When Goku arrived on Namek (Power Level)

[Duo]

Was his power level 90,000 or 180,000? It's long been...pretty obvious that it's 90,000 or so, but another user in another thread called this into question (saying he had to be 180,000) and the thread was effectively derailed over it.

So here's how I remember it. Goku asks Ginyu to watch his scouter, he starts out around 90,000, then starts using the Kaio-ken. At the end (and we know that the Kaio-ken doubles the users power) he's at 180,000. Anything particularly unclear about this scene?

[Kamiccolo9]

From "The Evolution of Goku's Power Level,"

It's in the top right, and says 90 thousand.

Besides, it would of been kinda pointless to use the Kaio-Ken to reach 180 thousand if he was capable of doing so without it. It's not exactly a safe technique.

[ABED]

Fine, mea culpa, it's 90k. Then are Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 redundant?

I know the daizenshuu are "official" but how much of it was created by Toriyama and how much did he just sign off on? This seems like something someone extrapolated. Everyone and everything I've ever read until just recently stated the power level was 180k. My problem with all of this is how off the charts everything goes just in order to catch up to Freeza. Take the numbers out of the equation, it seems ridiculous that Vegeta should get stronger than Goku after having his ass kicked by a subordinate. I know Goku has the Kaio-ken but assuming he didn't have that attack, Vegeta's stronger? It doesn't make sense.

[Saiga]

Fine, mea culpa, it's 90k. Then are Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 redundant?

I know the daizenshuu are "official" but how much of it was created by Toriyama and how much did he just sign off on? This seems like something someone extrapolated.

Not exactly redundant, but they do refer to the same thing, as Kaio-ken x2 is the lowest application of the technique.

[ABED]

Fine, mea culpa, it's 90k. Then are Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 redundant?

I know the daizenshuu are "official" but how much of it was created by Toriyama and how much did he just sign off on? This seems like something someone extrapolated.

Not exactly redundant, but they do refer to the same thing, as Kaio-ken x2 is the lowest application of the technique.

Then why have him use Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2? Why not just call it the same thing?

[Kamiccolo9]

. Then are Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 redundant?

Kinda. The technique itself is called Kaio-Ken, and the most basic level doubles power. The "x2" moniker came only when the Kaio-Ken x3 was about to be used. I imagine Toriyama thought it would sound strange going straight from "Kaio-Ken" to "Kaio-Ken times 3." But the "Kaio-Ken" was established in the narration of the manga to double Goku's power before the x3 was introduced.

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P1.1
Narrator: “Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-Ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!"

[Saiga]

It wasn't called Kaio-ken x2 until Kaio-ken x3 was introduced, which was Goku's invention. It's implied that Kaio only ever intended it to be a x2 boost, not a variable one, so there was no need for multipliers at that stage.

[ABED]

. Then are Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 redundant?

Kinda. The technique itself is called Kaio-Ken, and the most basic level doubles power. The "x2" moniker came only when the Kaio-Ken x3 was about to be used. I imagine Toriyama thought it would sound strange going straight from "Kaio-Ken" to "Kaio-Ken times 3." But the "Kaio-Ken" was established in the narration of the manga to double Goku's power before the x3 was introduced.

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P1.1
Narrator: “Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-Ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!"

Thanks, can't believe that went past my notice.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

It wasn't called Kaio-ken x2 until Kaio-ken x3 was introduced, which was Goku's invention. It's implied that Kaio only ever intended it to be a x2 boost, not a variable one, so there was no need for multipliers at that stage.

Kaio could never master the technique, so of course he would never take it above the two fold version. That doesn't mean he never intended it to go beyond that when he developed it...

[Saiga]

It wasn't called Kaio-ken x2 until Kaio-ken x3 was introduced, which was Goku's invention. It's implied that Kaio only ever intended it to be a x2 boost, not a variable one, so there was no need for multipliers at that stage.

Kaio could never master the technique, so of course he would never take it above the two fold version. That doesn't mean he never intended it to go beyond that when he developed it...

I was actually remembering Budokai 3 dialogue that said that Goku took it further than Kaio had envisioned or something to that effect, I thought that was in the manga as well but it doesn't seem like it. My bad!

[roscaifed]

Since Kaio-ken is used for short, quick outbursts of energy, it seems weird that Goku would power up into that state and then stay in it for a length of time. A showcase of his power to Ginyu wouldn't be worth the strain on his body would it? That to me suggests that Goku didn't use Kaio-ken and simply powered up, and his fighting power is actually 180,000 at that point

[Saiga]

Since Kaio-ken is used for short, quick outbursts of energy, it seems weird that Goku would power up into that state and then stay in it for a length of time. A showcase of his power to Ginyu wouldn't be worth the strain on his body would it? That to me suggests that Goku didn't use Kaio-ken and simply powered up, and his fighting power is actually 180,000 at that point

He called out "Kaio-ken!" and had the Kaio-ken aura. Also, at this stage Goku says he can handle up to Kaio-ken x10, so presumably using it for only x2 isn't very stressful any more.

[Kamiccolo9]

Since Kaio-ken is used for short, quick outbursts of energy, it seems weird that Goku would power up into that state and then stay in it for a length of time. A showcase of his power to Ginyu wouldn't be worth the strain on his body would it? That to me suggests that Goku didn't use Kaio-ken and simply powered up, and his fighting power is actually 180,000 at that point

Nah, he's using the Kaio-Ken. He calls out the attack, and then his power starts rising.

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P14.6-7
Context: as Goku starts using the Kaio-Ken
Ginyu: "Ni... 90,000...?! 100,000... 110,000... I'm... impossible... it can't be... It's st... still rising...!"

Chapter: 285 (DBZ 91), P1.2-3, P2.2
Context: as Goku continues to use the Kaio-ken
Ginyu: "Twe... 120,000... 130,000... 140,000... It's sti... sti... still rising... !!!! It... it can't be... 160,000... "Eigh... 180,000...?! Un…unbelievable…Th-this is your true power…?!!”

[rereboy]

Then are Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 redundant?

Yes, regular Kaioken is Kaioken x2. The term x2 was just introduced in the manga so that the whole system of x3, x4 and so on fit better and we knew exactly which Kaioken was being used.

[ABED]

What I find ridiculous is when the power levels start going up greater than someone's base level. I bought Vegeta going from 18k to 24k, but it's hard to swallow that he goes from getting trashed by Reacoom to strong enough to cause Freeza to struggle. Hell, I bought Goku going from 180k to 300k when that's what I thought happened but when the 300k was revealed to be a translation error, it was just ridiculous.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Since Kaio-ken is used for short, quick outbursts of energy, it seems weird that Goku would power up into that state and then stay in it for a length of time. A showcase of his power to Ginyu wouldn't be worth the strain on his body would it? That to me suggests that Goku didn't use Kaio-ken and simply powered up, and his fighting power is actually 180,000 at that point

Ignoring all the points above about how he called out the attack, he's only using the Kaio-ken x2. He says he could probably handle the ten fold level of the technique at that point, so the basic Kaio-ken x2 shouldn't be that straining on his body.

[rereboy]

What I find ridiculous is when the power levels start going up greater than someone's base level. I bought Vegeta going from 18k to 24k, but it's hard to swallow that he goes from getting trashed by Reacoom to strong enough to cause Freeza to struggle. Hell, I bought Goku going from 180k to 300k when that's what I thought happened but when the 300k was revealed to be a translation error, it was just ridiculous.

In truth, he didn't get rid of Jhesse all that easy. Its only after he sleeps that he is able to resist Freeza. He probably hadn't slept for days so that must have made quite a difference.

[ABED]

What I find ridiculous is when the power levels start going up greater than someone's base level. I bought Vegeta going from 18k to 24k, but it's hard to swallow that he goes from getting trashed by Reacoom to strong enough to cause Freeza to struggle. Hell, I bought Goku going from 180k to 300k when that's what I thought happened but when the 300k was revealed to be a translation error, it was just ridiculous.

In truth, he didn't get rid of Jhesse all that easy. Its only after he sleeps that he is able to resist Freeza. He probably hadn't slept for days so that must have made quite a difference.

He toys with Jheese.
Is the sleep thing speculation or canon? I assume the senzu replenished his energy, or are you assuming it was a caffeine boost?

[rereboy]

He toys with Jheese.
Is the sleep thing speculation or canon? I assume the senzu replenished his energy, or are you assuming it was a caffeine boost?

Jhesse is around 45.000 and he survives several hard hits from Vegeta who should be at least 300.000. And even Ginyu-Goku despite being something like 25.000 survived his attacks, even though it badly injured him. Nothing is ever stated about Senzu beans replacing the need to sleep (sleep is not just about replacing energy, we need to sleep even if we don't get out of bed) and we know that Vegeta was alone and constantly on alert all the time he was on Namek. It all seems to fit nicely.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Gohan does mention that Vegeta was tired for not sleeping for days.

Vegeta tells Jheese his power is "constantly rising", so I'm guessing it's more about that than the power nap. I don't think the nap was that long, anyway.

rere, which attacks were Jheese tanking? From what I remember, Vegeta pummeled him with ease before disintegrating him.