Where the Hell does the Trunks who killed Cell come from?

[johnboy1]

Doing my own analysis:


Timeline 1: The unmolested progression of events. Goku teleports in and kills Freeza. He then dies of high cholesterol. Androids 17 and 18 kill everyone else. Trunks goes to the past and helps defeat the androids in some way that we are unfamiliar with, then returns. Cell kills Trunks and steals the time machine.

Timeline 2: Trunks kills Freeza. Goku lives. The androids (we don't know which ones) are destroyed without much incident. Trunks returns to his future in Timeline 1 to be killed by Cell.

Timeline 3: Cell arrives a year before Trunks. The story progresses as we see in the main timeline.

Timeline 4: Follows Timeline 1 until Trunks returns from Timeline 3 after Cell's defeat. Now much stronger due to Cell's involvement in Timeline 3, he is able to kill Cell and prevent him from going to the past.


Okay, I'm having a bit of a logic block here: Where the Hell did the Trunks from Timeline 4 come from? Future Trunks was killed by Cell, Cell went to the past, and then had run-ins with what otherwise would have been that same Trunks. Then that Trunks went back to his timeline... which should have been Timeline 1, because the change caused by his returning obviously didn't happen until after he left. Yet he doesn't run into the Trunks who had an easier time of it, so things are obviously different, but what caused that timeline to come into existence? The events of the main timeline couldn't have done that, because they had deviated from Trunks's future well before that point. We basically have a character and a timeline that spring from nowhere. Did the fact that Trunks returned to the future with an alternate experience automatically cause a new timeline to form, as a way to compensate for that fact that he presumably appeared at the same location and instant that the Trunks returning from Timeline 2 would have?

My head hurts.

[rereboy]

Timeline 1: original timeline. Trunks travel back creating Timeline 2 ; (read after reading Timeline 2): After returning, Trunks defeats the androids, probably with the remote. But Cell awakens and kills Trunks. Cell travels back in time.

Timeline 2: timeline born out of Trunks time travel. Its events differ from Timeline 1 after the arrival of Freeza. They somehow defeat the androids thanks to Trunks and his help, probably using the remote to shut them off. Trunks returns to his own Timeline, probably with the remote to shut the androids off.

Timeline 3: timeline created by Cell's time travel. This timeline differs in events from Timeline 2 after the arrival of Cell, which is some time before the arrival of Freeza, but the differences are only noticeable after Cell reveals himself. Its important to note that this Timeline is created from Timeline 2, not Timeline 1, hence why it includes the different events of Timeline 2 with the added interference of Cell. This is the main timeline, the one we see in the series. Cell is killed by Gohan and Trunks returns home.

Timeline 4: timeline created by Trunks' attempt to return to Timeline 1 from Timeline 3. Since he tried to return to a point in time before Cell had time travelled, which created Timeline 3, the return of Trunks creates a brand new Timeline so that the paradox is resolved. This is why and how different Timelines are created, by the way. But they only are created when the time travel creates a paradox. Its possible to simply travel between Timelines as long as it doesn't create a paradox. For example, when Trunks returns home after warning about the androids and then simply returns later to that timeline to help against them, there's no temporal paradox, because the timeline already existed and Trunks didn't travel to a problematic moment in time. So that doesn't create a paradox nor a new Timeline. Anyway, like I was saying, Trunks attempt to return creates a new Timeline, Timeline 4. In this one, Trunks is strong enough to kill the androids and Cell with his power.

[Kamiccolo9]

Doesn't the Chozenshuu cut out timeline 4?

[freezamite]

Except for the androids being killed with the remote and the explanation about the second timeline, I agree with rereboy.
The second timeline wasn't resolved in terms of what happened to both the androids and Cell, and we were never given a clue about what happened there unless I missed something.

[rereboy]

Except for the androids being killed with the remote, I agree with rereboy.

Its only a possibility for how they were able to defeat them without Trunks being strong enough to defeat Cell.

[freezamite]

Except for the androids being killed with the remote, I agree with rereboy.

Its only a possibility for how they were able to defeat them without Trunks being strong enough to defeat Cell.

But Trunks didn't know anything about that remote, in fact, the remote they use is the one Bulma builds thanks to the Android maps they found on the lab.

Since future androids were weaker than present androids, and Cell had absorbed nearly every single human out there, it's possible for him to defeat the androids and still be weaker than Cell's first form with absorbed people. I think that the easiest explanation is the best one in this case.

[rereboy]

But Trunks didn't know anything about that remote, in fact, the remote they use is the one Bulma builds thanks to the Android maps they found on the lab.

Since future androids were weaker than present androids, and Cell had absorbed nearly every single human out there, it's possible for him to defeat the androids and still be weaker than Cell's first form with absorbed people. I think that the easiest explanation is the best one in this case.

I know, but its entirely possible that the gang, in a attempt to figure out a way to defeat the androids, eventually go back to the lab to see if they can find anything and find the blueprints.

[freezamite]

But Trunks didn't know anything about that remote, in fact, the remote they use is the one Bulma builds thanks to the Android maps they found on the lab.

Since future androids were weaker than present androids, and Cell had absorbed nearly every single human out there, it's possible for him to defeat the androids and still be weaker than Cell's first form with absorbed people. I think that the easiest explanation is the best one in this case.

I know, but its entirely possible that the gang, in a attempt to figure out a way to defeat the androids, eventually go back to the lab to see if they can find anything and find the blueprints.

Well, in fact I have to retract about what I said here. I made the mistake of assuming that future Trunks got back to the future as he did on the 3rd timeline, but since those actions were already influenced by Cell what you say is perfectly possible also.
The 2nd timeline is so obscure that nearly every plausible explanation is possible, so it's more a matter of tastes than anything else.

Regards!

[B]

Dear lord. there are three, possibly more things I don't get.

1) Cell traveling back in time a year before Trunks results in the main timeline/Timeline 3. I'm following everything until right here. What happens when a year goes by and Trunks arrives to kill Freeza in Timeline 3; wouldn't that create a new timeline? It's not a problem in Timeline 2, where supposedly there's no Cell...
2) What timeline does the Trunks who comes back to Timeline 3 when the three years are up come from?
3) Timeline 1/?/Main Series Future Trunks leaves Timeline 3 after the Cell Games and creates Timeline 4. So... the scene when Trunks is running towards Bulma at the end of the Cell arc... this is Timeline 4, and the Bulma Timeline 1 is... left alone forever wondering what happened?

EDIT: This is so confusing but I think this topic's original question is my #2; can't be sure!

[RandomGuy96]

I still am kind of amazed that Trunks got to kill both Freeza and Cell. He got a pretty good deal compared to most characters.

[johnboy1]

1) Cell traveling back in time a year before Trunks results in the main timeline/Timeline 3. I'm following everything until right here. What happens when a year goes by and Trunks arrives to kill Freeza in Timeline 3; wouldn't that create a new timeline? It's not a problem in Timeline 2, where supposedly there's no Cell...

We have to assume that the Time Machine doesn't just go from time to time, but can also jump between timelines. It's the only way the Cell arc makes any sense whatsoever.

[rereboy]

Dear lord. there are three, possibly more things I don't get.

1) Cell traveling back in time a year before Trunks results in the main timeline/Timeline 3. I'm following everything until right here. What happens when a year goes by and Trunks arrives to kill Freeza in Timeline 3; wouldn't that create a new timeline? It's not a problem in Timeline 2, where supposedly there's no Cell...
2) What timeline does the Trunks who comes back to Timeline 3 when the three years are up come from?
3) Timeline 1/?/Main Series Future Trunks leaves Timeline 3 after the Cell Games and creates Timeline 4. So... the scene when Trunks is running towards Bulma at the end of the Cell arc... this is Timeline 4, and the Bulma Timeline 1 is... left alone forever wondering what happened?

1) When a Timeline is created based on another Timeline, everything is "duplicated". For example, we end up with one Goku in one timeline and another Goku in another. Follow me? Ok. Well, Timeline 3 is based on Timeline 2. And Timeline 2 already had Trunks' presence and changes in it. Meaning he is "duplicated" just like everything else. He is part of it.

2) Like I said, he is "duplicated", rather then an arrival from somewhere. He is a duplication of the Trunks that created Timeline 2. But despite that he still has a functional Time Machine. So he can exit that Timeline and even create new ones.

3) Cell probably killed Trunks in Timeline 1 around the same time that the Cell in Timeline 4 appears in front of Trunks. By then Bulma already knew that Trunks was back and that he had defeated the androids. The only difference is that Cell manages to kill Trunks in Timeline 1 but not in Timeline 4. Therefore, in Timeline 1 Bulma is left to mourn Trunks after Cell leaves or is also killed by Cell. Either way, Timeline 1 has no villains left in it, either androids or Cell, but Trunks and possibly Bulma are dead.

[jjgp1112]

My theory:

Timeline 1) The original timeline. Androids kill everyone, yadda yadda yadda, Trunks eventually destroys the Androids and gets killed by Cell.
Timeline 2) The timeline that T1 Trunks travels back to where he kills Frieza and warns everyone about the Androids. He returns to help 3 years later and then goes back to his own timeline. My theory is that Movie 7 happens during this timeline after they take care of Androids 17 & 18.
Timeline 3) Main series.The timeline created by Cell traveling back to 3 year before Trunks' arrival (or however long it was). My theory here is that T1 Trunks' original time travel created two interwoven timelines that can't exist without each other, and Cell traveling back to the past of Timeline 2 caused a paradox that created another future timeline since the future of timeline 3 was Trunks traveling to it. The events as we know in the series unfold.
Timeline 4) The future where the Trunks that traveled to Timeline 3 came from. The events are identical to Timeline 1 except Trunks kills Cell and lives happily ever after.

[Saiga]

Wow, rereboy, that is the probably the best explanation for the timelines I've seen. I didn't really have a problem with them, but that makes it so much clearer to me. So thanks!

[rereboy]

Wow, rereboy, that is the probably the best explanation for the timelines I've seen. I didn't really have a problem with them, but that makes it so much clearer to me. So thanks!

I think its the one that makes most sense. It doesn't explain absolutely everything, there is at least a small plothole, but any other explanation that tries to fix that plothole becomes farfetched, so I prefer to accept this explanation and treat that plothole as a plothole.

[B]

1) When a Timeline is created based on another Timeline, everything is "duplicated". For example, we end up with one Goku in one timeline and another Goku in another. Follow me? Ok. Well, Timeline 3 is based on Timeline 2. And Timeline 2 already had Trunks' presence and changes in it. Meaning he is "duplicated" just like everything else. He is part of it.

Okay, but Cell goes back a year before Trunks arrives to kill Freeza and Cold. Cell, our Cell, the Cell that we see in the manga, is from Timeline 1. The simple act of being wherever he ended up created Timeline 3. Trunks hasn't been to Timeline 3 yet. Trunks is from Timeline 1 and then shows up in Timeline 2. Nothing has been altered in Timeline 3 because Cell just created it. Just using this logic, wouldn't Trunks arriving to kill Freeza result in another timeline that we never see? With respect to the way the timelines are usually labeled, we'd then have Timeline 5: Trunks arrives to kill Freeza, and we literally don't know what happens to this timeline beyond that.

But, my main point in regards to what you've said is just that: Cell arrived in a time before Trunks has tampered with anything. So Trunks coming back should also screw up... something.

2) Like I said, he is "duplicated", rather then an arrival from somewhere. He is a duplication of the Trunks that created Timeline 2. But despite that he still has a functional Time Machine. So he can exit that Timeline and even create new ones.

I feel like I'm not remembering something. So Main Series/Timeline 1 Trunks, after warning everyone in the Main Series/Timeline 3 about the Androids, goes back to Timeline 1, fiddles with his machine, comes back to Timeline 3, finds everything in chaos, the Cell arc continues, and then our Trunks creates Timeline 4. Would you say I have that right?

3) Cell probably killed Trunks in Timeline 1 around the same time that the Cell in Timeline 4 appears in front of Trunks. By then Bulma already knew that Trunks was back and that he had defeated the androids. The only difference is that Cell manages to kill Trunks in Timeline 1 but not in Timeline 4. Therefore, in Timeline 1 Bulma is left to mourn Trunks after Cell leaves or is also killed by Cell. Either way, Timeline 1 has no villains left in it, either androids or Cell, but Trunks and possibly Bulma are dead.

I think I am starting to understand the "duplication" logic. The Trunks that arrives to kill Freeza and Cold in both Timelines 2 and 3 is from Timeline 1, yes? Jumping from 1 to 2 is self-explanatory, but it happens a second time simply because Timeline 3 is there via Cell. Because a new timeline exists, Trunks has to show up to kill Freeza, because that's officially what happens in history? I hope what I am saying makes sense.

[GsTvo]

About what Trunks are you talking about? I understand this:

Cell (the one who Gohan SSJ2 kills, lets say Timeline 1) comes from a different timeline to the original story (Timeline 1) and Future Trunks time (lets say Timeline 2). In that timeline (Timeline 3) #17 and #18 had been eliminated by Trunks (Timeline 3), after that, he decides go to the past (Timeline 1) to warn Goku and company of the future appearance of androids. However, when he was ready to go on the Time Machine, Cell (Timeline 3) shows up and kill him. Then Cell jump into the TM and go to the past (the time machine was already scheduled to go to Timeline 1).

The Timeline 4 is the one where the Cell who fights against Future Trunks (Timeline 2) wants to go (in search of #17 and #18, the past), so there's all, No?

[Marco Polo]

I liked rereboy's explanation but thought the drawing was a bit unclear, so here is an alternate drawing and alternate description of rereboy's theory:



Note: A paradox occurs when you travel to a time which pre-dates a time travel event (either your own time travel event or someone else's).

1: Future Trunks goes back in time. This is a paradox, so Timeline 2 is created as a copy of Timeline 1.

2: After changing the events of Timeline 2, Future Trunks returns to Timeline 1. This is not a paradox.

3: Future Cell kills Future Trunks and goes back in time. This is a paradox, so Timeline 3 is created as a copy of Timeline 2 (meaning there is a copy of Future Trunks in Timeline 3 hanging around with Goku and co.).

4: After changing the events of Timeline 3, this copy of Future Trunks returns to Timeline 1. This is a paradox (his return pre-dates Future Cell's time travel event), so Timeline 4 is created as a copy of Timeline 1. This copy of Future Trunks kills Future Cell.

[rereboy]

...

I'll try to explain it a little better.

Timeline 1 and Timeline 2 are pretty simple and I think you understood those.

The problems start to arise with Timeline 3.

Well, like I said, this Timeline is created by Cell traveling back in time to Timeline 2 from Timeline 1 after killing Trunks. If Cell had traveled to a point in time in Timeline 2 that didn't interfere with his own existence, for example, after Trunks had returned to Timeline 1, this voyage wouldn't create a paradox and it wouldn't create a new Timeline. But he traveled to a point where he would interfere with his own existence. By this I mean that the fact that Cell is even there in the first place, depends on the exact events of Timeline 2. So, if Cell changed the events of Timeline 2 he would be changing events that put him there in the first place. That's a paradox. Get it?

So what happens when he does that? A new timeline, exactly like Timeline 2 appears and Cell appears on that Timeline instead of actually on Timeline 2. This Timeline, Timeline 3, like I said is exactly like Timeline 2. Its events, past and future are exactly the same. Everything was duplicated. Everything. The only difference is that Cell is now in it. And from that the Timeline will start to have differences in its events.

Now, something that may cause confusion is the fact that Future Trunks is also in it. But you need to remember that this Trunks only exists because he is part of the events of Timeline 2. Like I said, everything in Timeline 2 was copied, duplicated. That includes everything that happened in the past of that Timeline and everything in the future of that Timeline. And that includes the presence of Trunks. That's why he is there, because the events are copied, duplicated, just like everything else. Like I said, the only difference in the events are the ones that are caused by the only thing that is on Timeline 3 that isn't on Timeline 2, which is the Cell who had timetravelled. That's the ONLY reason why the events don't play out exactly the same, because Cell influences them. Otherwise, every event is the same. Get it?

But, like I said, this Trunks, despite being there only because he is a duplication, still has a working Time Machine. He uses it to return to Timeline 1 but, once again, we have a case where a character goes to a point in time of a Timeline from which his existence depends. If Trunks changed the events on Timeline 1, it would change the events that made him exactly the way he is now. Therefore his travel creates a duplicate of Timeline 1, exactly the same to Timeline 1, but with the changes imprinted on it by this Trunks.

I liked rereboy's explanation but thought the drawing was a bit unclear, so here is an alternate drawing and alternate description of rereboy's theory:



Note: A paradox occurs when you travel to a time which pre-dates a time travel event (either your own time travel event or someone else's).

1: Future Trunks goes back in time. This is a paradox, so Timeline 2 is created as a copy of Timeline 1.

2: After changing the events of Timeline 2, Future Trunks returns to Timeline 1. This is not a paradox.

3: Future Cell goes back in time. This is a paradox, so Timeline 3 is created as a copy of Timeline 2 (meaning there is a copy of Future Trunks in Timeline 3 hanging around with Goku and co.).

4: After changing the events of Timeline 3, this copy of Future Trunks returns to Timeline 1. This is a paradox (his return pre-dates Future Cell's time travel event), so Timeline 4 is created as a copy of Timeline 1. This copy of Future Trunks kills Future Cell.

Exactly.

EDIT: actually you made a small mistake. I fixed it:

[jjgp1112]

Rereboy, I agree with your explanation, though I think the Trunks that travels there is from a duplicate of Timeline 1 created by Cell's time traveling. Like you said, Trunks traveling even further back creates a copy of Timeline 2, but since Timeline 2 is created by Timeline 1, a fourth timeline is produced by proxy, which contains the Future Trunks we see in the show who traveled back to timeline 3 and eventually returns and kills Cell and the Androids.

Or I'm an idiot and that's exactly what you're saying and I'm just not following.