was being pushed back. Meaning she isn't as strong as she was during her first appearance during the Android arc.
- 18 has limitless energy like her brother 17, doesn't mean she's powerful. Doesn't mean 17 is powerful either. Case CLOSED.

Note: The tournament of Power (anime) has a ton of power scaling issues. Android 18 and 17 lasted as long as they did because they had limitless stamina and energy... that's it.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:39 pm

ricky84 wrote:UI Omen Goku Black vs Full Powered Base Jiren
Base Vegito (Buu saga) vs Base Goku (Baby arc)
Base Vegito (ToP) vs SSJ1 Kefla (initial)
Piccolo (ToP) vs Omega Shenron
MUI Merged Zamasu vs Whis
-Jiren
-Vegito
-Kefla I guess I don't know. This one would probably be close.
-Omega Shenron easy, Piccolo isn't even stronger than Buu.
-Whis

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:20 am

ricky84 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
1. Compare KKx20 Goku's fight with Jiren in the hour special to SSB Vegeta's fight with Jiren in ep.122. He did way better against Jiren than both Goku and Hit did.

2. KKx20 Goku (post-Kelfa fight) and SSBE Vegeta in ep.123 were able to force Jiren to use way more of his power against them than he did against even the 1st UI Omen in the hour special. Belmod even said in that episode that Jiren is unleashing far more power than he had ever seen him use in many years in ep.123. This means Goku and Vegeta at that point had to have surpassed at least the 1st UI Omen (and everyone from the Black arc).
You might be overlooking some things. Vegeta was clearly tossed aside from the fight until he imprinted Jiren’s movements and managed to catch him off guard. It wasn’t a matter of power, but perception. Much like Goku did with Hit when Vegeta went first. Besides, it was Goku and Vegeta combined assault with improper coordination that was throwing Jiren off balance, not their power.
How was Jiren off guard when he could clearly see and react to Vegeta's movements? 17 hitting Jiren in the back is an example of an off-guard attack, not anything from the Vegeta vs Jiren fight.

Also, Jiren powered up before Goku and Vegeta started using uncoordinated attacks against him, so that argument doesn't work. Besides, there is no way a character could perform better against a foe using a weaker transformation without getting stronger in general. Dragonball just doesn't work that way.
Jiren wasn’t expecting Vegeta to read his movements. Obviously, that wouldn’t happen if Jiren was a bit serious. This is subtlety implied from Vegeta barely being able to make Jiren move a muscle seconds before and, as soon as Vegeta reinforced Jiren’s sloppiness, things started to go as expected again, including Vegeta being almost knocked out of the ring.

I’m not sure what you mean by “Jiren powered-up before Goku and Vegeta ganged up on him” and “Dragon Ball doesn’t work that way”. Are you suggesting SSB Goku surpassed his first Ultra Instinct level, giving that Goku clashes briefly with Jiren in that powered-up state? I suppose you are not familiar with Base Goku vs. Hit’s fight.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:30 am

Sonofman wrote:
Dragon Ball Gus wrote:Android 18 (Survival Arc) vs SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)
There is no way 18 is as strong as SS3 Goku (Buu arc).

- No information indicates that 18 trained after the Buu arc. It's also highly unlikely since she has a child to take care of; Krillian and 18 "settled" down.
- Even if she did "train" she wouldn't even come close to the SS3 power, let alone a SS2 (humans can only be so strong, compared to Saiyan growth).
- She's not even as strong as a full-powered Super Saiyan (yes, the form Goku USED against PERFECT Cell; which is stronger than a normal Super Saiyan).
- 18's last fight during the Buu arc was against Kid Trunks and Goten (as Super Saiyans) and she was being pushed back. Meaning she isn't as strong as she was during her first appearance during the Android arc.
- 18 has limitless energy like her brother 17, doesn't mean she's powerful. Doesn't mean 17 is powerful either. Case CLOSED.

Note: The tournament of Power (anime) has a ton of power scaling issues. Android 18 and 17 lasted as long as they did because they had limitless stamina and energy... that's it.
While I am skeptical that Goku would lose to 18 in this scenario, this is a poor argument. You did nothing but discredit the anime and provide conjecture and speculation. You can't just arbitrarily decide "there's no way she could come close to SSJ3 power!"

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:42 am

Manga Roshi vs Manga Merged Zamasu

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ricky84 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:22 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: You might be overlooking some things. Vegeta was clearly tossed aside from the fight until he imprinted Jiren’s movements and managed to catch him off guard. It wasn’t a matter of power, but perception. Much like Goku did with Hit when Vegeta went first. Besides, it was Goku and Vegeta combined assault with improper coordination that was throwing Jiren off balance, not their power.
How was Jiren off guard when he could clearly see and react to Vegeta's movements? 17 hitting Jiren in the back is an example of an off-guard attack, not anything from the Vegeta vs Jiren fight.

Also, Jiren powered up before Goku and Vegeta started using uncoordinated attacks against him, so that argument doesn't work. Besides, there is no way a character could perform better against a foe using a weaker transformation without getting stronger in general. Dragonball just doesn't work that way.
Jiren wasn’t expecting Vegeta to read his movements. Obviously, that wouldn’t happen if Jiren was a bit serious. This is subtlety implied from Vegeta barely being able to make Jiren move a muscle seconds before and, as soon as Vegeta reinforced Jiren’s sloppiness, things started to go as expected again, including Vegeta being almost knocked out of the ring.

I’m not sure what you mean by “Jiren powered-up before Goku and Vegeta ganged up on him” and “Dragon Ball doesn’t work that way”. Are you suggesting SSB Goku surpassed his first Ultra Instinct level, giving that Goku clashes briefly with Jiren in that powered-up state? I suppose you are not familiar with Base Goku vs. Hit’s fight.
Your argument doesn't explain why Jiren was taking Vegeta's fury of punches later in the fight more seriously than Goku's from the hour special. There was no implied sloppiness from Jiren in that episode. It's like you pull random headcanon out of nowhere.

Jiren powered up right before Goku reuses KKx20 and Vegeta unlocks SSBE for the first time, with Jiren saying I'm gonna need more power against these two. This was before the 2 ganged up on him with bad teamwork.

Hit didn't go all out on Goku when he was in base (he even said it himself), so that argument doesn't work either.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:55 am

Al Bundy vs Mister Satan.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:05 pm

Dragon Ball Gus wrote:Android 18 (Survival Arc) vs SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)
18 takes this easily. I personally have her stronger than Bootenks.
AvatarReiko wrote:Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta vs ROF Base Vegeta
Manga Zamasu vs Anime Zamasu
I actually have them close to eachother. SS2 Vegeta wins by an inch.
Anime by far. Manga Zamasu is pathetic.
ricky84 wrote:UI Omen Goku Black vs Full Powered Base Jiren
Base Vegito (Buu saga) vs Base Goku (Baby arc)
Base Vegito (ToP) vs SSJ1 Kefla (initial)
Piccolo (ToP) vs Omega Shenron
MUI Merged Zamasu vs Whis
Since I have Gokt [ToP] = Black. Jiren wins.
Goku takes this.
Base Kefla one shots.
Shenron I guess.
Not even the GP can wins this and if somehow he manages to destroy his body, Infinite Zamasu appears and kills him.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:45 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Al Bundy vs Mister Satan.
I love Al to death but no way is he taking down the champ in a fight

Maybe in a football match :D

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:53 pm

DestructoDisc wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Al Bundy vs Mister Satan.
I love Al to death but no way is he taking down the champ in a fight

Maybe in a football match :D
Satan is definitely a better fighter but Al does have some insane durability feats. He survived jumping off a plane, falling off a several story tall building, a fat woman wrestle jumping on him.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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