The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[zarmack]

This terminology that you are referencing isn't exactly generally accepted. "Suppressed Jiren" doesn't normally refer to a specific iteration of Jiren. Any iteration of Jiren other than at the end of 129, can be referred to as "Suppressed Jiren." Literally 109/110 Jiren, 122 Jiren, 123 Jiren, and 127 Jiren could all accurately be described as "suppressed Jiren."

Jiren unleashed his full power right after Vegeta beat Toppo in the end of 126. So Jiren from that point onward can't be called "suppressed".

He powers-up, but I don't think that's his full-power. In 128, he gets hit by UI Omen and like pukes and is clearly in pain, then the next episode he has the advantage, before finally having a giant fire ball being implied to be his maximum power, at the end of 129. I definitely don't think what we saw at the end of 126 was Jiren's full-power. He doesn't actually say it is, either. He just says something along the lines of "Watch this!"

The narrator flat out states at the end of 126 that Jiren brought out his full power.

[PFM18]

Jiren unleashed his full power right after Vegeta beat Toppo in the end of 126. So Jiren from that point onward can't be called "suppressed".

He powers-up, but I don't think that's his full-power. In 128, he gets hit by UI Omen and like pukes and is clearly in pain, then the next episode he has the advantage, before finally having a giant fire ball being implied to be his maximum power, at the end of 129. I definitely don't think what we saw at the end of 126 was Jiren's full-power. He doesn't actually say it is, either. He just says something along the lines of "Watch this!"

The narrator flat out states at the end of 126 that Jiren brought out his full power.

No, he doesn't. He says Jiren releases his hidden power, not necessarily that he was using his full-power. He had been releasing hidden-power throughout the entire tournament when he had become less suppressed at any given time. Oh, and the narrator also says that about Beerus.

[Zamasu55]

Freeza was already stronger than him in the ToP. He wins easier now.

Are you sure?

[zarmack]

Freeza was already stronger than him in the ToP. He wins easier now.

Are you sure?

Golden Freeza needed to team up with A17 & Ultimate Gohan just to deal with Base Toppo. Plus, base Toppo forced Goku into using SSBKKx? in the preliminaries, while Golden Freeza was shown to be only as strong as normal SSB Goku was at the start of the ToP (both Goku & Vegeta get all-around stronger as the ToP goes on, while Freeza's powerlevel never changes in that arc). So there's no way in hell that ToP arc Freeza was stronger than base Toppo.

[In Brightest Day]

Tapkar:


vs.

Burter:



The first to circle Earth 100 times is the winner.

[ZombieVito]

Freeza was already stronger than him in the ToP. He wins easier now.

Are you sure?

Yes.

SSB Vegeta was stronger or equal to base Toppo and both Freeza and SSB Goku were confirmed to be stronger than SSB Vegeta so they are stronger than Toppo by default.

[zarmack]

Freeza was already stronger than him in the ToP. He wins easier now.

Are you sure?

Yes.

SSB Vegeta was stronger or equal to base Toppo and both Freeza and SSB Goku were confirmed to be stronger than SSB Vegeta so they are stronger than Toppo by default.

No they weren't.

Preview guides are consistently contradicted by the actual series once its actually released. Like the one that said that Jiren would eliminate Goku before Freeza comes out-of hiding, or the one that said that Kale would get eliminated by Jiren in ep.101 (which never happened).

There is not a single line of dialogue nor feat in either the anime nor manga themselves that suggest Golden Freeza is stronger than normal SSB Vegeta & and Base Toppo at any point of the ToP, yet there are multiple of both that prove the eaxact opposite. Golden Freeza needed to team up with A17 & Ultimate Gohan (both of which are debatable stronger than Golden Freeza) just to deal with Base Toppo, while normal SSB Vegeta was fighting him off by himself semi-casually. Even Goku was forced to use SSBKK x an unknown amount in his fight with Base Toppo at the preliminaries, while normal SSB Goku was even with Golden Freeza at the start of the ToP arc. So there's no way that Golden Freeza was stronger. Way to many fans overwank him.

[ZombieVito]

No they weren't.

Preview guides are consistently contradicted by the actual series once its actually released. Like the one that said that Jiren would eliminate Goku before Freeza comes out-of hiding, or the one that said that Kale would get eliminated by Jiren in ep.101 (which never happened).

There is not a single line of dialogue nor feat in either the anime nor manga themselves that suggest Golden Freeza is stronger than normal SSB Vegeta & and Base Toppo at any point of the ToP, yet there are multiple of both that prove the eaxact opposite. Golden Freeza needed to team up with A17 & Ultimate Gohan (both of which are debatable stronger than Golden Freeza) just to deal with Base Toppo, while normal SSB Vegeta was fighting him off by himself semi-casually. Even Goku was forced to use SSBKK x an unknown amount in his fight with Base Toppo at the preliminaries, while normal SSB Goku was even with Golden Freeza at the start of the ToP arc. So there's no way that Golden Freeza was stronger. Way to many fans overwank him.

Your memory is failing you, Freeza never team up with 17 and Gohan against Toppo. Gohan was eliminated before Freeza even interacted with Toppo.

All Freeza did was just blast Toppo from the back while he was locked into a beam struggle with 17. Toppo then turn GoD immediately.

There's no debate. Gohan can't be stronger than Freeza since the former never surpassed SSB Goku and the latter is equal to him. 17 admitted inferiority to Freeza in E131.

Preview information can be used if it's not contradicted. Nothing in the ToP contradicts SSB Goku = Golden Freeza > SSB Vegeta.

[zarmack]

No they weren't.

Preview guides are consistently contradicted by the actual series once its actually released. Like the one that said that Jiren would eliminate Goku before Freeza comes out-of hiding, or the one that said that Kale would get eliminated by Jiren in ep.101 (which never happened).

There is not a single line of dialogue nor feat in either the anime nor manga themselves that suggest Golden Freeza is stronger than normal SSB Vegeta & and Base Toppo at any point of the ToP, yet there are multiple of both that prove the eaxact opposite. Golden Freeza needed to team up with A17 & Ultimate Gohan (both of which are debatable stronger than Golden Freeza) just to deal with Base Toppo, while normal SSB Vegeta was fighting him off by himself semi-casually. Even Goku was forced to use SSBKK x an unknown amount in his fight with Base Toppo at the preliminaries, while normal SSB Goku was even with Golden Freeza at the start of the ToP arc. So there's no way that Golden Freeza was stronger. Way to many fans overwank him.

Your memory is failing you, Freeza never team up with 17 and Gohan against Toppo. Gohan was eliminated before Freeza even interacted with Toppo.

All Freeza did was just blast Toppo from the back while he was locked into a beam struggle with 17. Toppo then turn GoD immediately.

There's no debate. Gohan can't be stronger than Freeza since the former never surpassed SSB Goku and the latter is equal to him. 17 admitted inferiority to Freeza in E131.

Preview information can be used if it's not contradicted. Nothing in the ToP contradicts SSB Goku = Golden Freeza > SSB Vegeta.

You are being willfully ignorant.

1. A17 never said that Freeza was stronger than him in ep.131. He just gave him a compliment ("man, those guys a tough"). Stronger characters give compliments like that to weaker characters in DB all the time. Jiren said that SSB Vegeta & SSB Goku were strong too, does that mean they are stronger than Jiren?

2. Golden Freeza does not a single feat in the ToP (either version) that suggest that he his stronger than SSB Vegeta, A17 nor even Ultimate Gohan. I challenge you to name one or even give a line of dialogue in the series itself (anime or manga) that says that his is.

3. Ultimate Gohan in the anime forced Goku into using SSBKK towards the end of their fight (while Freeza stopped at normal SSB Goku in their fight) and managed to put up a better fight against Koichiarator than both SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta together. Meanwhile in the manga, Ultimate Gohan was able to match SSJ1 Kefla, while Golden Freeza was getting slapped around by the much weaker Berzerk Kale.

So yes, everything in the series contradicts your views on Golden Freeza in the ToP compared to others.

[ZombieVito]

You are being willfully ignorant.

1. A17 never said that Freeza was stronger than him in ep.131. He just gave him a compliment ("man, those guys a tough"). Stronger characters give compliments like that to weaker characters in DB all the time. Jiren said that SSB Vegeta & SSB Goku were strong too, does that mean they are stronger than Jiren?

2. Golden Freeza does not a single feat in the ToP (either version) that suggest that he his stronger than SSB Vegeta, A17 nor even Ultimate Gohan. I challenge you to name one or even give a line of dialogue in the series itself (anime or manga) that says that his is.

3. Ultimate Gohan in the anime forced Goku into using SSBKK towards the end of their fight (while Freeza stopped at normal SSB Goku in their fight) and managed to put up a better fight against Koichiarator than both SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta together. Meanwhile in the manga, Ultimate Gohan was able to match SSJ1 Kefla, while Golden Freeza was getting slapped around by the much weaker Berzerk Kale.

So yes, everything in the series contradicts your views on Golden Freeza in the ToP compared to others.

I don't know why I even bother when you are straight up lying and ignoring stuff.

Gohan never forced Goku to use Kaioken. He begged him to do it.

If Gohan rivals KK Blue Goku then he would be stronger than SSB Vegeta and that makes absolutely no sense at all in E120. Gohan fought the U3 robots to conserve Goku and Vegeta's stamina because they are stronger than him.

Even in the manga Freeza flat out says he would beat Kale if he took her seriously. Gohan is also confirmed to be weaker than Goku and Freeza was confirmed to be on par with the latter.

So with all of that Gohan rivals Blue Goku (Confirmed by the narrator) but Freeza is confirmed to be equal to Blue Goku so he's stronger than Gohan.

17 also couldn't beat base Toppo (Same goes for Gohan) who is weaker than Goku who Freeza is equal to so Freeza > 17 & Gohan.

It's as easy as that.

[zarmack]

You are being willfully ignorant.

1. A17 never said that Freeza was stronger than him in ep.131. He just gave him a compliment ("man, those guys a tough"). Stronger characters give compliments like that to weaker characters in DB all the time. Jiren said that SSB Vegeta & SSB Goku were strong too, does that mean they are stronger than Jiren?

2. Golden Freeza does not a single feat in the ToP (either version) that suggest that he his stronger than SSB Vegeta, A17 nor even Ultimate Gohan. I challenge you to name one or even give a line of dialogue in the series itself (anime or manga) that says that his is.

3. Ultimate Gohan in the anime forced Goku into using SSBKK towards the end of their fight (while Freeza stopped at normal SSB Goku in their fight) and managed to put up a better fight against Koichiarator than both SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta together. Meanwhile in the manga, Ultimate Gohan was able to match SSJ1 Kefla, while Golden Freeza was getting slapped around by the much weaker Berzerk Kale.

So yes, everything in the series contradicts your views on Golden Freeza in the ToP compared to others.

I don't know why I even bother when you are straight up lying and ignoring stuff.

Gohan never forced Goku to use Kaioken. He begged him to do it.

If Gohan rivals KK Blue Goku then he would be stronger than SSB Vegeta and that makes absolutely no sense at all in E120. Gohan fought the U3 robots to conserve Goku and Vegeta's stamina because they are stronger than him.

Even in the manga Freeza flat out says he would beat Kale if he took her seriously. Gohan is also confirmed to be weaker than Goku and Freeza was confirmed to be on par with the latter.

So with all of that Gohan rivals Blue Goku (Confirmed by the narrator) but Freeza is confirmed to be equal to Blue Goku so he's stronger than Gohan.

17 also couldn't beat base Toppo (Same goes for Gohan) who is weaker than Goku who Freeza is equal to so Freeza > 17 & Gohan.

It's as easy as that.

1. Gohan only asked Goku to use his full power before he went SSB. He didn't ask Goku to go SSBKK, he was forced into it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45DTh6p-n84

2. "Gohan fought the U3 robots to conserve Goku and Vegeta's stamina because they are stronger than him."

This was never stated in the actual show, you are making things up.

3. "Even in the manga Freeza flat out says he would beat Kale if he took her seriously."

Where does he say this? Do you have a source? Even CSSB Goku was getting pushed by Kale so that sounds like BS to me.

4. "Gohan is also confirmed to be weaker than Goku and Freeza was confirmed to be on par with the latter."

Nowhere in the actual anime nor manga is this ever stated nor shown. You are just repeating yourself without evidence.

5. You still haven't posted any feats nor statements from the actual series that show that Golden Freeza is stronger than those people.

[ZombieVito]

1. Gohan only asked Goku to use his full power before he went SSB. He didn't ask Goku to go SSBKK, he was forced into it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45DTh6p-n84

2. "Gohan fought the U3 robots to conserve Goku and Vegeta's stamina because they are stronger than him."

This was never stated in the actual show, you are making things up.

3. "Even in the manga Freeza flat out says he would beat Kale if he took her seriously."

Where does he say this? Do you have a source? Even CSSB Goku was getting pushed by Kale so that sounds like BS to me.

4. "Gohan is also confirmed to be weaker than Goku and Freeza was confirmed to be on par with the latter."

Nowhere in the actual anime nor manga is this ever stated nor shown. You are just repeating yourself without evidence.

5. You still haven't posted any feats nor statements from the actual series that show that Golden Freeza is stronger than those people.

1.- Gohan told him to use his full power so he did. Gohan couldn't even beat Toppo who SSB Vegeta managed to stalemate. He can't be stronger than SSB Goku.

2.- He says it... In the episode...

3.- He says it... In the chapter...

4.- Kuririn says it... In the chapter...

5.- Freeza being stated to be an equal to SSB Goku makes him stronger than everyone else that is weaker than Goku (Vegeta, Toppo, 17 and Gohan).

Are you just trolling?

[zarmack]

1. Gohan only asked Goku to use his full power before he went SSB. He didn't ask Goku to go SSBKK, he was forced into it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45DTh6p-n84

2. "Gohan fought the U3 robots to conserve Goku and Vegeta's stamina because they are stronger than him."

This was never stated in the actual show, you are making things up.

3. "Even in the manga Freeza flat out says he would beat Kale if he took her seriously."

Where does he say this? Do you have a source? Even CSSB Goku was getting pushed by Kale so that sounds like BS to me.

4. "Gohan is also confirmed to be weaker than Goku and Freeza was confirmed to be on par with the latter."

Nowhere in the actual anime nor manga is this ever stated nor shown. You are just repeating yourself without evidence.

5. You still haven't posted any feats nor statements from the actual series that show that Golden Freeza is stronger than those people.

1.- Gohan told him to use his full power so he did. Gohan couldn't even beat Toppo who SSB Vegeta managed to stalemate. He can't be stronger than SSB Goku.

2.- He says it... In the episode...

3.- He says it... In the chapter...

4.- Kuririn says it... In the chapter...

5.- Freeza being stated to be an equal to SSB Goku makes him stronger than everyone else that is weaker than Goku (Vegeta, Toppo, 17 and Gohan).

Are you just trolling?

1. He told him to do that before going SSB. He didn't ask for SSBKK
2. Source please
3. Source please
4. Source please
5. If Freeza is equal to SSB Goku at the start of the ToP, then that makes both of them weaker than SSB Vegeta (who was shown and stated as equal to SSB Goku post ep.122, but definitely stronger than early ToP SSB Goku, with feats to back it up) and Base Toppo (who, once again, forced Goku into SSBKKx? yet struggled with SSB Vegeta. A fact that you keep ignoring).

[Berserker1921]

New Battles

1. SsjBE Vegeta vs Aniraza?

2. Ssj4 Goku (Shadow Dragon arc) vs Base Goku Black?

3. GoD Toppo vs Hit and Ssj Kefla (no hakai)?

4. G. Frieza (Broly) vs Ssj2 Kefla?

5. FP Broly vs U7 (No MUI, No Fusing, ToP)?

[PFM18]

Freeza was already stronger than him in the ToP. He wins easier now.

Are you sure?

Yes.

SSB Vegeta was stronger or equal to base Toppo and both Freeza and SSB Goku were confirmed to be stronger than SSB Vegeta so they are stronger than Toppo by default.

Uhh what? How were they confirmed to be stronger than SSB Vegeta?

New Battles

1. SsjBE Vegeta vs Aniraza?

2. Ssj4 Goku (Shadow Dragon arc) vs Base Goku Black?

3. GoD Toppo vs Hit and Ssj Kefla (no hakai)?

4. G. Frieza (Broly) vs Ssj2 Kefla?

5. FP Broly vs U7 (No MUI, No Fusing, ToP)?

Vegeta
Pass
Team U6
Freeza
Broly one shots everyone lol

[Zamasu55]

New Battles

1. SsjBE Vegeta vs Aniraza?

2. Ssj4 Goku (Shadow Dragon arc) vs Base Goku Black?

3. GoD Toppo vs Hit and Ssj Kefla (no hakai)?

4. G. Frieza (Broly) vs Ssj2 Kefla?

5. FP Broly vs U7 (No MUI, No Fusing, ToP)?

- Poor Aniraza gets demolished.
- If it's the very first Goku Black, Ssj4 Goku wins easily.
- Even without Hakai, none of them can really hurt him and will both go down in a few minutes like Freeza did.
- Okay, this is a mega-ultra stomp in Kefla's favour...
- No Ultra Instinct? No fusion? Then Broly destroys them all, no matter how many of them come at him.

[p-hyvo]

New Battles

1. SsjBE Vegeta vs Aniraza?

2. Ssj4 Goku (Shadow Dragon arc) vs Base Goku Black?

3. GoD Toppo vs Hit and Ssj Kefla (no hakai)?

4. G. Frieza (Broly) vs Ssj2 Kefla?

5. FP Broly vs U7 (No MUI, No Fusing, ToP)?

R1:Vegeta
R2: depends on how do you scale super, they can either win
R3:god toppo
R4:kefla bitchslaps him like toppo
R5:10v1 I can see u7win thanks to strategy, they don't beat him but at least stop him

[p-hyvo]

Let's see, I want to try yo submit to you some tricky versuses, just to test ya

R1: god toppo vs ssj broly (DBS, no FP)
R2: Ssj4 goku (start of shadow dragons arc) vs nova shenron
R3: Nova shenron vs ize shenron
R4: Base goku (s17 arc) vs ssj2 Vegeta (s17 arc) and majuub
R5: Gotenks (post rosat) vs Ssj gotenks (Pre ROSAT)
R6: base goku (baby saga) vs super vegetto z

Let's see how many of this do you get right~

[ZombieVito]

Uhh what? How were they confirmed to be stronger than SSB Vegeta?

Preview information for the arc.

New Battles

1. SsjBE Vegeta vs Aniraza?

2. Ssj4 Goku (Shadow Dragon arc) vs Base Goku Black?

3. GoD Toppo vs Hit and Ssj Kefla (no hakai)?

4. G. Frieza (Broly) vs Ssj2 Kefla?

5. FP Broly vs U7 (No MUI, No Fusing, ToP)?

Vegeta wins this easily. Even before getting his rage boost.
Goku Black.
Hit is an ant to them, he gets pushed aside in seconds. Kefla needs SS2 to compete with GoD Toppo.
Kefla powers down to Super Saiyan and one shots him.

[zarmack]

New Battles

1. SsjBE Vegeta vs Aniraza?

2. Ssj4 Goku (Shadow Dragon arc) vs Base Goku Black?

3. GoD Toppo vs Hit and Ssj Kefla (no hakai)?

4. G. Frieza (Broly) vs Ssj2 Kefla?

5. FP Broly vs U7 (No MUI, No Fusing, ToP)?

1. Vegeta one-shots
2. Black one shots
3. God Toppo wins
4. Kefla stomps
5. Broly wins