Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8881
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:07 am

Buu's bio in Daizenshuu 7 says the following:
He killed the North and West Kaioshin, absorbed the South Kaioshin, and then when he took in the gentle heart of the Dai Kaioshin, his ferociousness and power were somewhat weakened. Afterwards he was sealed away by Bibidi, and many centuries passed. In the year Age 774, his seal was broken by Bibidi's son Babidi, and he was once again resurrected as a fearsome majin. Though he befriended Mister Satan for a time, afterwards he changed into an evil Buu. This evil Buu powered up by successively absorbing Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan. In his battle against Vegetto, the good portion inside him was cut off, and he transformed into his original form, the pure Buu. In the end, he was annihilated by a Super Genki-dama collected from the ki of all humanity. Meanwhile, the good Buu came to live with Mister Satan, and changed his name to Mister Buu.
I used to think that this entry was saying that Fat Buu was only somewhat weaker than Pure Buu. However, Kamiccolo9 brought up a good point: it didn't specify which form of Buu was weakened. But logically, we know what Buu it is: Buff Buu. He's the one who absorbed Grand Kaioshin in the first place. The process of absorbing the Grand Kaioshin "somewhat weakened" Buff Buu. Buuuuuut... Buff Buu was turned into Fat Buu, who's much, much weaker than Buff Buu, not just by a bit. So that can't be right, right?

Well... not really. People often forget this, but the power Fatty used against Goku was never stated to be his full, and was heavily implied not to be. There wasn't anything special about it, it was just one in a long line of power ups. Saying that Fatty is much weaker than Super Buu based on THIS power is like saying he's much weaker than Majin Vegeta based on his initial level right after exiting the pod, before he did any angry power ups. Fat Buu's true maximum logically only came out when Mr. Satan was shot. His aura flared, steam came out of his head, and he was madder than ever. These are all signs of a power up, going by previous examples. Fat Buu, at that exact moment, could've been anything, power wise. And I think the story at least leans towards him being stronger than SS3 Goku in that instance, since Evil Buu should be as strong or more likely stronger than Pure Buu by himself.

I think the entry was implying that Fat Buu's full power is the same as Super Buu's, and THAT is the level that is somewhat below Buff Buu's. It's just simple math when you think about it; they're made of the same components. Among other things, this would indicate that Super Buu, Gotenks, and Gohan probably aren't as strong as many people think (just enough to be incredibly superior to Goku and Pure Buu), since Full Power Fat Buu had his power split between Evil Buu and Good Buu. Unless you think Evil Buu is just a god who is a bajillion times stronger than all the non-fusions, and the addition of a low SS3 tier fighter's power was completely negligible, but then you'd have to address the issue of why this supposed beast produced the weak Pure Buu, with all that extra power seemingly disappearing.

What do you guys think about that entry?
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
DBZGTKOSDH
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 12401
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:45 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:02 am

I don't believe that Innocent Boo gets rage boosts that make him stronger than he is stated to be. So, he is stronger than all Super Saiyan 2 & Pure Evil Boo, but weaker than SS3 Goku, SS Gotenks, Evil Boo, etc.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

User avatar
Kamiccolo9
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10371
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:32 pm
Location: Regensburg, Germany

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:00 am

Well said Random. That's pretty much what I think.
Champion of the 1st Kanzenshuu Short Story Tenkaichi Budokai
Kamiccolo9's Kompendium of Short Stories
Cipher wrote:If Vegeta does not kill Gohan, I will stop illegally streaming the series.
Malik_DBNA wrote:
Scarz wrote:Malik, stop. People are asking me for lewd art of possessed Bra (with Vegeta).
"Achievement Unlocked: Rule 34"

User avatar
SSJ4_Zankuto
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 378
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:43 pm
Location: South Wales
Contact:

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by SSJ4_Zankuto » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:50 am

Well from the story-wise of that power. Fat Boo raising his Ki upto full power suggests to me, Toriyama didn't want Gotenks to kill Fat Boo and become Earth's hero. So, when Evil Boo was first introduced, Toriyama decided to give Gotenks transformations beyond Super Saiyan like Super Saiyan 3.

User avatar
MDSTSSJ
Regular
Posts: 655
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:19 am

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by MDSTSSJ » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:51 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I don't believe that Innocent Boo gets rage boosts that make him stronger than he is stated to be. So, he is stronger than all Super Saiyan 2 & Pure Evil Boo, but weaker than SS3 Goku, SS Gotenks, Evil Boo, etc.
Pretty much the same but I still have some doubts and that´s why I opened a thread while ago of a similar subject.

Those two have the same components. Super Buu is dominated by the evil side and gained consciousness and Fat Boo is dominated by the good side but he is not entirely good. We do not know if those moments of anger act as a mere anger or act as rage boosts. We never know because we never saw him fight with anger moments to conclude that increased his powers.

People often forget that the power Fat Boo used against Goku and the power Kakarotto used against Fat Boo was never stated to be his full, and was heavily implied not to be. That´s why I always believed that those two were contained or suppressed at the time of the fight.
Last edited by MDSTSSJ on Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
OWmyDragonBallz
Regular
Posts: 724
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:02 am

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:26 pm

Goku wouldn't have said he would have been able to defeat Fat Boo if Fat boo was somehow hiding back a power of that magnitude with Mr. Satan. That's called underestimating an opponent and Goku knows very well not to do that. I'm pretty sure Goku was certain that he was stronger than Fat Boo at any level of rage, otherwise with that logic, Majin Vegeta would have been able to defeat Fat Boo before Boo got angry and SSJ Gotenks (Pre Rosat) would be weaker than Fat boo.

In a sense, Evil Boo (Super Boo as most fans apparently like to call him) and Fat Boo are equaled to Buff Boo, but since Dai Kaioshin is locking all that power away, then it's impossible for them to attain that power. Fat Boo is more restricted than Evil Boo and by default, it should be impossible for the Evil influence to be on the dominant side of Fat Boo which therefore means that Fat Boo must have reached his limits right before he released Pure Evil Boo (and that limit can still be weaker than Evil Boo). Boo's power didn't grab the attention of Goku and the others until he became Evil Boo and Piccolo even said everything about him is greater than before which must mean that also includes his power. Evil Boo is infact the Evil dominant side of Fat Boo because the influence of Dai Kaioshin is much lesser and is closer to South Kaioshin (which is why he looks closer to his Buff Boo form).
I still have the chain as Evil Boo > SSJ3 Goku >= Pure Boo > Fat Boo > Pure Evil Boo > Good Boo.

User avatar
mAcChaos
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1869
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by mAcChaos » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:39 pm

> Goku wouldn't have said he would have been able to defeat Fat Boo if Fat boo was somehow hiding back a power of that magnitude with Mr. Satan. That's called underestimating an opponent and Goku knows very well not to do that.

I don't think they could detect the levels of ki that Fat Buu was holding back, since they thought they could take him in the beginning until he pulled out more.
[i]"I have yet to show you, young warrior, what I'm truly capable of."[/i] - Cell

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8881
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:46 pm

Goku wouldn't have said he would have been able to defeat Fat Boo if Fat boo was somehow hiding back a power of that magnitude with Mr. Satan. That's called underestimating an opponent and Goku knows very well not to do that.
Goku didn't know Fat Buu was that strong. He also seemed to underestimate Cell and Freeza, thinking the levels they were fighting him at were full power. He was shocked when they brought out more.
I'm pretty sure Goku was certain that he was stronger than Fat Boo at any level of rage, otherwise with that logic, Majin Vegeta would have been able to defeat Fat Boo before Boo got angry and SSJ Gotenks (Pre Rosat) would be weaker than Fat boo.
Goku could only judge Fat Buu's power by what he saw. He'd have to be psychic to know Fat Buu's full strength that had been undisplayed. And he underestimated Fat Buu twice before. I don't see why this would be the one exception.
In a sense, Evil Boo (Super Boo as most fans apparently like to call him) and Fat Boo are equaled to Buff Boo, but since Dai Kaioshin is locking all that power away, then it's impossible for them to attain that power. Fat Boo is more restricted than Evil Boo and by default, it should be impossible for the Evil influence to be on the dominant side of Fat Boo which therefore means that Fat Boo must have reached his limits right before he released Pure Evil Boo (and that limit can still be weaker than Evil Boo).
The Daizenshuu seems to imply that the limit he reached WAS 'Evil Buu', though, since it said that Fat Buu was only a bit weaker than Buff Buu.
Boo's power didn't grab the attention of Goku and the others until he became Evil Boo and Piccolo even said everything about him is greater than before which must mean that also includes his power.
Did we even see Piccolo's reaction to the split?
Evil Boo is infact the Evil dominant side of Fat Boo because the influence of Dai Kaioshin is much lesser and is closer to South Kaioshin (which is why he looks closer to his Buff Boo form).
Just because Super can actually use all of his power doesn't mean that Fat Buu didn't have it for a brief moment before the split, like the Daizenshuu seems to be saying.
I still have the chain as Evil Boo > SSJ3 Goku >= Pure Boo > Fat Boo > Pure Evil Boo > Good Boo.
Good Buu's feats against Pure Buu and Pure Evil Buu's feats against Good Buu essentially make that impossible.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
Kamiccolo9
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10371
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:32 pm
Location: Regensburg, Germany

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:50 pm

We don't see anyone's reaction to the split, except Mr. Satan's.
Piccolo says "What's that!?!" right before Gray Buu is formed, but afterwards all we see is Mr. and Gray Buu's fight, and the subsequent "fusion." No one else's reactions to the split, or Fat Buu expelling his evil, are shown.

Edit: Oh, and Van Zant. Can't forget him.
Champion of the 1st Kanzenshuu Short Story Tenkaichi Budokai
Kamiccolo9's Kompendium of Short Stories
Cipher wrote:If Vegeta does not kill Gohan, I will stop illegally streaming the series.
Malik_DBNA wrote:
Scarz wrote:Malik, stop. People are asking me for lewd art of possessed Bra (with Vegeta).
"Achievement Unlocked: Rule 34"

User avatar
TheGmGoken
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10592
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:19 pm
Location: Capsule Corps

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by TheGmGoken » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:44 pm

I thought they were equal as well. Seeing as his power so much me made a split form. Also think that Gray Boo > Pure Boo. Since Pure Boo was implied to be equal or maybe stronger than SSJ3 that makes Gray Boo(Fat Boo full power) stronger. Which should make him on Super Boo level or at least slightly weaker.

Axiom
Banned
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:24 am

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by Axiom » Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:00 pm

No, FatBuu was not as strong as SuperBuu, in fact Vegeta mentioned that a FatBuu would be weaker than a Superbuu.

I don't understand theories like this - there is 1milllion ways that it doesn't make sense. No comment from Goku, the Kias, Gohan or anyone else on Buu "supposed" powerup, nor does the guidebooks/Anime mention anything of the sort. So excuse me for being dismissive on this topic.
Image

User avatar
mAcChaos
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1869
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by mAcChaos » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:41 pm

That's because Super Buu took greater advantage from the same pool of power. Fat Buu was more laid back and didn't except when he got really angry.
[i]"I have yet to show you, young warrior, what I'm truly capable of."[/i] - Cell

User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3411
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:10 am

I prefer to look at Fat Boo as someone who could never access Super Boo's power without splitting. So, Fat Boo only has a certain amount of power he can utilize before he has to expel his evil entity. Super Boo's able to bring out the majority of Majin Boo's power with ease because he has a more powerful body and better control of himself. With that, Fat Boo doesn't need to be equal to Super Boo, mainly because he'd never be able to use that power in his particular form, anyway, so it wouldn't matter.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

Axiom
Banned
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:24 am

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by Axiom » Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:13 am

mAcChaos wrote:That's because Super Buu took greater advantage from the same pool of power. Fat Buu was more laid back and didn't except when he got really angry.
Uh...sure. By your own admission, this would mean Goku was stronger than Evil Buu, thus Pure Buu was stronger than them both. I'm ok with that.

User avatar
mAcChaos
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1869
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by mAcChaos » Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:34 am

Axiom wrote:
mAcChaos wrote:That's because Super Buu took greater advantage from the same pool of power. Fat Buu was more laid back and didn't except when he got really angry.
Uh...sure. By your own admission, this would mean Goku was stronger than Evil Buu, thus Pure Buu was stronger than them both. I'm ok with that.
Which one is Evil Buu and Pure Buu again? Why would Goku be stronger.
[i]"I have yet to show you, young warrior, what I'm truly capable of."[/i] - Cell

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8881
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:35 am

Don't mind the Goku fanboy.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3411
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:35 am

Evil Boo is Super Boo and Pure Boo is Kid Boo.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

User avatar
Son Edo
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 417
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:35 am
Location: Australia

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by Son Edo » Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:39 am

Super Boo had a body more suited to battle and Piccolo said to Trunks and Goten that everything about Super was definitely greater than before.

I'm just reminding everybody about the confirmed statements between the two.

Although, this thread sounds like an excuse to have Gogeta much more stronger than everybody else
Last edited by Son Edo on Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
mAcChaos
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1869
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by mAcChaos » Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:42 am

Son Edo wrote:Super Boo had a body more suited to battle and Piccolo said to Trunks and Goten that everything about Super was definitely greater than before.

I'm just reminding everybody about the confired statements between the two.

Although, this thread sounds like an excuse to have Gogeta much more stronger than everybody else
The way I look at it, Super Buu and Fat Buu have the same power, but Super Buu uses it more efficiently.

Fat Buu is generally unfocused, except for when he's mad, but he has the same amount of power to draw on if he wanted to. Whereas Super Buu uses a greater portion of it more often and his body is made for battle.
[i]"I have yet to show you, young warrior, what I'm truly capable of."[/i] - Cell

User avatar
Kamiccolo9
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10371
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:32 pm
Location: Regensburg, Germany

Re: Full Power Fat Buu = Super Buu?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:45 am

Son Edo wrote: Although, this thread sounds like an excuse to have Gogeta much more stronger than everybody else
What are you talking about? No one has mentioned Gogeta.
Champion of the 1st Kanzenshuu Short Story Tenkaichi Budokai
Kamiccolo9's Kompendium of Short Stories
Cipher wrote:If Vegeta does not kill Gohan, I will stop illegally streaming the series.
Malik_DBNA wrote:
Scarz wrote:Malik, stop. People are asking me for lewd art of possessed Bra (with Vegeta).
"Achievement Unlocked: Rule 34"

Locked