The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Bullza]

Either Final Form Frieza is vastly stronger than the Base Saiyans or he's as strong as the Base Saiyans and Final Form Frost is vastly weaker than the Base Saiyans.

Which might explain why Piccolo could have beaten him.

[dragon boss z]

I don't think so. Base Goku should at least be equal to final form Frieza, while Gohan didn't even seem to be close.

Current Final Form Freeza is much stronger than base saiyans. Didn't you see how hilariously he outclassed frost, who is atleast equal to base saiyans? And how he treated Napapa, who is comparable to SS caulifla and was able to tank hits from Basil.
And the quotes from RoF:
"To surpass the powered up Freeza, Goku transformed into SSB"

and Goku telling him he couldn't beat him without transforming
and Freeza implying that he could take SS Goku without going golden
and Freeza somewhat keeping up with mystic gohan who is more powerful than SS2 Goku.
[/quote]

Now we now that Frieza can still go buff in his final form, so it's possible that in his buff form he was ssj Goku tier.

If that would be the case, they could've just had Gohan forced to go mystic like he later did.
Gohan's fight against obuni also implies his base and mystic are not as far apart like they were in buu arc (below namek Goku to above Super buu)

That seems to be with every fight now. In Super almost everyone seems to be close to the same tier. Even Roshi was able to push back Frost who should at least be Cell tier.

I have to, just like I forgot SS3 Gotenks vs base Vegeta. There's a thing called outlier, which happen in both high end and low end.

It's like the writers can't decide how strong they want them, lol. One moment he is so far beyond everyone with Krillin saying how his power is unamaginalbe in the RoF arc, and then in the ToP arc when Goku should be even stronger Krillin forced Goku to go ssj. This is why when I power scale Super I just ignore Goku and Vegeta all together. For Frost and Frieza I think it's best to go off of Piccolo. First form Frieza one shot Piccolo, while final form Frost almost lost to Piccolo, which would imply Frieza was always stronger than Frost. And as you pointed out if you ignore Caulifla's fight with Goku, final form Frieza would be above Caulifla, which makes sense. And final form Frieza being mystic Gohan tier also makes sense since in RoF it was implied he was above Buu, or at the very least around Buu tier in his final form.

[dragon boss z]

Either Final Form Frieza is vastly stronger than the Base Saiyans or he's as strong as the Base Saiyans and Final Form Frost is vastly weaker than the Base Saiyans.

Which might explain why Piccolo could have beaten him.

Ya, I don't even think the writers know at this point. Frieza was always supposed to be above Frost, but Toriyama wanted Goku to go ssj against Frost probably for a throw back so they had to do it. This made sense in the manga version since ssj was nowhere near god level, but it threw the anime powerscaling out of whack since base Goku was supposed to be above ssj3 level now and ssj form was supposed to be SSG level, which now seems to be thrown out since Goku can go SSG in the anime again and it's confirmed to be better than ssj.
Though in episode 107 it seemed like it was implied base Vegeta could beat Frost.

[Noah]

New match:

- Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black (final appearance) vs. current Golden Freeza

[Zamasu55]

New match:

- Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black (final appearance) vs. current Golden Freeza

It depends on how much Goku's gotten stronger since the Future Trunks arc, since Freeza's as strong as him.

My opinion: Goku Black wins. Better abilities and can get stronger the more he fights.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Jiren vs SSJB Vegeto (no time limit)

[ZombieVito]

New match:

- Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black (final appearance) vs. current Golden Freeza

I have them as equals.

I would give this to Goku Black though. He can always do his cloning attack and demolish Freeza easily.

New fights:

Tenshinhan [ToP] vs King Cold.
Roshi [ToP] vs Freeza [Namek].
Kuririn [Top] vs Super Saiyan Goku [Namek].
18 [ToP] vs Perfect Cell.
Piccolo [ToP] vs Super Saiyan 3 Goku [No stamina issues].
17 [ToP] vs Super Saiyan God Goku.

[dragon boss z]

Tenshinhan [ToP] vs King Cold.
Roshi [ToP] vs Freeza [Namek].
Kuririn [Top] vs Super Saiyan Goku [Namek].
18 [ToP] vs Perfect Cell.
Piccolo [ToP] vs Super Saiyan 3 Goku [No stamina issues].
17 [ToP] vs Super Saiyan God Goku.

The ToP fighters lose every round, pretty much in a stomp for all of them.

[Berserker1921]

Jiren vs SSJB Vegeto (no time limit)

To be honest after seeing this weeks episode. I'd hate to say it but Jiren's got this. He is stronger then a God of destruction. And let's say for argument's sake this god is stronger then Beerus. I personally have Vegito at or slightly above Beerus. So....

High-Ball
Jiren>Belmond>Beerus>/<Vegito Blue>Merged Zamasu

Low-Ball

Beerus>/<Vegito Blue>Jiren>Belmond

Honestly I think Jiren has at least 6/10 out of 10 times winning. Unless Vegito Blue suddenly masters no thinking movement.

[Berserker1921]

New match:

- Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black (final appearance) vs. current Golden Freeza

Goku Black wins. He is too op. Become significantly stronger after every encounter. Also has ton of hax powers. Like cloning, mastering a move after only seeing it a couple time, and energy sword. While I feel Frieza is more durable. Especially being dead and all. He puts up a good fight. But black will eventually kill him.

[DSB]

Jiren vs Merged Zamasu

Also, how would Zamasu react to jiren having this kind of power?

[Zamasu55]

Jiren vs SSJB Vegeto (no time limit)

Jiren one-shots.

Jiren vs Merged Zamasu

Jiren one-shots.

[LowRyder2005]

I'm not sure if I'm on board with the idea the Jiren we've seen so far does automatically one shot anyone of the two FT arc's top dogs.

Jiren vs Merged Zamasu

Also, how would Zamasu react to jiren having this kind of power?

Zamas might outlast Jiren if immortal, if not immortal Jiren already beats him in the strength department per Shin's own statement. Reaction-wise, Zamas would probably go "ningen with power surpassing a God, rrraahwgh".

Jiren vs SSJB Vegeto (no time limit)

We only know Jiren is above Zamas: a serious Vegito is above Zamas himself and honestly thinks he can vaporize him in one fell swoop with a proper Final Kamehameha. Could go either way, honestly, unless it's also clarified that this current Goku is definitely above the Vegito we've seen in the Future Trunks arc.

Goku Black wins. He is too op. Become significantly stronger after every encounter. Also has ton of hax powers. Like cloning, mastering a move after only seeing it a couple time, and energy sword. While I feel Frieza is more durable. Especially being dead and all. He puts up a good fight. But black will eventually kill him.

Agreed on the outcome, but the gap between Scythe!Black and Goku/Vegeta is implied to be substantial, while the two barely made gains from the FT Arc to today; Black would probably win even without using particular powers.

Jiren>Belmond>Beerus>/<Vegito Blue>Merged Zamasu

Jiren isn't necessarily stronger than Belmond; he is, however, stronger than Beerus and Quitela.

Tenshinhan [ToP] vs King Cold.
Roshi [ToP] vs Freeza [Namek].
Kuririn [Top] vs Super Saiyan Goku [Namek].
18 [ToP] vs Perfect Cell.
Piccolo [ToP] vs Super Saiyan 3 Goku [No stamina issues].
17 [ToP] vs Super Saiyan God Goku.

Like dragon boss said, they look a little like mismatches to me, also. I do think #17 could/should be close or even above SSG Goku however.
Talking about possible equals in the TOP, in my list I have:

- Base Goku/ Base Vegeta and #17 from the Android Arc.
- Base Gohan and base Goku from the Buu arc.
- Buff Roshi and Captain Ginyu.
- Ultimate Gohan around Super Saiyan God Goku from BOG.
- #17 around Gohan-Buu (yeah, I don't think the gap between the high tiers from the Buu arc and God is that big nowadays).
- Krillin/ Tien and Freeza fight base Goku.
- Piccolo exactly at a half-way point between Perfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell.

Some other benchmarks are:
- Base Caulifla around base Vegeta in the Buu arc.
- Frost slightly stronger than SS2 Kid Gohan (unless he became much stronger, I'm considering the possibility of bumping him to Fat Buu levels).

[Zamasu55]

I'm not sure if I'm on board with the idea the Jiren we've seen so far does automatically one shot anyone of the two FT arc's top dogs.

SsjB KKx20 Goku was no match for a highly suppressed Jiren. A stronger version than the one who somehow put up a fight with Merged Zamasu, whose Holy Wrath was countered by a normal Ssj Blue.
Plus, Goku never used more than KKx2 against him.

And more importantly, Jiren's stated to be stronger than Beerus, and neither Zamasu nor Vegito Blue stand a chance, in the anime of course, because manga Vegito is slightly stronger than him.
And Merged Zamasu isn't even immortal anymore, so he'd last 10 secs.

On the other hand, Infinite Zamasu is probably above Jiren, I mean the only person who can beat him is the King of All.

[LowRyder2005]

I'm not sure if I'm on board with the idea the Jiren we've seen so far does automatically one shot anyone of the two FT arc's top dogs.

SsjB KKx20 Goku was no match for a highly suppressed Jiren. A stronger version than the one who somehow put up a fight with Merged Zamasu, whose Holy Wrath was countered by a normal Ssj Blue.
Plus, Goku never used more than KKx2 against him.

And more importantly, Jiren's stated to be stronger than Beerus, and neither Zamasu nor Vegito Blue stand a chance, in the anime of course, because manga Vegito is slightly stronger than him.
And Merged Zamasu isn't even immortal anymore, so he'd last 10 secs.

On the other hand, Infinite Zamasu is probably above Jiren, I mean the only person who can beat him is the King of All.

I only see a lot of assumptions here: Jiren being "highly suppressed" when he could be using a considerable amount of power (or more than half); Goku using Kaioken * 2 against Zamas just because he screams Kaioken and not Kaioken * 20, especially considering that in the current episode they even seem to have forsaken the old Kaioken * 10 artwork that mixed Goku's blue and red auras.

Same goes for Vegito being possibly stronger than Beerus automatically not applying to the anime, or giving more weight to the arm-wrestling feat over Shin's words; as of late I really think the anime and manga in the end tend to compromise with each other, with the anime re-adapting the concepts introduced by the manga.

[Zamasu55]

I'm not sure if I'm on board with the idea the Jiren we've seen so far does automatically one shot anyone of the two FT arc's top dogs.

SsjB KKx20 Goku was no match for a highly suppressed Jiren. A stronger version than the one who somehow put up a fight with Merged Zamasu, whose Holy Wrath was countered by a normal Ssj Blue.
Plus, Goku never used more than KKx2 against him.

And more importantly, Jiren's stated to be stronger than Beerus, and neither Zamasu nor Vegito Blue stand a chance, in the anime of course, because manga Vegito is slightly stronger than him.
And Merged Zamasu isn't even immortal anymore, so he'd last 10 secs.

On the other hand, Infinite Zamasu is probably above Jiren, I mean the only person who can beat him is the King of All.

I only see a lot of assumptions here: Jiren being "highly suppressed" when he could be using a considerable amount of power (or more than half); Goku using Kaioken * 2 against Zamas just because he screams Kaioken and not Kaioken * 20, especially considering that in the current episode they even seem to have forsaken the old Kaioken * 10 artwork that mixed Goku's blue and red auras.

Same goes for Vegito being possibly stronger than Beerus automatically not applying to the anime, or giving more weight to the arm-wrestling feat over Shin's words; as of late I really think the anime and manga in the end tend to compromise with each other, with the anime re-adapting the concepts introduced by the manga.

If there is one thing DB Super made much better than Z or the movies, is that you don't get confused when it comes to transformations and stuff like that.
For example, when Goku uses Ssj2, you can clearly note it, thanks to the lightinings, while in the movies for example you can't tell if Goku was a Ssj or a Ssj2 against Janemba/Hirudegarn.
The same goes for Kaiohken. He used KKx10 only against Hit, Toppo and Jiren. Not against Zamasu and Bergamo.

Manga and Anime are two different things. Hit is roughy Ssj God tier in the manga, in the anime he's probably Goku Black tier. And so on.

Anime Vegito couldn't defeat Zamasu, Beerus, as he said, could have done that if he went to the future.

[LowRyder2005]

SsjB KKx20 Goku was no match for a highly suppressed Jiren. A stronger version than the one who somehow put up a fight with Merged Zamasu, whose Holy Wrath was countered by a normal Ssj Blue.
Plus, Goku never used more than KKx2 against him.

And more importantly, Jiren's stated to be stronger than Beerus, and neither Zamasu nor Vegito Blue stand a chance, in the anime of course, because manga Vegito is slightly stronger than him.
And Merged Zamasu isn't even immortal anymore, so he'd last 10 secs.

On the other hand, Infinite Zamasu is probably above Jiren, I mean the only person who can beat him is the King of All.

I only see a lot of assumptions here: Jiren being "highly suppressed" when he could be using a considerable amount of power (or more than half); Goku using Kaioken * 2 against Zamas just because he screams Kaioken and not Kaioken * 20, especially considering that in the current episode they even seem to have forsaken the old Kaioken * 10 artwork that mixed Goku's blue and red auras.

Same goes for Vegito being possibly stronger than Beerus automatically not applying to the anime, or giving more weight to the arm-wrestling feat over Shin's words; as of late I really think the anime and manga in the end tend to compromise with each other, with the anime re-adapting the concepts introduced by the manga.

If there is one thing DB Super made much better than Z or the movies, is that you don't get confused when it comes to transformations and stuff like that.
For example, when Goku uses Ssj2, you can clearly note it, thanks to the lightinings, while in the movies for example you can't tell if Goku was a Ssj or a Ssj2 against Janemba/Hirudegarn.
The same goes for Kaiohken. He used KKx10 only against Hit, Toppo and Jiren. Not against Zamasu and Bergamo.

Manga and Anime are two different things. Hit is roughy Ssj God tier in the manga, in the anime he's probably Goku Black tier. And so on.

Anime Vegito couldn't defeat Zamasu, Beerus, as he said, could have done that if he went to the future.

Hit's full power in the manga is above Super Saiyan God's; he can freeze God in time, which is established to work only on weaker opponents, and at the end of the fight Goku implies they could have a good fight (this while he's still in Blue form) if Hit wasn't restrained by the tournament's rules. In the anime he's about even with Super Saiyan Blue Goku in general, without his time-related powers. He could easily be in the same ballpark of Blue strength-wise; I'm fairly confident you'll probably see it anyway the moment the current arc is adapted. What's different are at most the way his abilities function; in the anime he keeps improving his Time-Skip to an incredible extent, while he can't in the manga.

Anime Vegito at least kept on believing he would defeat Merged Zamas the moment he went all-out; while they were evenly matched in general, in the manga it looks like Zamas just didn't have access to anime-exclusive forms, which were all above his regular state.

As for the forms being clear and separate, I think it's the exact opposite. As a matter of fact the very last episode already portrayed Blue + Kaioken * 20 Goku as visually identical to Blue + Kaioken * 2. Especially after the last episode would one easily claim that Goku had used a Kaioken * 20 to momentarily stun Zamas (who also could have been more or less serious, by the way). And Beerus doesn't really know what Merged Zamas was, nor does he know his actual power. Everything is basically up to debate, like I said in the post before this one.

[SuperDragoon]

New match:

- Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black (final appearance) vs. current Golden Freeza

Golden Freeza stomps. Much more powerful.

Jiren vs SSJB Vegeto (no time limit)

Jiren wins... barely. I have SSGSS Vegetto equal to UI Goku as of now and I have Jiren slightly superior to him.

New fights:

Tenshinhan [ToP] vs King Cold.
Roshi [ToP] vs Freeza [Namek].
Kuririn [Top] vs Super Saiyan Goku [Namek].
18 [ToP] vs Perfect Cell.
Piccolo [ToP] vs Super Saiyan 3 Goku [No stamina issues].
17 [ToP] vs Super Saiyan God Goku.

All the ToP characters stomp.

Jiren vs Merged Zamasu

Also, how would Zamasu react to jiren having this kind of power?

Jiren wins unless Zamasu has immortality. If he does he could outleast Jiren. Zamasu would be enraged at Jiren, a mortal, having power above gods, and attack him.

[apex_pretador]

New match:

- Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black (final appearance) vs. current Golden Freeza

They are equals at worst and goku black is slightly stronger at best.

With that said, Goku black is a sadistic bastard who likes to torture and impale his opponents and likes to get hurt as well. On the other hand, Freeza is a sadistic bastard who likes to kill and dodge.
I believe Goku Black would find hard to even tag Freeza, considering how good he has become at evading attacks. On the other hand Freeza could always fire homing death beams right through him.

Tenshinhan [ToP] vs King Cold.
Roshi [ToP] vs Freeza [Namek].
Kuririn [Top] vs Super Saiyan Goku [Namek].
18 [ToP] vs Perfect Cell.
Piccolo [ToP] vs Super Saiyan 3 Goku [No stamina issues].
17 [ToP] vs Super Saiyan God Goku.

The ToP fighters lose every round, pretty much in a stomp for all of them.

Agreed for all.

[SuperDragoon]

New Match:

Spirit Bomb (pushed by Kaioken x20 SSB Goku) vs. Beerus