The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Noah]

New match:

- Broly (after being trained by Whis/has acess to SSJG/Blue) vs. Goku & Vegeta (RoF arc)

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Except once he said that everyone knew they were screwed, and they were. The other models are irrelevant in this case. We knew 19 and 20 were screwed after they said that, and they were.

Still, this doesn't make them below Freeza. Yes, they were screwed against the Z Fighters, but unless you're making a point of 1st form Freeza > Androids, the lack of knowledge from Gero doesn't mean they are below Freeza.

Um where are you getting this? Frieza before his stamina drain could still very well fight back against pre rosat ssjs.

The ones from the Android Arc?!

Maybe. But this still would beam Piccolo could completely stomp namek ssj Goku which is never implied.

Er... If he just stomped a foe he belives to be stronger than Mecha Trunks, then SSJ Goku would be a joke for him.

Yes? And he could do far more than that if Vegeta just stood there and didn't defend himself.

And were's the proof he could do any of that? Trunks belives he can beat the Freeza/Cold duo down pretty quick, but says the Androids are monsters to him. Vegeta doesn't think he's fighting the wrong Androids, only that they were overstimated. Vegeta clobbered 19 all over the place. If Vegeta let Freeza punch him in the face like 19 did, i doubt he'd make him bleed.

That doesn't imply 19 being around Trunks level at all. 20 is stronger than 19 and 20 is much weaker than Piccolo who is weaker than Trunks after just a couple months of training and wasn't even stated to be noticeably stronger.

No, you've only shown statements that can be interpreted in different ways. The feats you showed have to take your opinion on strength as truth. For example you think 19 knocking back Vegeta a few feat is a good feat that puts him above Frieza, while I think it isn't a good feat that puts him below Frieza if anything.

The statements by themselves can be interpreted in different ways, but the feats back up the statements here.

All Tien said was "so this is what a ssj feels like up close". He just had no idea how a ssj felt or fought. Sick ssj Goku would most likely lose to both his namek self and Frieza. He just wouldn't last long enough to win.

Gohan and Piccolo instantly noticed something wrong with Goku's power when he started fighting. Tenshinhan did sense Goku three years ago, so why he's so astonished by a power considerably weaker than the one Goku showed three years ago?

All that's implied is they are weaker than what they were told. Nothing implies they were Trunks level.

Then why Vegeta doesn't suspect a thing? Trunks says the Androids are monster compared to him, Androids weak to a point Trunks can one shot them appear and Vegeta doesn't suspect a thing? How?

He was just faster than Vegeta thought he would be, and Piccolo flat out stated he didn't know if they got too strong or if the androids were weaker than they were told.

And Vegeta already thought he'd be > 19 based on his lack of faith on going against 20 after blowing 19's head off. If Piccolo (Or 20, for that matter) were weaker than Freeza, then Piccolo would have no doubts at all: They are weaker than they were told.

Yes, it is an opinion, but it is a likely opinion, not an unlikely one. If Piccolo was stronger than Frieza or any ssj at all, it almost definitely would of been stated.

He was lumped with SSJs by Kuririn, for that matter:
Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

We don't know how strong he got, he never once fought or had a power level reading.

Nail said if Piccolo was still one with Kami he'd be able to beat Freeza, and Guru stated the division split Kami's power by half:
Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5, P3.1
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”
Piccolo: “Are you saying that if I merged with God once again, my power would even surpass Freeza!?”
Nail: “Th-that’s right…I was overwhelmingly defeated by Freeza, but I should have a good comprehension of his abilities…[ ] So merge with me…! I’m also the only fighting-type Namekian on this planet…[ ] That’s right…Your power will become many times greater…”
Piccolo: “…You’re not lying, are you?”
Nail: “If you think so, you can just go get killed by Freeza…”

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P3.4-5
Context: the Great Elder reads Kuririn’s mind and learns of God and Piccolo.
Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth! If he had come back together as one, he might not have had to die…”

Wow your judgement seems to be really clouded. I already said based off evidence and statements any of these characters could be stronger than the others. What I'm saying is almost impossible and a completely head canon statement is that 19 or 20 could one shot Frieza. There is absolutely no evidence for this. It's like saying Tien could of oneshot Frieza. Technically nothing 100 disproves it, but most people don't believe it because it is completely unwarranted.
You seem to just want the characters to be a lot stronger than Frieza even though the manga itself completely contradicts this on multiple occasions.

Why would Goku be excited and afraid of enemies stronger than Frieza if he is already a "god" compared to Frieza? The only reason I can think of is he isn't as strong as you say. I mean based off what you are saying Krillin might as well asked if Goku was excited or afraid of fighting people stronger than saiyan saga Vegeta.... It makes no sense unless the person's power is still relevant.

Why would Vegeta be shocked of Piccolo surprassing him as a ssj if he was already close to or on ssj level? Sounds like Vegeta thought namekians couldn't surpass ssj, yet you are saying he could already casually one shot some ssj.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And the fact you say it's Frieza wanking to say Frieza doesn't get one shot by 19 or 20 is downright crazy, especially since neither 19 or 20 have definitive proof they could even beat 50% Frieza.
Also you say I'm wanking when you use and abuse statements from the manga that Toriyama didn't even want them to be taken that way. Toriyama almost definitely didn't intend for piccolo to be even above namek ssj Goku. It just doesn't make sense from a writing standpoint. We get a statement saying he is strong for not being a ssj, and we should take it how it is meant, he is getting close to ssj level, but still not there yet. And when he finally did surpass ssj level it was outright stated.

I think comparing 19/20 > Freeza with Tenshinhan > Freeza is baseless, if you ask me. 19/20 actually have evidence for being above Freeza, otherwise we wouldn't be debating this at all, while Tenshinhan has showed no feats or statements to imply he can defeat Freeza and the opposite is implied.

He's excited because he's facing a dangerous foe again. The last time Goku actually fought a tough battle was on Namek against Freeza, being pushed to his limits and even further on a planet about to explode. 19 was clobbered by a weakened Goku. Cell is potentially as much of a treat as Freeza was on Namek.
Kuririn using Vegeta as a measure stick to Cell wouldn't be good for some of reasons, if you ask me. Vegeta's fight is already water under the bridge, Goku had a tougher time facing Freeza than Vegeta, Mr Toriyama is always bringing Freeza again, considering even by the Boo Arc and Super he still being mentioned and was even brought back on Super.

Why would Vegeta care about Piccolo surpassing former SSJs? All Vegeta cares is about himself, he thinks he's the true and strongest Super Saiyan that should be unstoppable, not Goku or Trunks. Also, Piccolo wasn't exactly close to Vegeta. Sure, Piccolo is on the middle of the Pre Rosat SSJs and the Mecha Arc SSJs, but i don't think he's rivaling any of the Android SSJs. I think even Trunks would clobber him like Kaioken x3 Goku clobbered Vegeta.

How you know Mr Toriyama wanted the statements to be interpreted on a different way? Why put a statement saying Piccolo has power comparable to a Super Saiyan if he's actually supposed to imply Piccolo is weaker than Freeza? Mr Toriyama is a simple writter who wouldn't confuse the reader with statements being supposed to be interpreted in another way.

Who is the strongest that SSj3 Natz (Potara fusion of Nappa and Raditz) could beat?

I think a base Natz would be stronger than an hypothetical SSJ3 Nappa, who i'd have a bit stronger than Base Goku when he fought Freeza. I think Base Natz being on Android Arc Saiyans tier is enough. As a SSJ3, i'd have him on pair with Warming up Cell, though Cell would win thanks to Regeneration and SSJ3 strain. He'd stomp SSJG2 Vegeta, though.

Ignoring the filler of Base Vegito vs Buuhan.

Base Vegito runs the gauntlet:

- SSJ3 Goku
- Super Buu
- SSJ3 Gotenks
- Ultimate Gohan
- Buutenks
- Buuhan

I think he actually clears the gauntlet. I use a 2.5x multiplier for SSJs fusions, after all.

[dragon boss z]

Still, this doesn't make them below Freeza. Yes, they were screwed against the Z Fighters, but unless you're making a point of 1st form Freeza > Androids, the lack of knowledge from Gero doesn't mean they are below Freeza.

First form Frieza is not a namek saga top tier and is weaker than base Goku. Gero said he calculated how strong Goku could get in his base, the only reason his calculations were off were because of ssj, which is why they knew Gero had no chance. Final form Frieza and ssj Goku would be the only people who were out of Gero's calculations.

The ones from the Android Arc?!

Yes, if he was at full power and didn't underestimate his opponent a fight with him vs a andriod saga ssj would probably go like Vegeta vs 18. He might be able to anoy them a little, but then they beat the crap out of him.

Er... If he just stomped a foe he belives to be stronger than Mecha Trunks, then SSJ Goku would be a joke for him.

Except Piccolo flat out said they could of been weaker than they thought. He gave two options, not one. And Piccolo said he didn't know which option was the right one, however we do know since we later found out that they were the wrong androids. If Piccolo was right about the second option "we just got to strong" they would of been able to defeat at least future 17 and 18, which I don't think he could.

And were's the proof he could do any of that? Trunks belives he can beat the Freeza/Cold duo down pretty quick, but says the Androids are monsters to him. Vegeta doesn't think he's fighting the wrong Androids, only that they were overstimated. Vegeta clobbered 19 all over the place. If Vegeta let Freeza punch him in the face like 19 did, i doubt he'd make him bleed.

Trunks said he would beat Frieza quickly because he isn't merciful like Goku, not because he was much stronger. Trunks would of done the same thing to 19, he doesn't mess around with his opponents while Vegeta plays with his food.
And as for proof that Frieza could make Vegeta bleed if he just stood there and took it.

70% Frieza was able to knock ssj Goku back miles and make him bleed. 100% Frieza is 30% stronger than 70% Frieza.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

So for ssj Vegeta to just stand there and take a hit from 100% Frieza with absolutely no damage, he would have to be faaar more than 30% stronger than namek saga Goku, which there is no evidence of. I personally have ssj Vegeta at around 50% stronger than namek ssj Goku, and I think anything up to 2x is fine, but after that there is no evidence of Vegeta being that strong. If he was really multiple times ssj namke Goku level that seems like something that would be mentioned.

And 100% Frieza even seemed to blitz ssj Goku a few times

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]


matched ssj Goku's kamehameha which we know can multiply his power level and then smacked into him extremely hard. Goku is noticeably tired and hurt when he comes up.
[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

Exchanging blows with ssj Goku making each other bleed
[spoiler][/spoiler]

The statements by themselves can be interpreted in different ways, but the feats back up the statements here.

That's only true if 19 and 20 did things Frieza absolutely couldn't, which besides absorbing energy they didn't.

Gohan and Piccolo instantly noticed something wrong with Goku's power when he started fighting. Tenshinhan did sense Goku three years ago, so why he's so astonished by a power considerably weaker than the one Goku showed three years ago?

Tien was amazed at his power because it was "up close". And also it was a ssj "in combat". When the Z fighters aren't actually fighting their ki level is much lower than when they are attacking.
And Piccolo said not only was Goku's power much lower than usual he was also fighting sloppier than usual as well.

Then why Vegeta doesn't suspect a thing? Trunks says the Androids are monster compared to him, Androids weak to a point Trunks can one shot them appear and Vegeta doesn't suspect a thing? How?

Trunks said the real trouble with the androids was there were two of them and one on one they were a bit stronger than him. Vegeta said they weren't on the level they were said to be.
Not to mention base Vegeta knocked back 19 so hard that he left an imprint of his foot in his face. Tbh base Vegeta's hit on 19 was more impressive than 19's hit on ssj Vegeta.

And Vegeta already thought he'd be > 19 based on his lack of faith on going against 20 after blowing 19's head off. If Piccolo (Or 20, for that matter) were weaker than Freeza, then Piccolo would have no doubts at all: They are weaker than they were told.

Piccolo never once felt 100% Frieza's power, so this argument is moot. At best you could argue that proves they are above 50% Frieza, the strongest Piccolo ever felt him.

He was lumped with SSJs by Kuririn, for that matter:
Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

Ya that means he is storng for not being a ssj. It doesn't mean he is as strong as one. I would just say it proves he is closer to ssj level than base level. And if Frieza was on there team as a good guy Krillin would also say the same thing about his final form since it is also strong for not even being a ssj. And even if he was ssj level, that just means he strong enough to beat Frieza up, not stomp a guy who could one shot Frieza. So as I said Piccolo could be above Frieza, it's the Piccolo being able to stomp someone who could one shot Frieza is the problem.

Nail said if Piccolo was still one with Kami he'd be able to beat Freeza, and Guru stated the division split Kami's power by half:
Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5, P3.1
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”
Piccolo: “Are you saying that if I merged with God once again, my power would even surpass Freeza!?”
Nail: “Th-that’s right…I was overwhelmingly defeated by Freeza, but I should have a good comprehension of his abilities…[ ] So merge with me…! I’m also the only fighting-type Namekian on this planet…[ ] That’s right…Your power will become many times greater…”
Piccolo: “…You’re not lying, are you?”
Nail: “If you think so, you can just go get killed by Freeza…”

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P3.4-5
Context: the Great Elder reads Kuririn’s mind and learns of God and Piccolo.
Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth! If he had come back together as one, he might not have had to die…”

The fusion with Nail made him many times stronger. I doubt fusing with Kami would only make him two times stronger. That would imply Piccolo's power level was over 250,000 which makes no sense as it would make him even stronger than Vegeta and base Goku at that point. At max I would put Piccolo a bit above Nail.

I think comparing 19/20 > Freeza with Tenshinhan > Freeza is baseless, if you ask me. 19/20 actually have evidence for being above Freeza, otherwise we wouldn't be debating this at all, while Tenshinhan has showed no feats or statements to imply he can defeat Freeza and the opposite is implied.

Actually Tien holding town semi perfect Cell is a better feat than anything 19 or 20 have done. While the explanation of that is it is his trump card move that slowly kills himself, it is enough to where me using in him in this example is warranted. Someone could easily use that feat to try and justify him being stronger than Frieza, even though he might not of even been stronger than first form Frieza.

He's excited because he's facing a dangerous foe again. The last time Goku actually fought a tough battle was on Namek against Freeza, being pushed to his limits and even further on a planet about to explode. 19 was clobbered by a weakened Goku. Cell is potentially as much of a treat as Freeza was on Namek.

But Krillin didn't ask if he scared there people much stronger than them like Frieza was, he asked if he was scared of people stronger than Frieza.

Kuririn using Vegeta as a measure stick to Cell wouldn't be good for some of reasons, if you ask me. Vegeta's fight is already water under the bridge, Goku had a tougher time facing Freeza than Vegeta, Mr Toriyama is always bringing Freeza again, considering even by the Boo Arc and Super he still being mentioned and was even brought back on Super.

If anything this is just evidence of Frieza being relevant in power. Toriyama/Toei seem to hold Frieza's power in high regard now. They had Beerus completely shocked anyone could beat him, they had Beerus say base Goku was weaker than him, they thought 4 months was enough time for him to catch up, ect.

Why would Vegeta care about Piccolo surpassing former SSJs? All Vegeta cares is about himself, he thinks he's the true and strongest Super Saiyan that should be unstoppable, not Goku or Trunks. Also, Piccolo wasn't exactly close to Vegeta. Sure, Piccolo is on the middle of the Pre Rosat SSJs and the Mecha Arc SSJs, but i don't think he's rivaling any of the Android SSJs. I think even Trunks would clobber him like Kaioken x3 Goku clobbered Vegeta.

But there is still no evidence Trunks was any stronger than he was against Frieza.

I mean Kami even implied that Trunks was above Piccolo

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Kami mentioned how since Trunks who was strong enough to easily beat Frieza and his father and Vegeta who was stronger than him couldn't win against the androids then even Goku recovering might not help. He didn't mention how Piccolo lost or how Piccolo was stronger than Trunks who could beat Frieza and his father. If Piccolo was as strong as you say he definitely should of been mentioned in that statement.

How you know Mr Toriyama wanted the statements to be interpreted on a different way? Why put a statement saying Piccolo has power comparable to a Super Saiyan if he's actually supposed to imply Piccolo is weaker than Freeza? Mr Toriyama is a simple writter who wouldn't confuse the reader with statements being supposed to be interpreted in another way.

Because Frieza is also comparable to a ssj? I don't know why you don't want to accept that. If Krillin said the same about Frieza nobody would of batted an eye. And I didn't say the statement implied Piccolo was weaker than Frieza, I said all it implied is Piccolo is comparable to that realm of strength now. And yes Toriyama is a simple writer, and he wanted Piccolo to be comparable to a ssj, but he never once mentioned or hinted him being stronger than any ssj.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

First form Frieza is not a namek saga top tier and is weaker than base Goku. Gero said he calculated how strong Goku could get in his base, the only reason his calculations were off were because of ssj, which is why they knew Gero had no chance. Final form Frieza and ssj Goku would be the only people who were out of Gero's calculations.

Good point, fair enough.

Yes, if he was at full power and didn't underestimate his opponent a fight with him vs a andriod saga ssj would probably go like Vegeta vs 18. He might be able to anoy them a little, but then they beat the crap out of him.

Trunks to Freeza:

This Trunks was heavily implied to be weaker than Goku, and then Goku spend 3 years training his ass off. The best i could see Freeza doing is budging Goku's head and getting two shoted like Cell did against SSJ2 Gohan.

Except Piccolo flat out said they could of been weaker than they thought. He gave two options, not one. And Piccolo said he didn't know which option was the right one, however we do know since we later found out that they were the wrong androids. If Piccolo was right about the second option "we just got to strong" they would of been able to defeat at least future 17 and 18, which I don't think he could.

Weaker than he thought because for what he knew the Androids could've been even stronger than post training Goku, it's natural for Piccolo to be surprised by the fact he's manhandling one of the Androids when his role was just to a backup. Goku and Piccolo themselves weren't 100% confident on their way to the battlefield:
Chapter 337 (DBZ 143), P1.3-4, P2.1
Piccolo: “How about it, Son Goku…Frankly, do you think we can win against this enemy…”
Goku: “There’s no way I could know that without even seeing them. I’ll answer once I give it a try.”
Piccolo: “You’re pretty carefree…It’s not like I lack confidence…However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind…”

Trunks said he would beat Frieza quickly because he isn't merciful like Goku, not because he was much stronger. Trunks would of done the same thing to 19, he doesn't mess around with his opponents while Vegeta plays with his food.
And as for proof that Frieza could make Vegeta bleed if he just stood there and took it.

70% Frieza was able to knock ssj Goku back miles and make him bleed. 100% Frieza is 30% stronger than 70% Frieza.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

So for ssj Vegeta to just stand there and take a hit from 100% Frieza with absolutely no damage, he would have to be faaar more than 30% stronger than namek saga Goku, which there is no evidence of. I personally have ssj Vegeta at around 50% stronger than namek ssj Goku, and I think anything up to 2x is fine, but after that there is no evidence of Vegeta being that strong. If he was really multiple times ssj namke Goku level that seems like something that would be mentioned.

And 100% Frieza even seemed to blitz ssj Goku a few times

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]


matched ssj Goku's kamehameha which we know can multiply his power level and then smacked into him extremely hard. Goku is noticeably tired and hurt when he comes up.
[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

Exchanging blows with ssj Goku making each other bleed
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I think this actually is a point for me. What Freeza did was a Kiai, that is know for it's pushing properties.
On cosmetic damage, Goku had no blood on him aside from the bleeding mouth he already had. If 70% failed to make Namek Goku bleed, i'm very doubtful a ~40% boost would help him against a much, much stronger Super Saiyan.

And why are you describing the SSJ Goku vs Freeza fight? I know Freeza was fighting evenly with Goku and i never denied that, but that's the only Super Saiyan he could actually fight.

That's only true if 19 and 20 did things Frieza absolutely couldn't, which besides absorbing energy they didn't.

If Freeza can't draw blood from Namek Goku, then he definitely can't from Android Vegeta.

Tien was amazed at his power because it was "up close". And also it was a ssj "in combat". When the Z fighters aren't actually fighting their ki level is much lower than when they are attacking.
And Piccolo said not only was Goku's power much lower than usual he was also fighting sloppier than usual as well.

He actually comented on Goku before he started fighting too:

Trunks said the real trouble with the androids was there were two of them and one on one they were a bit stronger than him. Vegeta said they weren't on the level they were said to be.
Not to mention base Vegeta knocked back 19 so hard that he left an imprint of his foot in his face. Tbh base Vegeta's hit on 19 was more impressive than 19's hit on ssj Vegeta.

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”
He only said he could fight the Androids fairly well after he returned.

And Vegeta caught #19 off guard. Piccolo send Freeza flying over the ocean with a kick.

Piccolo never once felt 100% Frieza's power, so this argument is moot. At best you could argue that proves they are above 50% Frieza, the strongest Piccolo ever felt him.

He still felt SSJ Trunks, who's much stronger than Freeza.

Ya that means he is storng for not being a ssj. It doesn't mean he is as strong as one. I would just say it proves he is closer to ssj level than base level. And if Frieza was on there team as a good guy Krillin would also say the same thing about his final form since it is also strong for not even being a ssj. And even if he was ssj level, that just means he strong enough to beat Frieza up, not stomp a guy who could one shot Frieza. So as I said Piccolo could be above Frieza, it's the Piccolo being able to stomp someone who could one shot Frieza is the problem.

Yeah, the statement can mean both "Piccolo is not a Super Saiyan, but he's strong!" or "Piccolo's so strong, he looks like a Super Saiyan!". I lean towards the latter considering his confidence on facing the Androids and the coment on #20.

The fusion with Nail made him many times stronger. I doubt fusing with Kami would only make him two times stronger. That would imply Piccolo's power level was over 250,000 which makes no sense as it would make him even stronger than Vegeta and base Goku at that point. At max I would put Piccolo a bit above Nail.

Well, it's what's implied.

Actually Tien holding town semi perfect Cell is a better feat than anything 19 or 20 have done. While the explanation of that is it is his trump card move that slowly kills himself, it is enough to where me using in him in this example is warranted. Someone could easily use that feat to try and justify him being stronger than Frieza, even though he might not of even been stronger than first form Frieza.

Not really, because the Shin Kikoho is his trump card like you said. Tenshinhan thinking killing Freeza is a impressive feat implies he can't do this feat.

But Krillin didn't ask if he scared there people much stronger than them like Frieza was, he asked if he was scared of people stronger than Frieza.

Then Kuririn's statement wouldn't make any sense, because Goku has been training for three years to face foes stronger than Freeza. Asking him if he's ready to fight guys stronger than Freeza sounds sily.

But there is still no evidence Trunks was any stronger than he was against Frieza.

I mean Kami even implied that Trunks was above Piccolo

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Kami mentioned how since Trunks who was strong enough to easily beat Frieza and his father and Vegeta who was stronger than him couldn't win against the androids then even Goku recovering might not help. He didn't mention how Piccolo lost or how Piccolo was stronger than Trunks who could beat Frieza and his father. If Piccolo was as strong as you say he definitely should of been mentioned in that statement.

That's because Trunks is stronger than Freeza. Android Trunks > Piccolo > Mecha Trunks. Trunks went from below Yardrat Goku to lumped with Android Arc Vegeta, that's a hell of a increase even if we take Picclo

Because Frieza is also comparable to a ssj? I don't know why you don't want to accept that. If Krillin said the same about Frieza nobody would of batted an eye. And I didn't say the statement implied Piccolo was weaker than Frieza, I said all it implied is Piccolo is comparable to that realm of strength now. And yes Toriyama is a simple writer, and he wanted Piccolo to be comparable to a ssj, but he never once mentioned or hinted him being stronger than any ssj.

Freeza was only comparable to the first Super Saiyan of all. Also, Kuririn has never sensed Freeza at full power, only on suppressed states that are much weaker than his full power, as implied by Gohan:
Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P9.7
Yamcha: “So this guy called ‘Fr…Freeza’ has such terrible…ab…absurdly large ki…?”
Gohan: “This isn’t it…he gets much, much stronger…!”
Freeza would be on a tier of his own IMO.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Tenshinhan vs Gohan at jobbing.

[Dragon Ball Gus]

Arale vs Jiren

Can Arale defeat Jiren?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Arale vs Jiren

Can Arale defeat Jiren?

Jiren's power transcends toonforce.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Tenshinhan vs Gohan at jobbing.

Tenshinhan has been a jobber since Saiyan Arc age. He definitely stomps Gohan.

[dragon boss z]

Trunks to Freeza:

This Trunks was heavily implied to be weaker than Goku, and then Goku spend 3 years training his ass off. The best i could see Freeza doing is budging Goku's head and getting two shoted like Cell did against SSJ2 Gohan.

First off Trunks had no way of knowing Frieza's full power. He was sensing a suppressed Frieza who was confirmed to be able to get "much stronger". So of course he could beat a suppressed cocky Frieza in seconds when Trunks was even stronger and a better fighter than a full powered serious Frieza. And Trunks was implied to be around the strength of Namek Goku. When Gohan sensed him he said it felt the same. He probably meant both ssj ki, but if it was much higher than before I think that would of been mentioned. And this is also backed up by saying Trunks would win against Frieza because he wasn't going to take it easy on him like Goku did, not because Goku was weaker than him.

Weaker than he thought because for what he knew the Androids could've been even stronger than post training Goku, it's natural for Piccolo to be surprised by the fact he's manhandling one of the Androids when his role was just to a backup. Goku and Piccolo themselves weren't 100% confident on their way to the battlefield:
Chapter 337 (DBZ 143), P1.3-4, P2.1
Piccolo: “How about it, Son Goku…Frankly, do you think we can win against this enemy…”
Goku: “There’s no way I could know that without even seeing them. I’ll answer once I give it a try.”
Piccolo: “You’re pretty carefree…It’s not like I lack confidence…However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind…”

Ya this is evidence Piccolo could be a bit above Trunks as we first saw him, but as I said even though I don't think that is the case, I think it is a reasonable opinion. I just don't see 20 being that level or higher.
And Piccolo not lacking confidence doesn't mean he thinks he is actually stronger than ssj Trunks. The line actual implies Piccolo is more worried than Goku, but he does feel like he is strong enough where he can have some confidence.

I think this actually is a point for me. What Freeza did was a Kiai, that is know for it's pushing properties.
On cosmetic damage, Goku had no blood on him aside from the bleeding mouth he already had. If 70% failed to make Namek Goku bleed, i'm very doubtful a ~40% boost would help him against a much, much stronger Super Saiyan.

Goku's shirt and clothes were torn and he had blood on his body that wasn't seen before. You could argue it was always there under his clothes though. Either way Goku was shot into the water so that could be why he did get very damaged.
And the blood on Goku's mouth was from 50% Frieza's death beam hitting him. So for Frieza to not make Vegeta bleed he would have to be at least over 50% stronger than namek ssj Goku.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And why are you describing the SSJ Goku vs Freeza fight? I know Freeza was fighting evenly with Goku and i never denied that, but that's the only Super Saiyan he could actually fight.

Because ssj namek Goku is comparable in strength to ssj Trunks who has no concrete of a major power boost when coming back to help them against the androids.

If Freeza can't draw blood from Namek Goku, then he definitely can't from Android Vegeta.

He did though. Some of the scans I showed of 100% Frieza vs Goku had Goku spitting up blood.

He actually comented on Goku before he started fighting too:

That quote sounds like he never even felt Goku as a ssj before. He says "so this is Goku as a ssj", not this is how strong Goku is now as a ssj.

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”
He only said he could fight the Androids fairly well after he returned.

Trunks said he could put up a decent fight on his own, but when I looked at this scan I noticed an even better line. Tien said "we are talking about the man who beat Frieza and even he wasn't a match for the artificial humans" and Piccolo was standing right next to him in the same panel. That line really doesn't make sense if Piccolo was as strong or stronger than he was then. At the very least Tien doesn't think he is that strong.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

And this is also backed up by the kami scan I already posted.
So there is two scans pointing out that someone beating Frieza losing tot he androids makes them strong, and both have Piccolo in the same panel, yet neither talks about Piccolo losing.

And Vegeta caught #19 off guard. Piccolo send Freeza flying over the ocean with a kick.

The difference is that 19 had lasting damage done to his body. Frieza was just knocked back. Also Piccolo was given power by Gohan and Krillin, and as we know when a character is given power by other characters they get magically stronger than all of them put together.

He still felt SSJ Trunks, who's much stronger than Freeza.

But the thing is the Z warriors never show of their max power they do it in bursts and Trunks did it really quickly and was far back and they weren't expecting it to happen. The only time they were really watching was him against King Cold and he clearly wasn't going all out at that point. But as I said before, there is some evidence Piccolo could be above ssj Trunks. What I'm mainly arguing now that is highly unlikely is 20 being able to oneshot Frieza at full power.

Yeah, the statement can mean both "Piccolo is not a Super Saiyan, but he's strong!" or "Piccolo's so strong, he looks like a Super Saiyan!". I lean towards the latter considering his confidence on facing the Androids and the coment on #20.

I take it as the first one, but again it could be the second. That still isn't proof 20 could one shot Frieza.

Well, it's what's implied.

It's implied fusing with Nail is better than fusing with Kami? Nail said many times stronger, and if Piccolo was really over half the power of first form Frieza, becoming many times stronger should of been more than enough for second form Frieza.

Not really, because the Shin Kikoho is his trump card like you said. Tenshinhan thinking killing Freeza is a impressive feat implies he can't do this feat.

Ya, that's why I don't think he could beat Frieza either. But 20 doesn't have much going for him either besides his energy absorption.

Then Kuririn's statement wouldn't make any sense, because Goku has been training for three years to face foes stronger than Freeza. Asking him if he's ready to fight guys stronger than Freeza sounds sily.

But it isn't 1 opponent stronger than Frieza, it's 4. I would agree if Krillin said one guy stronger than Frieza, but he said a bunch, which should be enough to scare/excite Goku. And you are also going off the fact you are assuming Goku got a lot stronger from his training. The daizenshuu says after the namek saga characters started focusing more on transformations to get stronger than they didn't get big power boosts like before.

That's because Trunks is stronger than Freeza. Android Trunks > Piccolo > Mecha Trunks. Trunks went from below Yardrat Goku to lumped with Android Arc Vegeta, that's a hell of a increase even if we take Picclo

Then why didn't Kami say the androids were strong enough to beat Trunks who was strong enough to beat Frieza, and Vegeta and Piccolo are stronger than he was then? Kami didn't say Trunks was any stronger either. The way he said it made it sound like he Trunks was about the same strength as before, which was impressive because he could easily beat Frieza, and Vegeta who was even stronger than that lost as well.

Freeza was only comparable to the first Super Saiyan of all.

Frieza was comparable to namek ssj Goku who was comparable to ssj Trunks who was comparable to ssj Vegeta. Frieza is low ssj tier, but I would say he is about as comparable to early android ssj characters as Vegeta was to 18 when they first fought if 18. Or like how 19 fought sick Goku except instead of Goku slowing weakening and losing it would be Frieza getting stomped after the first few blows.

Also, Kuririn has never sensed Freeza at full power, only on suppressed states that are much weaker than his full power, as implied by Gohan:
Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P9.7
Yamcha: “So this guy called ‘Fr…Freeza’ has such terrible…ab…absurdly large ki…?”
Gohan: “This isn’t it…he gets much, much stronger…!”
Freeza would be on a tier of his own IMO.

What is this supposed to prove for your argument? All it proves is that most people didn't know the extent of Frieza's full power which only helps my argument more. The Frieza that is fodder to android saga ssj is the suppressed mecha Frieza, who's power was still so high Tien and Kami were still amazed Trunks beat him so easily in the android saga.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Kid Trunks (Pre-RoSAT) vs Cell Games Trunks

[dragon boss z]

Kid Trunks (Pre-RoSAT) vs Cell Games Trunks

any version of future trunks beats any version of kid trunks, possibly including end of z trunks since it looked like he didn't get any stronger. in super it was even implied current base future trunks is above current ssj kid trunks

[TheUltimateNinja]

Kid Trunks (Pre-RoSAT) vs Cell Games Trunks

any version of future trunks beats any version of kid trunks, possibly including end of z trunks since it looked like he didn't get any stronger. in super it was even implied current base future trunks is above current ssj kid trunks

However the Daizenshuu stated that Goten's power was on par with Gohan's.

[dragonball0900]

Kid Trunks (Pre-RoSAT) vs Cell Games Trunks

The funny thing is, that just to keep it simple, I have Kid Trunks the same strenght his future counterpart had in the Cell Games (with Goten having what his father had during the Cell Games at his 50%). They would have the same strenght, but Future Trunks has more experience and takes things more seriously so he should win.

in super it was even implied current base future trunks is above current ssj kid trunks

Future Trunks was way too powerful there, he pushed Goku to use his SSJ3 level, not to mention that SSJ2 Trunks was way much stronger than SSJ2 Goku, a Goku that grew more powerful since the Buu arc, BOG all the way to the Black arc. Super also portraits the kids as weaklings, which is not the case in Z.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Kid Trunks (Pre-RoSAT) vs Cell Games Trunks

Kid Trunks would stomp him. I heavily doubt Boo Arc Vegeta would struggle to dodge Cell Games Trunks' punches.


@dragon boss z, i'm responding you latter. Don't have time rn.

[dragon boss z]

However the Daizenshuu stated that Goten's power was on par with Gohan's.

He clearly wasn't though unless Gohan got really weak and got strong again from training for a few weeks.

Future Trunks was way too powerful there, he pushed Goku to use his SSJ3 level, not to mention that SSJ2 Trunks was way much stronger than SSJ2 Goku, a Goku that grew more powerful since the Buu arc, BOG all the way to the Black arc. Super also portraits the kids as weaklings, which is not the case in Z.

I agree, but it seems they want kid Trunks and Goten to be weak now.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

First off Trunks had no way of knowing Frieza's full power. He was sensing a suppressed Frieza who was confirmed to be able to get "much stronger". So of course he could beat a suppressed cocky Frieza in seconds when Trunks was even stronger and a better fighter than a full powered serious Frieza. And Trunks was implied to be around the strength of Namek Goku. When Gohan sensed him he said it felt the same. He probably meant both ssj ki, but if it was much higher than before I think that would of been mentioned. And this is also backed up by saying Trunks would win against Frieza because he wasn't going to take it easy on him like Goku did, not because Goku was weaker than him.

Gohan likely told Trunks stories before of how Goku beat Freeza before. The fact he's sensing a suppressed Freeza doesn't mean much as on the next panels he tells Freeza to power up because he's no pushover like Goku.

Goku's shirt and clothes were torn and he had blood on his body that wasn't seen before. You could argue it was always there under his clothes though. Either way Goku was shot into the water so that could be why he did get very damaged.
And the blood on Goku's mouth was from 50% Frieza's death beam hitting him. So for Frieza to not make Vegeta bleed he would have to be at least over 50% stronger than namek ssj Goku.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I'd say Freeza's beam was a amplified one, considering it would be silly from him to think uncharged beams would to any harm to a guy who was smacking him around.

Because ssj namek Goku is comparable in strength to ssj Trunks who has no concrete of a major power boost when coming back to help them against the androids.

Except Trunks was confident on killing a Freeza even stronger than the one Goku fought in the matter of seconds, and then he goes from slightly above a Gohan who wasn't much above <50% Future 17 to rivaling a Vegeta who's implied to be equals with Future 18/17.

He did though. Some of the scans I showed of 100% Frieza vs Goku had Goku spitting up blood.

He was bleeding from a beam that's very likely to be a charged one, though.

That quote sounds like he never even felt Goku as a ssj before. He says "so this is Goku as a ssj", not this is how strong Goku is now as a ssj.

Yeah, i knew you would say that. While one can argue Tenshinhan somehow forgot Goku's power, he still sensed Trunks' power, and he'd know something was wrong if Goku was weaker than Trunks.

Trunks said he could put up a decent fight on his own, but when I looked at this scan I noticed an even better line. Tien said "we are talking about the man who beat Frieza and even he wasn't a match for the artificial humans" and Piccolo was standing right next to him in the same panel. That line really doesn't make sense if Piccolo was as strong or stronger than he was then. At the very least Tien doesn't think he is that strong.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

And this is also backed up by the kami scan I already posted.
So there is two scans pointing out that someone beating Frieza losing tot he androids makes them strong, and both have Piccolo in the same panel, yet neither talks about Piccolo losing.

They use Freeza as a measure stick because that's the only feat Trunks is known for. Why bring up Piccolo beating #20 if he's weaker than the three SSJs? Piccolo also never had the chance to fight Freeza again after Namek, so i think only the memory of how much he and the others struggled against him would make Trunks one shoting him a considerable feat.

Out universe, i think Mr Toriyama was only showing the audience how the Cyborgs are superior to Freeza. Like when Vegeta compared Boo to Cell at the end of the Boo Arc.

The difference is that 19 had lasting damage done to his body. Frieza was just knocked back. Also Piccolo was given power by Gohan and Krillin, and as we know when a character is given power by other characters they get magically stronger than all of them put together.

The mark Vegeta left was weird though. #20 had no damage after Goku punched him on the face.

But the thing is the Z warriors never show of their max power they do it in bursts and Trunks did it really quickly and was far back and they weren't expecting it to happen. The only time they were really watching was him against King Cold and he clearly wasn't going all out at that point. But as I said before, there is some evidence Piccolo could be above ssj Trunks. What I'm mainly arguing now that is highly unlikely is 20 being able to oneshot Frieza at full power.

Actually, they were paying attention since the moment Trunks transformed. Considering he actually exerted himself, i think the Z Fighters should have a good notion of his power.

I take it as the first one, but again it could be the second. That still isn't proof 20 could one shot Frieza.

Not exactly proof, but adding the pieces together it's heavily implied at least Piccolo is considerably stronger than Trunks, who's in turn considerably stronger than Freeza.

It's implied fusing with Nail is better than fusing with Kami? Nail said many times stronger, and if Piccolo was really over half the power of first form Frieza, becoming many times stronger should of been more than enough for second form Frieza.

If fusing with Kami can only help Piccolo to reach 1st form Freeza level while fusing with Nail bumped Piccolo to 2nd form Freeza level, then yes. Nail gave Piccolo a much better boost than Kami. I belive this is the case because of how powerful Nail was, being a Warrior-Type Namekian, while on the other hand Kami was a weak, old Dragon-Type.

But it isn't 1 opponent stronger than Frieza, it's 4. I would agree if Krillin said one guy stronger than Frieza, but he said a bunch, which should be enough to scare/excite Goku. And you are also going off the fact you are assuming Goku got a lot stronger from his training. The daizenshuu says after the namek saga characters started focusing more on transformations to get stronger than they didn't get big power boosts like before.

He was talking only about Cell, though:
Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P4.5-6
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”
Goku: “…Both…”

He actually got much stronger. It's not because the gains are lower that they were minimal. On the first part of Z the gains were insane, with Goku going from 400ish to the millions in the matter of a year. The gains without transformations were still considerable by this point, with Vegeta and Trunks achieving astonishing power on the Rosat even without using the Grade 2 forms, and Goku blowing everyone out of the water with a year on the Rosat.

Then why didn't Kami say the androids were strong enough to beat Trunks who was strong enough to beat Frieza, and Vegeta and Piccolo are stronger than he was then? Kami didn't say Trunks was any stronger either. The way he said it made it sound like he Trunks was about the same strength as before, which was impressive because he could easily beat Frieza, and Vegeta who was even stronger than that lost as well.

Because that's the only thing Trunks was known for. Even though Trunks is a lot stronger, he has no feats aside from killing Freeza.

Frieza was comparable to namek ssj Goku who was comparable to ssj Trunks who was comparable to ssj Vegeta. Frieza is low ssj tier, but I would say he is about as comparable to early android ssj characters as Vegeta was to 18 when they first fought if 18. Or like how 19 fought sick Goku except instead of Goku slowing weakening and losing it would be Frieza getting stomped after the first few blows.

Freeza shouldn't be comparable to SSJ Vegeta at all. Trunks thinks he can kill Freeza in seconds. Trunks says he can barely escape from the Cyborgs even on a 1v1 fight, but after he returns to the present he claims he can fight them fairly well.

[dragon boss z]

Gohan likely told Trunks stories before of how Goku beat Freeza before. The fact he's sensing a suppressed Freeza doesn't mean much as on the next panels he tells Freeza to power up because he's no pushover like Goku.

Gohan probably told him he could power up, but he had no way of knowing exactly to what extent. Trunks just knew he would win because he wasn't a pushover. When it comes to fighting Frieza is at a big disadvantage for not being able to sense ki, which was probably one of the major reasons Trunks got the drop on him. Also if Trunks was so confident in taking them both at once power wise, why did he decide to set Frieza up for a surprise attack? Why not just casually walk up to him like he did to King Cold? Imo it was because Trunks knew he couldn't take them both together likely, but Cold by himslef wasn't much.

I'd say Freeza's beam was a amplified one, considering it would be silly from him to think uncharged beams would to any harm to a guy who was smacking him around.

They didn't seem amped to me, and Frieza thought they should all be able to hurt Goku.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Except Trunks was confident on killing a Freeza even stronger than the one Goku fought in the matter of seconds, and then he goes from slightly above a Gohan who wasn't much above <50% Future 17 to rivaling a Vegeta who's implied to be equals with Future 18/17.

I don't really think Frieza got much stronger and it was stated that ssj Vegeta was above Trunks, I don't think it was really that close since Vegeta actually put up a fight against 18 before getting tired and Trunks did practically nothing.

He was bleeding from a beam that's very likely to be a charged one, though.

But we see it on panel and he does all his death beams right away.

Yeah, i knew you would say that. While one can argue Tenshinhan somehow forgot Goku's power, he still sensed Trunks' power, and he'd know something was wrong if Goku was weaker than Trunks.

I mean Tien that entire fight just sounded like he had no idea what he was talking about. He just seemed like he was there to be a hype man.

They use Freeza as a measure stick because that's the only feat Trunks is known for. Why bring up Piccolo beating #20 if he's weaker than the three SSJs? Piccolo also never had the chance to fight Freeza again after Namek, so i think only the memory of how much he and the others struggled against him would make Trunks one shoting him a considerable feat.

Yes, I'm aware they use Frieza as a measuring stick, that's why if Piccolo was truly stronger than Frieza I think something like that would of been mentioned, but it wasn't. We have direct statements for everyone stronger than Frieza though. Trunks was mentioned to be stronger than Frieza multiple times even though we obviously knew that since he killed him, Vegeta was stated to be stronger than Trunks, the androids were stated to be stronger than Frieza, and even Cell was mentioned stronger than Frieza. Literally every single character stronger than Frieza was mentioned to be stronger than Frieza, except Piccolo, 19, and 20. 19 and 20 don't have power levels so I could understand them, but you would think someone would of mentioned if Piccoo was above Frieza or above ssj Trunks from before.

The mark Vegeta left was weird though. #20 had no damage after Goku punched him on the face.

I agree the mark was weird, but it happened. And Goku's attack didn't seem quite as strong as Vegeta's and 20 is stronger than 19 so that could explain it not happening to 20.

Actually, they were paying attention since the moment Trunks transformed. Considering he actually exerted himself, i think the Z Fighters should have a good notion of his power.

They knew it was well above their own. But none of them seemed to actually mention the level of power or how crazy it was. It all happened pretty fast and it's not like they have scouters to measure it. All they probably knew was it was above them by a lot.

Not exactly proof, but adding the pieces together it's heavily implied at least Piccolo is considerably stronger than Trunks, who's in turn considerably stronger than Freeza.

What's your definition of considerably stronger? Imo if Frieza was at 100% the difference between him and Trunks wouldn't of been much different than him and Goku on Namek. The difference is Trunks is a more ruthless fighter with a weapon. I mean imagine if ssj Goku had a sword and was bloodlusted on Namek. Pretty sure he would of cut him apart.

If fusing with Kami can only help Piccolo to reach 1st form Freeza level while fusing with Nail bumped Piccolo to 2nd form Freeza level, then yes. Nail gave Piccolo a much better boost than Kami. I belive this is the case because of how powerful Nail was, being a Warrior-Type Namekian, while on the other hand Kami was a weak, old Dragon-Type.

Maybe. Story wise I just don't think that is the case. I can't see Piccolo being stronger than the Goku that landed on Namek that beat the Ginyu force. Everytime characters do an old training Goku did they get stronger than when Goku did that training, but Goku has already done a knew training that makes him much stronger. So Piccolo was stronger than Goku post king Kai training, so over a power level of 8,000. but weaker than Goku's knew training which gave him a power level of 90,000.

He was talking only about Cell, though:
Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P4.5-6
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”
Goku: “…Both…”

Hmm that's not what the scan I'm looking at says, but I'll take your word that this is the correct translation. And the reason behind that would be because Cell is the only one with a power level they can sense, so this time they are actually feeling a ki bigger than Frieza.

He actually got much stronger. It's not because the gains are lower that they were minimal. On the first part of Z the gains were insane, with Goku going from 400ish to the millions in the matter of a year. The gains without transformations were still considerable by this point, with Vegeta and Trunks achieving astonishing power on the Rosat even without using the Grade 2 forms, and Goku blowing everyone out of the water with a year on the Rosat.

Pre rosat the only saiyan I think that got a lot stronger was Vegeta. Trunks only had a few months to get stronger and Goku was far beyond Vegeta but Vegeta caught up. Then post ROSAT saiyans are completely out of Frieza's league. Pre Rosat saiyans were also out of his league, but he was still strong enough to fight back. Against post rosat he wouldn't even be able to budge them.

Because that's the only thing Trunks was known for. Even though Trunks is a lot stronger, he has no feats aside from killing Freeza.

Ya but the characters acted like that meant it was impressive that he and Vegeta who was stronger than him lost. Nobody thought it was crazy that Piccolo lost. They were like "if even the guy who can beat Frieza can't win, how can we?" but that doesn't make sense if Piccolo was also stronger than Frieza and even the Trunks that beat Frieza. If Piccolo was stronger than Frieza at that point it would of made more sense to mention if Trunks and Piccolo, who are both stronger than Frieza can't win, how can we.

Freeza shouldn't be comparable to SSJ Vegeta at all. Trunks thinks he can kill Freeza in seconds. Trunks says he can barely escape from the Cyborgs even on a 1v1 fight, but after he returns to the present he claims he can fight them fairly well.

I think that is more of Trunks was trying to hype up the androids to let them know how much of a threat they were. When he came back the second time he didn't have to scare them into training. But I agree Frieza has no chance at all against ssj Vegeta, but I don't think Frieza could just grab and rip the arms off of Frieza like he did to 20 either, but that might be because Frieza is held together a little better. I think against ssj Vegeta it would go like Vegeta vs Dadoria or Vegeta vs first form Zarbon.

[Steven Bloodriver]

What If Confrontation After An Alternate Cell Games

Super Perfect Cell (With A Zenkai From Surviving The Father-Son Kamehameha) vs. Legendary Super Saiyan Broly (From Dragon Ball Z: Broly - Second Coming).

[dragonball0900]

What If Confrontation After An Alternate Cell Games

Super Perfect Cell (With A Zenkai From Surviving The Father-Son Kamehameha) vs. Legendary Super Saiyan Broly (From Dragon Ball Z: Broly - Second Coming).

I think Cell would win. A zenkai would boost his power greatly. LSSJ Broly was superior to SSJ2 Gohan, but not to the point where he is that much above him. I think LSSJ Broly is around SSJ2 Vegeta. Stronger than Super Perfect Cell, but weaker than a Super Perfect Cell with another zenkai boost.

[TheGodfather93]

Kid Trunks (Pre-RoSAT) vs Cell Games Trunks

Future Trunks wrecks with ease. He's far more experienced and battle-tested than Kid Trunks, and has much better feats. Nothing we've seen from Kid Trunks puts him on Future Trunks' Cell Games level.