Can we use HXH explanation of Nen for Db's Ki?

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TheGmGoken
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Can we use HXH explanation of Nen for Db's Ki?

Post by TheGmGoken » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:20 am

This is also to help Kamiccolo9 with his journey to finding more info about ki. I feel like Ki wasn't explained enough in the DB series. To me this is a shocker since Ki was a Major aspect to the series. So what can we apply from Hunter X Hunter Nen to Dragonball's Ki? Here an explanation of Nen. *Warning it's long*

Nen is a technique that allows a living being to use and manipulate their own life energy. Since HXH sometimes use the word aura and Dbz had a-lot of aura in it let's just use the word aura for the time being. Aura is the life energy produced by all living bodies vital for survival. Aura from all parts of the body has a tendency to flow together, producing one mass of energy. This happens without the individual's awareness, typically resulting in a slow leak of aura continually escaping the body. If one were to lose their entire aura, it would be equivalent to using up all the energy that is keeping them alive, which would be fatal. The pores or points on the body from which aura flows out from are called nods. Controlling those nodes is the first step to being a user of Nen.

A student learning Nen trains to manually open and close their aura nodes so that they can control the flow of their aura. One typically learns this process slowly and gradually through meditation. The other method is by having one receiving an influx of aura from an experienced user that forces these nodes to open, despite how quickly it works. If I'm correct then the method is frowned upon due to its danger to the student if the user is inexperienced or has bad intents. Initiation via physically attacking another with the use of an enhanced aura typically causes permanent disability or death. Similar to Dragonball I think. Over stressing your body with Ki(Kaioken,USSJ, and just powering up beyond limits) stress your body out and can badly hurt you. Maybe even kill you. Like when Goku used Kaioken x3 and Kaioken x all Yajoribe did was slap Goku and Goku cried.

There is, however, a way to Initiate that is less harmful to the student's body depending on gently jolting open one's nodes
forces the new user to learn to control their aura flow, else risk suffering severe exhaustion or death. Once one has opened their aura nodes, he will be able to see his own aura as a shroud surrounding the body due to his nodes in his eyes being opened. Aura appears to look similar to steam from a kettle. I don't think this fits except for the beginning with making the Nen less harmful. I compare this to Full power SSJ or Master SSJ. Learning to control your state to make it less stressful to the body to the point it's like you're next using it no more.

It is possible to feel the presence of aura even without being aware of its existence. I think this could be applied to Videl when first learn Ki had Akira explained it more. I wonder why he didn't even to this day. Gohan teaching videl would have been a great explanation time for it. Since every living being emits aura subconsciously, learning to sense aura is a useful skill for those tracking living things or hunting non-living things infused with aura. An experienced user of Nen can judge the location and relative strength of his opponents through reading the output of their aura. You just have to watch Dbz to know what I'm going to say. Ki sensing.

Although the production of aura is unconscious and constant by all living beings, it is not only life energy. Aura carries with it the desires and emotions of the one who deploys it. This can be implied for Gohan's rage moments. This can also explain why Vegeta rage moments never helped him till he had the desire to do something about it. Hence why he got stronger then SSJ3 Goku for a short amount of time when Bills slapped Bulma. A basic application of this phenomenon is that one can channel their aggression or malice into their aura and deploy it towards another person(Blood-thirsty). Gohan when he fought Cell and Cell Jrs. That fits perfectly. I think HXH can explain Ki for Dbz guys :thumbup: .

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Re: Can we use HXH explanation of Nen for Db's Ki?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:22 am

This is also to help Kamiccolo9 with his journey to finding more info about ki.
Yay, a topic for me! :D
This is really interesting. It's given me some ideas I wanna work with, so I'll get back later today with that.
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Re: Can we use HXH explanation of Nen for Db's Ki?

Post by TheGmGoken » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:12 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
This is also to help Kamiccolo9 with his journey to finding more info about ki.
Yay, a topic for me! :D
This is really interesting. It's given me some ideas I wanna work with, so I'll get back later today with that.
Did this help you?

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Re: Can we use HXH explanation of Nen for Db's Ki?

Post by Kendamu » Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:54 am

I prefer to look at ki in Dragonball as something much more simple: a flashy exaggerated version of real life martial arts technique.

Before I begin, I'm referring to ki in this posting as a type of mind power. The mind and body affect each other very much and, when used together properly, a martial artist can generate a lot more power with a lot less physical effort. This is as true in Dragonball as it is in real life. This mind power is often visualized as an actual energy-like substance because that picture makes it easier to understand things like kinetic linking when executing an attack.

In many martial arts classes, you'll hear students yelling when throwing their punches and kicks. This yell is called a kiai. The kiai is good for a lot of different things. The most basic of such is to help a student clear their mind and use proper breathing technique when attacking. This creates attacks that are stronger than attacks without kiai. Kiai can also be used to psyche yourself up, take a hit without as much injury (to certain areas) or pain, or intimidate or "throw off" an opponent. Overall, it covers all the bases of powering up, attacking from a distance, making attacks ineffective, and using your energy in very quick, localized bursts.

On top of that, many traditional martial arts also use candles for training ki and its martial use. Two of these techniques involve sitting and watching a candle flame as it moves without breaking your concentration and another involves punching at a candle flame from a certain distance to generate enough wind to blow it out. The concentration exercise is pretty obvious in regards to its goals of increasing willpower and ability to keep your mind clear. The punching exercise stresses proper technique. The better the technique, the more power you project from a smaller point. The more power you project from a smaller point, the more wind you generate to blow out the flame. The better you are at blowing out the flame, the further away from the candle you can blow it out from. The further away you can blow it out from, the more destructive any single punch will be against an opponent.

On top of regular technique training and physical conditioning, training with the above ideas creates a martial artist who can use their "ki" to go beyond their normal physical limitations, focus amazing amounts of destructive energy into a single point, make themselves feel like they're surging with power, resist an opponents attacks, "project" their "ki" to startle or intimidate an opponent (thus reducing said opponent's "ki" and creating an opening for an attack), and keeping your energy output to a minimum except for the instant of an attack where a small amount is used in a sudden efficient burst. If that doesn't sound like something straight out of Dragonball, then I don't think we're talking about the same story. :P

Not saying that what you're saying it wrong or that you shouldn't discuss it. I personally just have a much simpler alternative based in actual martial arts training. It doesn't match up exactly perfectly if you get really nitty gritty with it, though. For example, kiai is its own category separate from other types of ki attacks in Dragonball where in real life kiai pretty much covers the entire spectrum. So, if you want to, please steal some of what I've written down and take it into consideration when coming up with your own ideas of ki in Dragonball. :D

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Re: Can we use HXH explanation of Nen for Db's Ki?

Post by SaiyanZ » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:52 pm

I don't think it can. Nen classifies people into 6 different classes, and depending on which class you are, your ability/effectiveness in the other 5 classes are also brought down. For instance, Gon is an Enhancer, meaning his physical attacks are much better (stronger, faster, w/e) than his projectile ones. For all intents and purposes, the Saiyans and other fighters have shown exceptional control over every category that Nen covers (thus no limitation in DBZ's case).

Now if you include something like Kurapika's Emperor Time, where you are able to use 100% of your potential in each class of designated Nen type, then maybe its a discussion. But from what I've seen, there really isn't an inclination towards one type of attack (be it a physical attack or ki attack). Nen seems to determine what type of attacks you are best at and make that one the best, whereas ki in DBZ seems to develop all the different kinds of attacks at the same rate (so like, you go SSJ, and your physical and ki attacks are better than in base form).

I can really only see the basis for Nen and ki being similar; it's based of "life energy" with there being different ways of awakening it. I believe in filler, Mutaito used a similar tech on Goku that Wing used on Gon and Killua.

Btw, read/watch Hunter x Hunter guys, its by the same guy who made YuYu Hakusho. Its known for its long hiatuses, but I easily put this manga over the HST (Naruto, One Piece and Bleach) and most other shonen manga. :D
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Re: Can we use HXH explanation of Nen for Db's Ki?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:06 pm

SaiyanZ wrote:I don't think it can. Nen classifies people into 6 different classes, and depending on which class you are, your ability/effectiveness in the other 5 classes are also brought down. For instance, Gon is an Enhancer, meaning his physical attacks are much better (stronger, faster, w/e) than his projectile ones. For all intents and purposes, the Saiyans and other fighters have shown exceptional control over every category that Nen covers (thus no limitation in DBZ's case).

Now if you include something like Kurapika's Emperor Time, where you are able to use 100% of your potential in each class of designated Nen type, then maybe its a discussion. But from what I've seen, there really isn't an inclination towards one type of attack (be it a physical attack or ki attack). Nen seems to determine what type of attacks you are best at and make that one the best, whereas ki in DBZ seems to develop all the different kinds of attacks at the same rate (so like, you go SSJ, and your physical and ki attacks are better than in base form).

I can really only see the basis for Nen and ki being similar; it's based of "life energy" with there being different ways of awakening it. I believe in filler, Mutaito used a similar tech on Goku that Wing used on Gon and Killua.

Btw, read/watch Hunter x Hunter guys, its by the same guy who made YuYu Hakusho. Its known for its long hiatuses, but I easily put this manga over the HST (Naruto, One Piece and Bleach) and most other shonen manga. :D
Not 100% of explanation of Nen can go to DB's ki true. But as I pointed out in the topic a lot of it can. Besides who to say that everything stated above works for Ki except the category. Maybe Db's ki doesn't have categories but the explanation is quite the same. Through this can be argued. I've already read and watched it but I know you meant everyone who reads this lol.

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Re: Can we use HXH explanation of Nen for Db's Ki?

Post by NeoKING » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:27 pm

Absolutely not. Nen isn't like your typical Shonen manga energy. Togashi, the author of HxH, takes the Ki trope and turns it on it's head by how systematic and advanced he made Nen. Not only that, but Nen has qualities that Ki doesn't, such as being drawn from Aura and being able to work even after the original Nen user has died.

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Re: Can we use HXH explanation of Nen for Db's Ki?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:40 pm

NeoKING wrote:Absolutely not. Nen isn't like your typical Shonen manga energy. Togashi, the author of HxH, takes the Ki trope and turns it on it's head by how systematic and advanced he made Nen. Not only that, but Nen has qualities that Ki doesn't, such as being drawn from Aura and being able to work even after the original Nen user has died.
I would't say "absolutely not." because as I pointed already some of the aspects actually works very well with Ki logic

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Re: Can we use HXH explanation of Nen for Db's Ki?

Post by SaiyanZ » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:54 pm

NeoKING wrote:Absolutely not. Nen isn't like your typical Shonen manga energy. Togashi, the author of HxH, takes the Ki trope and turns it on it's head by how systematic and advanced he made Nen. Not only that, but Nen has qualities that Ki doesn't, such as being drawn from Aura and being able to work even after the original Nen user has died.
It is very hard to remember the Nen system. I gave up on learning all the Nen techniques a while back :lol:
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Re: Can we use HXH explanation of Nen for Db's Ki?

Post by Saitou Hajime » Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:32 pm

I never did get why ki manipulation in DB didn't have that ability where stronger beings can overwhelm weaker ones just by exerting their auras.

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Re: Can we use HXH explanation of Nen for Db's Ki?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:35 pm

Saitou Hajime wrote:I never did get why ki manipulation in DB didn't have that ability where stronger beings can overwhelm weaker ones just by exerting their auras.
Goku does that to Chi-Chi in the 23rd Budokai, Goku does it to Salza in Movie 5, and Cell does it to Trunks and Krillin while transforming into his perfect form. There are probably some more instances of this.
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Re: Can we use HXH explanation of Nen for Db's Ki?

Post by Saitou Hajime » Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:54 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Saitou Hajime wrote:I never did get why ki manipulation in DB didn't have that ability where stronger beings can overwhelm weaker ones just by exerting their auras.
Goku does that to Chi-Chi in the 23rd Budokai, Goku does it to Salza in Movie 5, and Cell does it to Trunks and Krillin while transforming into his perfect form. There are probably some more instances of this.
It was thinking something more along the lines of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP14oES6gsA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phfwkny2JeU#t=01m41s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3Bgdyd1Omw#t=01m24s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEV8oFDPHVE#t=14m59s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNlCm0yNTWY

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