Saiyan Home Planet and Origins ?

[Monkey D Goku]

Okay so we all know that the Sayians took over the Tuffles Planet and waged a war with them, the Sayians eventually won with the help of the moon.

Now new information has been released that the the original inhabitants of Planet Vegeta was the Tuffles and that the first original Sayians actually came in a space ship and landed on the Tuffle Planet. A theory is that the actual Saiyan Home world was destroyed by the original Super Saiyan that Vegeta mentions when he first see's Goku beat the Ginyu Force with no effort.

My question is how did the Sayians get a spaceship and operate it ?

The way King Kai describes the Sayians in the anime as a primitive species that live in rocks wearing rags. They eventually adapt and learn to use the Tuffle technology. I doubt they would have been able to build a spaceship if they lived in caves.

Maybe the band of sayians that escaped the Saiyan Home world were the last survivors and were sent by another third party to survive. More importantly since the Sayians had access to a spaceship and were able to use tuffle technology could they have been a race similar to our own before they left the planet and came to Tuffle Planet.

Anyway I'm rambling on so here is my Theory :

The original Sayians left from their original Home Planet because the original Super Saiyan destroyed it the one that Vegeta mentions. The last survivors of the race either were saved by a third party or managed to save a space ship and drift in space till they got to Planet Tuffle.

How did the Sayians that were supposedly primitive get a space ship and use it ?

Could the Tuffles have genetically engineered the Sayians on another Planet and once it went wrong and The original super Saiyan destroyed the planet, a few sayians were smart enough to hijack a space ship and go where ever it was programmed to go ?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Um...

1.) King Vegeta wasn't on that spaceship. The Saiyans landed on Plant somewhere around AGE 550 if I remember my timeline without double checking, and the war with the Tsufruians wasn't until AGE 720-730. King Vegeta is not 180 years old when he takes his throne, Saiyans have the same lifespans as Earthlings, just a much longer youth.

2.) Assuming you don't subscribe to the Episode of Bardock depiction, the other unknown original Super Saiyan didn't blow himself up along with a planet, that's a dub only line.

3.) The GT Perfect Files suggest that the Saiyan homeworld, planet Saiya, is still out there somewhere.

[Monkey D Goku]

Um...

1.) King Vegeta wasn't on that spaceship. The Saiyans landed on Plant somewhere around AGE 550 if I remember my timeline without double checking, and the war with the Tsufruians wasn't until AGE 720-730. King Vegeta is not 180 years old when he takes his throne, Saiyans have the same lifespans as Earthlings, just a much longer youth.

2.) Assuming you don't subscribe to the Episode of Bardock depiction, the other unknown original Super Saiyan didn't blow himself up along with a planet, that's a dub only line.

3.) The GT Perfect Files suggest that the Saiyan homeworld, planet Saiya, is still out there somewhere.

If the Saiya planet is still out there doesn't that possibly mean other sayians could be living on it too.

Oh yeah I kinda put in my own What if theories along with the information. Anyways I see what your saying. It still doesn't explain how the Sayians were able to even use a spaceship.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

If the Saiya planet is still out there doesn't that possibly mean other sayians could be living on it too.

Yes, its a possibility. Though we don't know when "our" Saiyans left that planet or where they actually came from before landing on Plant. Assuming any Saiyans from the original homeworld survive into modern times and didn't face some sort of destruction/genocide, the Saiyans we know from planet Vegeta and the ones from planet Saiya could be very different beings.

Oh yeah I kinda put in my own What if theories along with the information. Anyways I see what your saying. It still doesn't explain how the Sayians were able to even use a spaceship.

Not even going to begin to try for an official explanation for that that attempts to combine all the known Saiyan history from the different sources. Stuff doesn't make sense when you do that...

Toriyama said they were pirates in the distant past, bouncing from planet to planet to acquire wealth and power. Then the anime somehow has them they land on Plant like in Toriyama's notes and doodles, but they become dumb cavemen. Then in a century or two, they rapidly became relatively intelligent again. Makes zero sense...

[Monkey D Goku]

If the Saiya planet is still out there doesn't that possibly mean other sayians could be living on it too.

Yes, its a possibility. Though we don't know when "our" Saiyans left that planet or where they actually came from before landing on Plant. Assuming any Saiyans from the original homeworld survive into modern times and didn't face some sort of destruction/genocide, the Saiyans we know from planet Vegeta and the ones from planet Saiya could be very different beings.

That would have been a interesting encounter with Goku and the gang. I wonder though Vegeta seemed to have no clue that another Planet with potential Sayians was out there and King Kai seemed to make no mention of them. Although given somehow the Pioneer sayians managed to travel in a space ship they must have had some technological skills or at least met another race that provided them with the spaceship.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama said they were pirates in the distant past, bouncing from planet to planet to acquire wealth and power. Then the anime somehow has them they land on Plant like in Toriyama's notes and doodles, but they become dumb cavemen. Then in a century or two, they rapidly became relatively intelligent again. Makes zero sense...

Maybe when they were space pirates, some other space pirates (or a weather anomaly, or some thing else that doesn't blow up Planet Saiya, since Perfect Files says that it's still out there) attacked Planet Saiya, and the Saiyans putted the babies inside a spaceship. Many years later, the spaceship landed in Planet Plant, and the Saiyans in there, now grown up, started living in the caves. The rest is history.

[Eire]

My attempt wrap up loose ends: they crashed on that planet, lost most of the technology and new diseases wiped out most of them' leaving the rest unaware of their past and fighting more technically advanced opponents. Then something- civil war, treason, plague- happened to Tsufurians so Sayians got a chance to attack already weaken civilisation.

[Piccolo Daimao]

If the Saiya planet is still out there doesn't that possibly mean other sayians could be living on it too.

Yes, its a possibility. Though we don't know when "our" Saiyans left that planet or where they actually came from before landing on Plant. Assuming any Saiyans from the original homeworld survive into modern times and didn't face some sort of destruction/genocide, the Saiyans we know from planet Vegeta and the ones from planet Saiya could be very different beings.

I don't know. Vegeta, our authority on the Saiyans because he's their Prince and grew up there (as opposed to Earth-raised Gokuu and Gohan), seemed pretty damn sure when Trunks appeared on the scene, that there could be no other Saiyans alive but him, Gokuu and Gohan, so he must've had a good reason for believing that. Unless all the Saiyans suffered amnesia, due to their crash on Planet Plant, trauma or some grand battle.

And I thought Kaiou's explanation of the Saiyans in the anime is contradictory because he says Planet Vegeta was destroyed by its god due to the Saiyans' evil, when it was actually Freeza himself. Even if Kaiou somehow didn't know that, surely he would've gone by Freeza's cover story of a meteor or something colliding with the planet.

Also, the Daizenshuu says something like Planet Vegeta doesn't have a god, although the closest thing to a god for them is the Super Saiyan. Whether you want to resolve that with Kaiou's anime explanation (which may or may not have come before Dodoria revealing that Freeza actually destroyed Vegeta in the manga) is up to you, but I have to wonder why the Super Saiyan would destroy Vegeta as a punishment for the Saiyans' crimes, when he'd be a Saiyan himself and apparently the most evil, judging by the legend. But I guess it's only a legend, after all, and things may've gotten lost or twisted down the line...

Oh yeah I kinda put in my own What if theories along with the information. Anyways I see what your saying. It still doesn't explain how the Sayians were able to even use a spaceship.

Not even going to begin to try for an official explanation for that that attempts to combine all the known Saiyan history from the different sources. Stuff doesn't make sense when you do that...

Toriyama said they were pirates in the distant past, bouncing from planet to planet to acquire wealth and power. Then the anime somehow has them they land on Plant like in Toriyama's notes and doodles, but they become dumb cavemen. Then in a century or two, they rapidly became relatively intelligent again. Makes zero sense...

Yeah, there are so many explanations about the Saiyans' origin from the manga, anime and guidebooks that they just need to stick to one that basically retcons the others out.

If there is a Planet Saiya floating out there somewhere, the inhabitants may be dead, because they'd all gone to Plant and subsequently died (culminating in Freeza's genocide), they'd later died of old age or killed themselves in some inter-Saiyan conflict, some pirates or a Freeza gang exterminated them and sold them off to another race, or it'd been destroyed somehow. I don't know, I might be tripping over all this mess.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Also, the Daizenshuu says something like Planet Vegeta doesn't have a god, although the closest thing to a god for them is the Super Saiyan. Whether you want to resolve that with Kaiou's anime explanation (which may or may not have come before Dodoria revealing that Freeza actually destroyed Vegeta in the manga) is up to you, but I have to wonder why the Super Saiyan would destroy Vegeta as a punishment for the Saiyans' crimes, when he'd be a Saiyan himself and apparently the most evil, judging by the legend. But I guess it's only a legend, after all, and things may've gotten lost or twisted down the line...

We can assume that the Saiyans had a God, but the Saiyans didn't know about him. Or that the Daizenshuu is wrong here, at least for the anime. The problem is, however, how could a God bring a meteorite to destroy his planet? I don't question his powers, but this was a suicide too, and Gods can't commit suicide.

[Monkey D Goku]

Also, the Daizenshuu says something like Planet Vegeta doesn't have a god, although the closest thing to a god for them is the Super Saiyan. Whether you want to resolve that with Kaiou's anime explanation (which may or may not have come before Dodoria revealing that Freeza actually destroyed Vegeta in the manga) is up to you, but I have to wonder why the Super Saiyan would destroy Vegeta as a punishment for the Saiyans' crimes, when he'd be a Saiyan himself and apparently the most evil, judging by the legend. But I guess it's only a legend, after all, and things may've gotten lost or twisted down the line...

We can assume that the Saiyans had a God, but the Saiyans didn't know about him. Or that the Daizenshuu is wrong here, at least for the anime. The problem is, however, how could a God bring a meteorite to destroy his planet? I don't question his powers, but this was a suicide too, and Gods can't commit suicide.

Well I think they could I mean King Kai was killed by Cell explosion isn't that a sort of suicide even though he wasn't willing.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Also, the Daizenshuu says something like Planet Vegeta doesn't have a god, although the closest thing to a god for them is the Super Saiyan. Whether you want to resolve that with Kaiou's anime explanation (which may or may not have come before Dodoria revealing that Freeza actually destroyed Vegeta in the manga) is up to you, but I have to wonder why the Super Saiyan would destroy Vegeta as a punishment for the Saiyans' crimes, when he'd be a Saiyan himself and apparently the most evil, judging by the legend. But I guess it's only a legend, after all, and things may've gotten lost or twisted down the line...

We can assume that the Saiyans had a God, but the Saiyans didn't know about him. Or that the Daizenshuu is wrong here, at least for the anime. The problem is, however, how could a God bring a meteorite to destroy his planet? I don't question his powers, but this was a suicide too, and Gods can't commit suicide.

No, the Daizenshuu says that Planet Vegeta didn't have a god, so we should we assume otherwise because it clashes with the (non-manga-canon) anime? This is where the guidebooks come in if there's something we don't know or isn't explained (or at least, well enough) in the manga.

And exactly, that's what doesn't make much sense (although I don't think it explicitly says Vegeta's god destroyed the planet with a meteorite; just that he destroyed it). Unless he somehow flew out in space (surviving in it like Freeza, or just because he's a god) or escaped to Heaven, or otherwise felt that Vegeta couldn't be "saved" from itself, and that his job had effectively been rendered useless. Maybe the upper gods would let his suicide fly by them as "martyrdom".

Well I think they could I mean King Kai was killed by Cell explosion isn't that a sort of suicide even though he wasn't willing.

No, that's not suicide at all; part of its definition is that you are willing. Gokuu teleported Cell to Kaiou's planet without his permission and Cell blew up, killing Kaiou. Afterwards, Gokuu apologizes to Kaiou, who was disgruntled that Gokuu killed him to save one insignificant planet.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I don't know. Vegeta, our authority on the Saiyans because he's their Prince and grew up there (as opposed to Earth-raised Gokuu and Gohan), seemed pretty damn sure when Trunks appeared on the scene, that there could be no other Saiyans alive but him, Gokuu and Gohan, so he must've had a good reason for believing that. Unless all the Saiyans suffered amnesia, due to their crash on Planet Plant, trauma or some grand battle.

If there is a Planet Saiya floating out there somewhere, the inhabitants may be dead, because they'd all gone to Plant and subsequently died (culminating in Freeza's genocide), they'd later died of old age or killed themselves in some inter-Saiyan conflict, some pirates or a Freeza gang exterminated them and sold them off to another race, or it'd been destroyed somehow. I don't know, I might be tripping over all this mess.

Yes, as far as Vegeta knows, he and Kakarotto (and Tarble for those who want him to be canon) are the last true members or the warrior race of Saiyans, Time is the natural enemy to history for those who don't keep records, so Vegeta doesn't have to know everything.

Saiyans don't seem like the type of race to keep a detailed history of themselves. I mean, they are brutes that love fighting after all. "Our" Saiyans could have left planet Saiya hundreds of thousands of years ago, perhaps explaining why North Kaio may not know about the homeworld, 'twas before his time? If the inhabitants as a whole weren't very bright and were given the ship or something by a superior race, its possible that the others never ventured into space. Maybe they just stayed on their rock and evolution took its course between the two groups. Hell, maybe modern specimens from Saiya don't have tails, maybe they don't even like fighting anymore...maybe planet Saiya was originally Earth (that could explain the Saiyans and Earthlings ability to reproduce, but I'm not serious about this. lol).

[Piccolo Daimao]

I don't know. Vegeta, our authority on the Saiyans because he's their Prince and grew up there (as opposed to Earth-raised Gokuu and Gohan), seemed pretty damn sure when Trunks appeared on the scene, that there could be no other Saiyans alive but him, Gokuu and Gohan, so he must've had a good reason for believing that. Unless all the Saiyans suffered amnesia, due to their crash on Planet Plant, trauma or some grand battle.

If there is a Planet Saiya floating out there somewhere, the inhabitants may be dead, because they'd all gone to Plant and subsequently died (culminating in Freeza's genocide), they'd later died of old age or killed themselves in some inter-Saiyan conflict, some pirates or a Freeza gang exterminated them and sold them off to another race, or it'd been destroyed somehow. I don't know, I might be tripping over all this mess.

Yes, as far as Vegeta knows, he and Kakarotto (and Tarble for those who want him to be canon) are the last true members or the warrior race of Saiyans, Time is the natural enemy to history for those who don't keep records, so Vegeta doesn't have to know everything.

Saiyans don't seem like the type of race to keep a detailed history of themselves. I mean, they are brutes that love fighting after all. "Our" Saiyans could have left planet Saiya hundreds of thousands of years ago, perhaps explaining why North Kaio may not know about the homeworld, 'twas before his time? If the inhabitants as a whole weren't very bright and were given the ship or something by a superior race, its possible that the others never ventured into space. Maybe they just stayed on their rock and evolution took its course between the two groups. Hell, maybe modern specimens from Saiya don't have tails, maybe they don't even like fighting anymore...maybe planet Saiya was originally Earth (that could explain the Saiyans and Earthlings ability to reproduce, but I'm not serious about this. lol).

Hmm...yeah, that's fair enough. Interesting.

[soulnova]

I always assumed that their spaceship was broken and had been drifting through space for decades/centuries, crashing in Plant by mere chance. Drifting in space for gods know how long might have a detrimental effect on it's crew. As an alternative scifi example of this, you only need to watch "District 9".

The Saiyans who arrived to Plant must have been around 2000-5000 breeding pairs to be able to sustain a healthy genetic pool. I seem to recall Raditz mentioned they weren't many of them to start with when the planet was destroyed. About 10,000 of them would sound about right to me. Otherwise, no wonder why they were "brutes". Inbreeding does that to the bloodlines, specially if we realize most share similar features.

One of the reasons I believe Vegeta was so sure there wasn't any other Saiyans was because of the vastness of Frieza's empire. With that many worlds sold, enslaved or destroyed by the tyrant, he surely thought they were most likely death anyway.

I do hope one day the Earthlings set off to find the original planet to get their new set of Super Saiyan protectors. It would be fun to watch them try to not get killed in the process.

[Bussani]

I always figured the people of planet Saiya were just shipping their lower class off the planet to be rid of them.

[Eire]

Otherwise, no wonder why they were "brutes". Inbreeding does that to the bloodlines, specially if we realize most share similar features.

What?

[Monkey D Goku]

I always assumed that their spaceship was broken and had been drifting through space for decades/centuries, crashing in Plant by mere chance. Drifting in space for gods know how long might have a detrimental effect on it's crew. As an alternative scifi example of this, you only need to watch "District 9".

The Saiyans who arrived to Plant must have been around 2000-5000 breeding pairs to be able to sustain a healthy genetic pool. I seem to recall Raditz mentioned they weren't many of them to start with when the planet was destroyed. About 10,000 of them would sound about right to me. Otherwise, no wonder why they were "brutes". Inbreeding does that to the bloodlines, specially if we realize most share similar features.

One of the reasons I believe Vegeta was so sure there wasn't any other Saiyans was because of the vastness of Freeza's empire. With that many worlds sold, enslaved or destroyed by the tyrant, he surely thought they were most likely death anyway.

I do hope one day the Earthlings set off to find the original planet to get their new set of Super Saiyan protectors. It would be fun to watch them try to not get killed in the process.

Yes you bring some good points. I guess since the species were showed as primitive on planet plant over time they must have forgotten about their original home world. Still wondering how a species like that could use or make a spaceship. I'm leaning more towards someone gave them the spaceship or they stolen it from some unlucky tourists.

Yes I agree it would interesting to see hybrids like Gohan or Goten, Trunks go to the planet and then show them all the power of SSJ maybe they would considered royalty or something lol if there still alive.

[Pantalones]

Otherwise, no wonder why they were "brutes". Inbreeding does that to the bloodlines, specially if we realize most share similar features.

What?

I'm guessing he's referring to how generations of close inbreeding tends to lead to all sorts of problems... sometimes you get stuff like blood-related issues (bruising or bleeding too easily, not being able to form clots as quickly as you should, etc.) like in some of the European royal families, but another common thing when you have a lot of inbreeding is mental retardation and other more psychological/brain-related problems like that, which could cause a species to become less intelligent and more prone towards violence over time.
It's even worse when you have a smaller population that are all or mostly closely related (or share a lot of the same genetics out of coincidence) to begin with, since any nasty thing hiding in their genes will start coming out really quick once relatives (who are more likely to all have the genes for those nasty things) start inbreeding.

This is also why most "purebred" dogs tend to have so many health problems, especially the ones that have been "bred away" from being more wolf-like in size, appearance, or both. You can't have that degree of inbreeding and/or breeding-specific-features in a population of a species without that kind of thing coming up eventually.

[Eire]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Or common misinterpretation. Long story short- inbreeding increase risk of revealing recessive traits (those that reveal phenotype when you have two alleles- like PKU. Hemophilia you mentioned is X -linked disease that reveals mostly in man, since they carry just one allele and woman have a pair of genes. But said genes must already exist in population to begin with. Hemophilia in European royalty appeared from Queen Victoria's mutated gene. The other prominent family that was a victim of inbreeding (Hapsburg) was the clear case of inherited psychical malformations and epilepsy but the influence on their psychic is debatable- they could inherit something from Juana la Loca or their famous deviations were a result of rising children in manner considered ill even hundreds years ago.