The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Dragon Ball Gus]

Universe Survival Gohan (Not counting Ultimate) vs Universe Survival Cabba

[PFM18]

I think there's a good chance SSJ Goku / Vegeta both surpassed ritual form Goku (vs Beerus on the ship), but their base forms getting that strong seems like a stretch. As for this hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto, I feel he'd still be far weaker than the ritual form Goku that faced off against Beerus. It's more than likely that Goku took SSJ3 Vegetto into consideration when he realized fusion would be futile. This form of SSJ3 Vegetto would be far stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu saga given how SSJ3 Goku had powered up a bit since then; it was strongly implied to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan.

SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta / Android 17 / Golden Frieza > Ultimate Gohan > Ritual Form Goku (current) >> SSJ3 Goku > SSJ2 Goku / Vegeta > SSJ Goku > / = Ritual Form Goku (vs Beerus on the ship) >> Base Vegeta (ToP) > Base Vegeta (final Zamasu battle) > / = SSJ3 Vegetto (hypothetical vs Beerus) > SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ Vegetto >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Goku and Vegeta are far beyond SSG from BoG but their base forms are not. I am not entirely sure what you are saying the rest of the post

I'm saying while their base forms didn't quite surpass the Ritual Form Goku that battled Beerus on the ship, their SSJs likely did.

Current SSJ > Ritual Form Goku (vs Beerus) > Base Goku / Vegeta (ToP).

I agrew with that. Why do you keep saying "ritual form" instead of SSG?

[supercat]

Goku and Vegeta are far beyond SSG from BoG but their base forms are not. I am not entirely sure what you are saying the rest of the post

I'm saying while their base forms didn't quite surpass the Ritual Form Goku that battled Beerus on the ship, their SSJs likely did.

Current SSJ > Ritual Form Goku (vs Beerus) > Base Goku / Vegeta (ToP).

I agrew with that. Why do you keep saying "ritual form" instead of SSG?

Just out of habit I suppose.

Glad we could agree on this though. I definitely think Goku kept the ritual power he absorbed during his battle against Beerus; it was never once stated that he had lost the power. Plus, there are several feats supporting the power up along with Base Saiyans > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) >> Buuhan .

[PFM18]

I'm saying while their base forms didn't quite surpass the Ritual Form Goku that battled Beerus on the ship, their SSJs likely did.

Current SSJ > Ritual Form Goku (vs Beerus) > Base Goku / Vegeta (ToP).

I agrew with that. Why do you keep saying "ritual form" instead of SSG?

Just out of habit I suppose.

Glad we could agree on this though. I definitely think Goku kept the ritual power he absorbed during his battle against Beerus; it was never once stated that he had lost the power. Plus, there are several feats supporting the power up along with Base Saiyans > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) >> Buuhan .

The series kind of shoves it in your face but people come up with strange conclusions for some reason. Theres really very little if any evidence of a retcon.

Universe Survival Gohan (Not counting Ultimate) vs Universe Survival Cabba

Cabba pretty comfortably. He was on par with Vegeta in equivalent forms during the U6 tourny and I dont think Gohan could pull off the same

[supercat]

I agrew with that. Why do you keep saying "ritual form" instead of SSG?

Just out of habit I suppose.

Glad we could agree on this though. I definitely think Goku kept the ritual power he absorbed during his battle against Beerus; it was never once stated that he had lost the power. Plus, there are several feats supporting the power up along with Base Saiyans > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) >> Buuhan .

The series kind of shoves it in your face but people come up with strange conclusions for some reason. Theres really very little if any evidence of a retcon.

I agree. There is almost nothing pointing towards a retcon. I think it's mainly due to the fact that a lot of people aren't keen with Frost and the Universe 6 Saiyans being stronger than Buu or SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga). Me personally, I find nothing wrong with that; in fact, I'd find it a bit odd if characters like Frost, Caulifla, and Cabba were weaker than Buuhan. Dragon Ball seems to introduce characters who far surpass previous limits and such, so it's quite natural for the universe 6 Saiyans, Frost, and Base Goku / Vegeta to be far stronger than anything the Buu saga had to display. If Goku and Vegeta didn't far surpass Buuhan, who by this point is a fodder (relatively speaking), what would have been the point of all their training and power ups?

[PFM18]

Just out of habit I suppose.

Glad we could agree on this though. I definitely think Goku kept the ritual power he absorbed during his battle against Beerus; it was never once stated that he had lost the power. Plus, there are several feats supporting the power up along with Base Saiyans > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) >> Buuhan .

The series kind of shoves it in your face but people come up with strange conclusions for some reason. Theres really very little if any evidence of a retcon.

I agree. There is almost nothing pointing towards a retcon. I think it's mainly due to the fact that a lot of people aren't keen with Frost and the Universe 6 Saiyans being stronger than Buu or SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga). Me personally, I find nothing wrong with that; in fact, I'd find it a bit odd if characters like Frost, Caulifla, and Cabba were weaker than Buuhan. Dragon Ball seems to introduce characters who far surpass previous limits and such, so it's quite natural for the universe 6 Saiyans, Frost, and Base Goku / Vegeta to be far stronger than anything the Buu saga had to display. If Goku and Vegeta didn't far surpass Buuhan, who by this point is a fodder (relatively speaking), what would have been the point of all their training and power ups?

Exactly. People have a problem rationalizing that Frost, Cabba etc dwarf the powers of relevant characters from DBZ. However, they have no problem with some random alien far surpassing King Piccolo several times over...or some cyborgs far surpassing the galactic tyrant from the previous arc. Why? Idk there appears to be some strange bias that people have that influences their perception of DBS when compared to the original series.

[supercat]

The series kind of shoves it in your face but people come up with strange conclusions for some reason. Theres really very little if any evidence of a retcon.

I agree. There is almost nothing pointing towards a retcon. I think it's mainly due to the fact that a lot of people aren't keen with Frost and the Universe 6 Saiyans being stronger than Buu or SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga). Me personally, I find nothing wrong with that; in fact, I'd find it a bit odd if characters like Frost, Caulifla, and Cabba were weaker than Buuhan. Dragon Ball seems to introduce characters who far surpass previous limits and such, so it's quite natural for the universe 6 Saiyans, Frost, and Base Goku / Vegeta to be far stronger than anything the Buu saga had to display. If Goku and Vegeta didn't far surpass Buuhan, who by this point is a fodder (relatively speaking), what would have been the point of all their training and power ups?

Exactly. People have a problem rationalizing that Frost, Cabba etc dwarf the powers of relevant characters from DBZ. However, they have no problem with some random alien far surpassing King Piccolo several times over...or some cyborgs far surpassing the galactic tyrant from the previous arc. Why? Idk there appears to be some strange bias that people have that influences their perception of DBS when compared to the original series.

Yeah, that's the thing I never understood. Even in GT, Rild in his weakest form was stated to be stronger than Buu, but was getting wrecked by Base / SSJ Goku; this strongly implied Base Goku >> Buu. This whole side characters surpassing Buu concept really doesn't appear to be new at all in my opinion.

The universe 6 Saiyans appear to be completely different from their universe 7 counterparts, so there's nothing really stopping them from starting off thousands of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta. That in no shape or form cheapens what Goku and Vegeta had to go through. These new opponents / characters being as weak as Buu would cheapen Goku and Vegeta's training since they'd be stuck facing fodders weaker than some old threat they destroyed years before.

[Analytic]

SS2 Kafla (ToP) vs. SSB Vegetto (FT arc)

Who is stronger? Statements seem to imply a suppressed Geran is stronger than Fused Zamas, and Kafla is superior to that Geran. But, Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Caulifla and Kale in equal forms, so...

[Zamasu55]

SS2 Kafla (ToP) vs. SSB Vegetto (FT arc)

Who is stronger? Statements seem to imply a suppressed Geran is stronger than Fused Zamas, and Kafla is superior to that Geran. But, Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Caulifla and Kale in equal forms, so...

Who said that Kefla is stronger than ep. 110 Jiren?

[Analytic]

SS2 Kafla (ToP) vs. SSB Vegetto (FT arc)

Who is stronger? Statements seem to imply a suppressed Geran is stronger than Fused Zamas, and Kafla is superior to that Geran. But, Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Caulifla and Kale in equal forms, so...

Who said that Kefla is stronger than ep. 110 Jiren?

Wasn't Kafla strong enough to kill UI Omen Goku, who was stronger than 1st UI Goku who in turn was stronger than suppressed Geran?

[PFM18]

SS2 Kafla (ToP) vs. SSB Vegetto (FT arc)

Who is stronger? Statements seem to imply a suppressed Geran is stronger than Fused Zamas, and Kafla is superior to that Geran. But, Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Caulifla and Kale in equal forms, so...

Honestly, it is a total toss-up. I lean slightly towards Vegetto but I wouldn't blame somebody who argued otherwise. The way each character was portrayed in power is a bit wonky

SS2 Kafla (ToP) vs. SSB Vegetto (FT arc)

Who is stronger? Statements seem to imply a suppressed Geran is stronger than Fused Zamas, and Kafla is superior to that Geran. But, Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Caulifla and Kale in equal forms, so...

Who said that Kefla is stronger than ep. 110 Jiren?

Wasn't Kafla strong enough to kill UI Omen Goku, who was stronger than 1st UI Goku who in turn was stronger than suppressed Geran?

The 1st Omen was not stronger than the Suppressed Jiren. They fought evenly until Jiren decided to discard Goku at the end of it.

[supercat]

SS2 Kafla (ToP) vs. SSB Vegetto (FT arc)

Who is stronger? Statements seem to imply a suppressed Geran is stronger than Fused Zamas, and Kafla is superior to that Geran. But, Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Caulifla and Kale in equal forms, so...

SSJ2 Kefla wins with minimal difficulty. It was strongly implied that SSJ2 Kefla was stronger than initial UI Goku, who by that point should be able to crush SSB Vegetto from the Zamasu battle.

Also, I don't think SSJ2 Kefla is quite on par with initial Jiren. I adhere to the following more or less.

Initial Jiren > SSJ2 Kefla > / = UI Goku > SSB Vegetto > Fused Zamasu > SSB Kaioken x20 > SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta (ToP) > / = Android 17 / Golden Frieza > Base Kefla > Ritual Form Goku (ToP)

[DestructoDisc]

Videl vs Ranfan
Future Trunks (Dragon Ball Super) vs Nuova Shenron
#18 (Universal survival saga) vs Perfect Cell
Piccolo (Universe survival saga) vs SSJ Cabba

[supercat]

Videl vs Ranfan
Future Trunks (Dragon Ball Super) vs Nuova Shenron
#18 (Universal survival saga) vs Perfect Cell
Piccolo (Universe survival saga) vs SSJ Cabba

This is a total mismatch Cell would be completely destroyed in a matter of seconds. Android 18 is comparable to Base Goku, who by that point should be stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu saga. She also defeated Giant Ribrianne, who is presumably a good deal stronger than she was when she tangled with Base Goku. Even if we assume Base Goku was holding back, Ribrianne shouldn't be that far off as Goku did appear to have had some trouble. So going off of that we can deduce that Android 18 is on the low end a tad weaker than Base Goku, and on the high end, a bit stronger than him.

Piccolo is only comparable to Base Goku (ToP) at best. He would likely get wrecked after a decent fight.

Base Goku (ToP) / Base Vegeta (ToP) > SSJ3 Vegeto (Buu saga) > / = Android 18 (after flashback) > Giant Ribrianne > Piccolo > Android 18 (before flashback) > Ribrianne > / = SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)

[Zamasu55]

Videl vs Ranfan
Future Trunks (Dragon Ball Super) vs Nuova Shenron
#18 (Universal survival saga) vs Perfect Cell
Piccolo (Universe survival saga) vs SSJ Cabba

This is a total mismatch Cell would be completely destroyed in a matter of seconds. Android 18 is comparable to Base Goku, who by that point should be stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu saga. She also defeated Giant Ribrianne, who is presumably a good deal stronger than she was when she tangled with Base Goku. Even if we assume Base Goku was holding back, Ribrianne shouldn't be that far off as Goku did appear to have had some trouble. So going off of that we can deduce that Android 18 is on the low end a tad weaker than Base Goku, and on the high end, a bit stronger than him.

So Android 18 is stronger than Vegetto now. After a 5 minute spar with Krillin. What a time to be alive.

[sunsetshimmer]

Videl vs Ranfan

Videl since Ranfan doesn't have any real feats other than hurting suppressed Nam. Videl actually broke Spopovich neck + she can fly and as a women is immune to flirt.

Future Trunks (Dragon Ball Super) vs Nuova Shenron

Nuova easily. He was late SSJ4 tier and was the fastest character after Gogeta SSJ4. I also doubt Trunks can survive sun's temperature. His ultimate was even able to kill Omega which makes it one of the most powerful techniques in DB (even post limit-break SSJ4's Dragon Fist didn't kill Omega).

#18 (Universal survival saga) vs Perfect Cell

Perfect Cell i'd say. #18 was said in RoF to be stronger than every non-saiyan, but Piccolo was even weaker than already pathetic weak Gohan in his green jumpsuit. I don't think she has improved THAT much since then, she doesn't train unless she has to. And even if she was stronger than Cell, he can still regenerate and has amazing skills.

[supercat]

Videl vs Ranfan
Future Trunks (Dragon Ball Super) vs Nuova Shenron
#18 (Universal survival saga) vs Perfect Cell
Piccolo (Universe survival saga) vs SSJ Cabba

This is a total mismatch Cell would be completely destroyed in a matter of seconds. Android 18 is comparable to Base Goku, who by that point should be stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu saga. She also defeated Giant Ribrianne, who is presumably a good deal stronger than she was when she tangled with Base Goku. Even if we assume Base Goku was holding back, Ribrianne shouldn't be that far off as Goku did appear to have had some trouble. So going off of that we can deduce that Android 18 is on the low end a tad weaker than Base Goku, and on the high end, a bit stronger than him.

So Android 18 is stronger than Vegetto now. After a 5 minute spar with Krillin. What a time to be alive.

We don't know what Android 18 has been up to over the years. Android 17 trained and reached SSB-tier, so there's nothing wrong with Android 18 getting a good deal stronger as well. While someone comparable Base Goku-tier likely towers over everything in Z, it doesn't appear to be that high of a benchmark in Super. Android 18 had a pretty relevant role in the ToP and she defeated a character that actually gave Base Goku a decent fight; not that much of a stretch to have her stronger than all of Z.

[DestructoDisc]

Videl vs Ranfan
Future Trunks (Dragon Ball Super) vs Nuova Shenron
#18 (Universal survival saga) vs Perfect Cell
Piccolo (Universe survival saga) vs SSJ Cabba

This is a total mismatch Cell would be completely destroyed in a matter of seconds. Android 18 is comparable to Base Goku, who by that point should be stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu saga. She also defeated Giant Ribrianne, who is presumably a good deal stronger than she was when she tangled with Base Goku. Even if we assume Base Goku was holding back, Ribrianne shouldn't be that far off as Goku did appear to have had some trouble. So going off of that we can deduce that Android 18 is on the low end a tad weaker than Base Goku, and on the high end, a bit stronger than him.

Piccolo is only comparable to Base Goku (ToP) at best. He would likely get wrecked after a decent fight.

Base Goku (ToP) / Base Vegeta (ToP) > SSJ3 Vegeto (Buu saga) > / = Android 18 (after flashback) > Giant Ribrianne > Piccolo > Android 18 (before flashback) > Ribrianne > / = SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)

Is 18 really that strong now? I didn't know that i'm so sorry.

[supercat]

Videl vs Ranfan
Future Trunks (Dragon Ball Super) vs Nuova Shenron
#18 (Universal survival saga) vs Perfect Cell
Piccolo (Universe survival saga) vs SSJ Cabba

This is a total mismatch Cell would be completely destroyed in a matter of seconds. Android 18 is comparable to Base Goku, who by that point should be stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu saga. She also defeated Giant Ribrianne, who is presumably a good deal stronger than she was when she tangled with Base Goku. Even if we assume Base Goku was holding back, Ribrianne shouldn't be that far off as Goku did appear to have had some trouble. So going off of that we can deduce that Android 18 is on the low end a tad weaker than Base Goku, and on the high end, a bit stronger than him.

Piccolo is only comparable to Base Goku (ToP) at best. He would likely get wrecked after a decent fight.

Base Goku (ToP) / Base Vegeta (ToP) > SSJ3 Vegeto (Buu saga) > / = Android 18 (after flashback) > Giant Ribrianne > Piccolo > Android 18 (before flashback) > Ribrianne > / = SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)

Is 18 really that strong now? I didn't know that i'm so sorry.

It's very strongly implied that she is; her fight against Ribrianne (and Giant Ribrianne) is what really supports this. Even if she isn't quite on par with Base Goku, she should still be able to wreck everyone from the Buu saga with ease.

[jeffbr92]

Base Kale vs Raditz

Raditz finger flicks.

Why?

Super doesn't care about our mathematical formulas, so I'm just gonna say that Kale seems to have little experience on battle and is only truly strong when she transforms. Raditz could take it in her base form.