'Controlling one's battle power' Confusion

[Son_Gohan]

When Nappa & Vegeta came to Earth, they were shown to be able to increase the battle power they were using at a given time, essentially powering up.




Yet they express surprise over the Earthlings, when they raised their battle powers as well:

Context: Vegeta was astonished at how the Earthlings could raise their powers. This time it was through Gohan’s Masenko attack.
Kuririn: “Is that G…Goku’s son…!? Wh…what an incredible ki…!!!”
Vegeta: “Battle power 2,800...!!! So they really do drastically change their battle powers!!”
Nappa: “2,800, eh?!!”
*Nappa blocks the attack*
Vegeta: “His power dropped all the way down. It seems he used it all up just now.”

Much later when Vegeta confronts Kui on Namek, he asserts that he learned how to "control [his] battle power!" while on Earth. But wasn't he already shown to be capable of it, only now to a finer degree? I would understand if it were simply suppressing his power that were seen as a big deal now, but he was already shown to alter it when needed.

It is made evident that this ability is considered uncommon to Freeza's forces:

Burta: “[...] races that can alter their battle power without transforming are rare.”
Recoom: “Hehhehhe, you’ve got some swell friends, Vegeta!”

So does this imply that how Nappa & Vegeta would access their true Ki reserves on Earth, was supposedly viewed as "transforming" to them? Exactly how does it differ from the Earthling's ability?

[VegettoEX]

I always had a big problem with that, as well -- Toriyama makes a massive point to show how the villains are surprised by the Earthlings and their ability to "power up" from hiding their true power, and then we get a long showcase of Nappa powering up.

What?

Perhaps they still have to go through some process of focusing that power into an attack? It's always "visible" (for lack of a better phrase; perhaps "sense-able"...?), but unless it's focused and manipulated, it's not accessible in the way they want to use it? For that shot of Nappa, maybe he's distributing that power evenly throughout his entire body so each limb becomes equally powerful/defensive? Then we get to something like his mouth blast against Goku, where perhaps he's focusing all of his power into just that one blast instead of throughout his entire body?

That's still super-vague and I feel still kinda contradicts the entire point of the explanation they give earlier, but eh.

[Piccolo Daimao]

We've been over this before, but I guess they're just rising their power to the surface rather than an actual suppression, if that makes any sense. For example, when Vegeta "powers up", to the naked eye (or naked ki-sensor), he'd appear to be growing in power. But if you read his battle power on a scouter, he'd consistently read at 18,000 at all times, unless he was injured.

But you're right; Toriyama really didn't explain this properly enough. Or maybe he just didn't care and wanted to go for dramatic effect. The trend of villains becoming much more powerful than the heroes expected is one that follows throughout the entire scenes, even when those villains can't actually control their battle power (although, admittedly, the majority of Gokuu and co.'s enemies, especially post-Z, can alter their strengths at will).

[dprez]

Lowering ones power to zero, sensing it accurately, being able to alter the power and nature of ones ki attacks freely. Simply being able to use all of ones power compared to having complete control over that power. The saiyans ( Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta ) all seamed to be able to consciously use their full power when they felt like it. Ginyu and Freeza can actually suppress their power and control it.

It is all rather vague and confusing. Everybody seams to be able to control their power in some shape or form, but the earthlings ki manipulation abilities are much more advanced it seams. The story makes a big deal out of how special the good guys are because of the control they have over their battle power, when we see the bad guys pretty much doing just that. I believe that anyone can more or less control their power output during a fight, but the complete mastery over ones power is something special, which allows the user to do whatever they want with it ( Gohan and Kuririn giving their ki to Piccolo in Freeza arc ).

Whether or not Vegeta and Nappa were at their full powers the entire time during their fight on earth, I don't know. I personally believe that they were not, but when they powered-up they were. Why else power up for so long. They were raising their power preparing for battle. Everyone reacted to how their ki kept getting bigger. Can they technically control their power, yes. Can they control and use it like the good guys can, no.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Well, actually, Raditz never powers up or seems to raise his battle power by concentrating it into a single point, the same thing Gokuu did with his Kamehameha that Raditz was surprised by. Basically, what Raditz appears to be talking about are charged attacks. And yet...Vegeta's Galick Gun is a charged attack to, and he was meant to have been knocking about with them ever since Planet Vegeta was destroyed. Perhaps Raditz was just dumb?

And even though Ginyuu and Freeza could control their battle powers, Ginyuu was surprised that Gohan could suppress his all the way down to zero, and neither he nor Freeza could sense ki without a scouter.

I also wonder if Toriyama's intentions changed as the story progressed. This is Toriyama we're talking about, after all: a guy who writes on the seat of his pants, after all. Perhaps he just didn't have it figured out. Like when he had Raditz imply that there was another baby who'd been sent off to another planet "like Kakarotto" at the time of Planet Vegeta's explosion, despite the fact that the youngest of them, Vegeta, would've been 5 at the time.

Or like when he didn't seem to have the afterlife system figured out when he made a big deal out of Enma beating Raditz (originally, Gokuu was surprised by it, but neither Kami nor Enma mentioned, "Yeah, but he was just a puffy little soul-cloud, so it doesn't matter; the thing about bad guys losing their bodies was only introduced in Gokuu's explanation at the end of the Cell arc).

[Hitiro]

What I got from the anime and manga is that the Earthlings had full control over their battle power allowing them to make an enemy who's trying to sense them think their resting battle power is weaker than they think. People like Nappa and Vegeta would have some sort of battle power they would always be at, even when not fighting, that they had no control over. Meaning that if your resting battle power is 2,000 you couldn't go any lower unless you could control your battle power. So, for example, Nappa perhaps had a resting battle power of 4,000 which he could never go under unless he was beaten up and he could increase it when he put forward more strength which would raise his battle power closer to its maximum. Much like how when you aren't doing any exercise you have a resting heart rate and depending on your fitness it would be different for every person but there would be no way to lower it from what your resting heart rate unless you were trained to do so. In this case, the Earthlings can control their resting battle power to any degree they want to make their opponent think they are weaker than they actually are.

[VegettoEX]

I don't think there's any question about any of that Hitiro (at least not from me) -- the point was that, sure, that's all well and good for the Earthlings, but then why do we get sequences of Nappa and Vegeta seemingly "powering up" if there's no purpose for them to do so because their power is always at its max as a sort of state-of-being...?

[Kaboom]

Okay everyone step back, I got this.

It may all seem confusing, but when you separate everything and look at it, there's a way to make sense of it. Like some of y'all have pointed out already, there's a marked difference in the methods at use here, both in using power and sensing it.

You've got your Earth warriors. They can actually control and alter their power level, for the purposes of stealth, preserving energy, deceiving their enemies, and so forth. This is an extremely rare ability that most races can't or don't know how to do without actually transforming.

They're also special in how they measure power. They learn to sense ki naturally, requiring no extra tools to detect or measure it. This is a huge tactical advantage in that it operates like a sixth sense that they can instinctively trust and react to in the heat of battle.

Then you've got your average space-thug. They can't control their power. All they can do, it seems, is "surface" it, like Piccolo Daimao first mentioned. This particular method of "powering up" is more about just how much effort they're putting into battle than anything else. They're not actually generating more power, or opening up power they'd held in reserve, or anything like that. They're just "getting pumped up for battle."

Then for measuring and detecting ki, these guys just use scouters, which can both track someone's location and give an accurate number to their power. We all know how those work.

Now where it gets interesting is how these different methods all intersect. Someone who can only "surface" their power is going to be at a disadvantage to someone who can actually freely control it. The ki controller is going to be able to decieve and hide from both scouters and ki sensers, which is obviously a huge advantage. Surfacing your ki, however, isn't going to change anything from the POV of a scouter. Vegeta and Nappa would always read at 18,000 and 4000.

However, surfacing ki does have one advantage, albeit a small one, over natural ki sensers. This is what the original topic harks to, and the biggest point I want to make. Apparently, it can be difficult for a natural ki-senser to accurately judge someone's power unless they're going all-out and actually using that power. We see this not only with Nappa and Vegeta, but other examples later in the series as well.

We've got 1st-form Freeza's power not being fully grasped until he "powers up" to fight Vegeta's entourage. We've got Perfect Cell not realizing Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's superiority over him until he's on the ground bleeding from the kid's blows (and Gohan likewise getting his arm critically injured after underestimating "Super Perfect" Cell). We've got nobody being sure if Super Saiyan 3 Goku could have defeated Fat Boo or not. I'm sure there's tons of more potential examples, but those should be enough to illustrate the idea.

So from the looks of it, it really can be hard for a natural ki-senser to get a feel for someone's true power unless that power is made obvious. Sensing ki naturally is usually a huge advantage and soundly superior over using scouters in almost every way. But this particular little aspect of it seems to be a bit of a downside, and can get you in trouble sometimes.

Like I said, it's all a very interesting topic. You've got 2 different types of feats, each with 2 different methods, and those 4 points end up criss-crossing in some very fascinating ways.



Let me wrap this up with an old analogy I've been using for this particular topic since, like, forever. Imagine that someone's amount of ki is represented by their muscles. Most people in the universe wear short-sleeved t-shirts.

Judging someone's strength with a scouter is the equivalent of them having a sticky note on their foreheads which lists exactly how much they can bench-press. Natural ki-sensing, on the other hand, is like simply guessing how strong someone is just by their looks. Even while they're wearing their t-shirt, you can still see their arms and neck and probably take a good guess at their power.

"Surfacing" your ki, what we see Nappa, Vegeta, and the like do, is simply a matter of taking off the t-shirt and flexing. Natural ki-sensers now finally have a much more accurate depiction of your physiology compared to themselves and others. Otherwise, nothing's actually different. Your muscles aren't bigger, they just look bigger. But the sticky note hasn't moved, and the number on it hasn't changed.

Controlling and masking your ki, on the other hand, is a lot different. That's like swapping out your standard short-sleeved shirt for a baggy long-sleeved turtleneck, and donning a hat to hide your sticky note. Now nobody's sure if you even have any muscles at all until you rip it all off and flex like everyone else.

[Hitiro]

I don't think there's any question about any of that Hitiro (at least not from me) -- the point was that, sure, that's all well and good for the Earthlings, but then why do we get sequences of Nappa and Vegeta seemingly "powering up" if there's no purpose for them to do so because their power is always at its max as a sort of state-of-being...?

Sorry, I thought I wouldn't come across very clearly when I explained it. It probably didn't help that I used Nappa's battle power from Daizenshuu 7, what I mean to say is that like having a resting heart rate characters have a resting battle power that isn't their maximum. They can increase their battle power as they fight but they can never go lower than their resting battle power. In Daizenshuu 7 it states that Vegeta's battle power was 18,000. This is probably his maximum when he is fighting his hardest but when he isn't fighting his battle power is probably something like 10,000. However, because he couldn't control his battle power at this point he couldn't lower it below his resting battle power of 10,000. The surprise for most of the characters in the series is that they can't understand why someone has a certain battle power when he is being idle can be much stronger than what his resting battle power is. So a character who is just standing about may be reading only as 5,000 which would make other people assume his maximum is only 10,000 when he's fighting.

[FNF]

I've heard @Kaboom describe it as 'flexing their muscles' before which I ultimately agree with. They're not raising their bp per se. They're just putting on a display.

[shonenhikada]

What seperates the Z-fighters from Freeza's men is that the z-fighters can raise and suppress their base power evels (which is the power level they are normally accustom having without having to power up), however Freeza's men are unable to suppress their base power level, and are able to increase their battle power only by powering up.

Example
So its like say Nappa for example he's always at 4000 PL and is unable to lower it like how goku wsa able to on Namek, but can increase his power level to his max of around 8000 by powering up.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I really like Kaboom's explanation.

Also, doesn't Raditz mention something along the lines of "I'm going to increase the power in my attacks" or something? If that's the case, Kaboom, do you believe that can also fit under the "surfacing of Chi" description? Or do you think that was more of an effort increase? I do recall Piccolo saying Raditz never showed that amount of power before, so I'm just wondering.

[Kaboom]

If that's the case, Kaboom, do you believe that can also fit under the "surfacing of Chi" description? Or do you think that was more of an effort increase?

One and the same, really. It's force and effort. There's a difference between playfully punching someone on the shoulder and slugging them square in the face.

[shonenhikada]

If that's the case, Kaboom, do you believe that can also fit under the "surfacing of Chi" description? Or do you think that was more of an effort increase?

One and the same, really. It's force and effort. There's a difference between playfully punching someone on the shoulder and slugging them square in the face.

so my explanation is wrong ?

Because Nappa sure look like he wanted to hit goku when he was getting his butt kicked, then he powered up and fought even with him.

[FNF]

If that's the case, Kaboom, do you believe that can also fit under the "surfacing of Chi" description? Or do you think that was more of an effort increase?

One and the same, really. It's force and effort. There's a difference between playfully punching someone on the shoulder and slugging them square in the face.

so my explanation is wrong ?

Because Nappa sure look like he wanted to hit goku when he was getting his butt kicked, then he powered up and fought even with him.

This is how I explained it a while back;

Nappa never really raised his pl. All that changed was his mentality. His power was always around 8,000 (when concentrating his ki while he was still 'in his right mind'). He only surfaced his Ki and concentrated it into an aura.

When he lost his mind however, it effected his ability to fight and manipulate Ki and concentrate properly. It is stated that he couldn't manipulate his actual power level itself.

Here's how his fight with the Z senshi went;

Beginning- 8,000~, not surfaced so it doesn't make his pl obvious to everyone.
Vs Tenshinhan- 8,000~, surfaced and concentrated into an aura.
Vs the rest of the Z senshi- 8,000~, not surfaced and not concentrated and not his right mind (his general battle ability falls and it effects his ability to use his power).
Vs Goku initially- 8,000~, not surfaced and not concentrated and out of his mind completely(which effects his ability to use his power and manipulate it).
Vs Goku final- 8,000~ surfaced and concentrated and completely in his right mind (simply put by Nappa, he was showing what he was 'really capable of' in all aspects).

Simply put, the concept of Shouki (being in your right mind) that AT spoken of, is perfectly shown via Nappa.

[Hitiro]

Nappa never really raised his pl. All that changed was his mentality. His power was always around 8,000 (when concentrating his ki while he was still 'in his right mind'). He only surfaced his Ki and concentrated it into an aura.

When he lost his mind however, it effected his ability to fight and manipulate Ki and concentrate properly. It is stated that he couldn't manipulate his actual power level itself.

Here's how his fight with the Z senshi went;

Beginning- 8,000~, not surfaced so it doesn't make his pl obvious to everyone.
Vs Tenshinhan- 8,000~, surfaced and concentrated into an aura.
Vs the rest of the Z senshi- 8,000~, not surfaced and not concentrated and not his right mind (his general battle ability falls and it effects his ability to use his power).
Vs Goku initially- 8,000~, not surfaced and not concentrated and out of his mind completely(which effects his ability to use his power and manipulate it).
Vs Goku final- 8,000~ surfaced and concentrated and completely in his right mind (simply put by Nappa, he was showing what he was 'really capable of' in all aspects).

Simply put, the concept of Shouki (being in your right mind) that AT spoken of, is perfectly shown via Nappa.

Daizenshuu 7 says Nappa was around 4,000. He must have been able to increase it higher than this when fighting against Goku because I doubt any amount of Shouki would allow him to fight on equal terms with a person who has twice his battle power.

To be honest a line like this:

Chapter: 269 (DBZ 75), P13.2
Vegeta: “Damn it! I can’t sense their presence! Those brats can even control their presence down to 0!”

Really makes me think that controlling you're battle power only relates to altering the battle power a person will see while you aren't fighting.

[Son_Gohan]

Insightful viewpoints so far.

However, I'm still torn whether those instances in fact heightened their battle powers or not. Taking a look at Freeza for example, when he is first shown "powering up" in his initial form...



It is made clear by Piccolo that Freeza's Ki was in fact getting bigger.

Context: as Freeza powers up
Piccolo: “That large ki has become even more absurdly large! Is this ‘Freeza’ finally starting to move?!”

Which would imply that a scouter wouldn't read his power as a stagnant figure, and he was either less than 530,000 before, or had surpassed it by powering up.

Also, I noticed something while watching the Dragon Box that sheds more light on the Earthlings' degree of Ki control. It appears to be an anime-only line, but I found it interesting nonetheless:




Apparently they can remain in a suppressed state, yet still augment their Ki so that it wouldn't be detected by a scouter, and then let it all out when needed.

[Kaboom]

Ah, I forgot about Freeza. He actually is one of the rare few that can control his battle power, even within his individual transformations. They make mention of it when he does so within his second form. It's possible he did it there, too.

[Bussani]

The idea that Freeza's men can raise their battle power but not lower it gets thrown around a lot, but I'm not sure about it. The people with scouters always make it seem like a battle power will not change at all. Take this quote, for instance:

Chapter: 214 (DBZ 20), P4.3-5
Nappa: “981... 1,220... 1,083... Idiots! Do you really plan on defying us with that level of battle power...?!"
Vegeta: “These people change their battle power in response to the fight. Those figures can't be relied upon any more.”

It's not, "We can't rely on this reading because their battle powers might increase when they start fighting, just like ours." It's, "We can't rely on these numbers because these guys can change their battle power at will.*"

*"Unlike us"?

Another one is:

Chapter: 222 (DBZ 28), P4.1
Vegeta: “Someone with a battle ability of about 5,000...!!”
Nappa: “5,000?! That’s impossible! It has to be a mistake.”
Vegeta: “It’s truly an unthinkable figure for the old Kakarot. What’s more, the people here are able to alter their figures…So 5,000 could just be his minimum.”

"People here are able to alter their figures, so this might just be his minimum." Doesn't that make it seem like people not from there, i.e. Nappa and he, aren't able to alter their figures from a base minimum? All of the dialogue points towards their battle powers being static, if you ask me.

So what does that mean?

When Nappa & Vegeta came to Earth, they were shown to be able to increase the battle power they were using at a given time

Technically, since no scouter was pointed at them, we don't know that their "battle power" increased at all. Which raises a question that sometimes causes some controversy: are battle power and ki truly the same thing?

I think it depends on how you look at it. I definitely think battle power is a measurement of ki, but that doesn't necessarily mean that scouters and people measure it in the same way. If we just take everything at face value for a moment and try to think objectively, these are the facts we have:

• Nappa and Vegeta make it clear that battle powers changing is uncommon, implying that theirs don't.
• Nappa "powers up", and the Earthlings become terrified by his power, hinting that they couldn't tell before just how powerful he was.
• Piccolo only guessed that Vegeta was the stronger of the two because he was bossier, indicating that they couldn't tell from his ki alone.
• When Vegeta kills Nappa, Goku admits that he was stronger than he first thought.

If I think about it completely objectively, the only explanation that fits is that a scouter can't tell the difference between Vegeta standing there and Vegeta blowing Nappa up, but someone like Goku can feel a difference. A lot of people don't seem to like this idea because it implies scouters may have had some sort of advantage over ki sensing--that is, that it can tell a person's "true strength" before they start fighting, whereas a person who can sense ki can't. I suppose that's true in a way, but only when pointing your scouter at someone who can't change their battle power. Plus, if we consider that Goku and Piccolo couldn't even find Raditz by sensing his ki just a year earlier, it may simply be that their ki sensing simply wasn't perfect back when Vegeta and Nappa arrived, and may have improved as time went on.

There are a few other examples that might lend themselves to the above idea. Videl doesn't know what ki is, so you wouldn't think she could change her battle power at will, yet her ki only becomes noticeable to Gohan once she starts fighting. I used to think this meant that her battle power did increase, like others have suggested Vegeta and Nappa's might have, but taking what I said above into account, it might be that her ki just became more noticeable to ki sensing. If a scouter had been pointed at her at that moment, maybe it wouldn't have registered a change in her numerical battle power at all.

[Fox666]

Ah, I forgot about Freeza. He actually is one of the rare few that can control his battle power, even within his individual transformations. They make mention of it when he does so within his second form. It's possible he did it there, too.

Vegeta was surprised after seeing that ability in his second form, so I don't think he did something similar before.