Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Captain Space]

Once again: All of this is disproven by the simple fact that Goku says he's weaker than Super Buu. It's...not arguable. He says it.

EDIT: Blargh, I misread some of your post, disregard this.

[Alex9196]

my favorite power level list i have seen so far says this:

goku ssj3

40.000.000.000

gotenks ssj3

54.000.000.000

mystic gohan

70.000.000.000

i think this is pretty acurate, so in my opinion goku is not that for from gotenks but gohan would be nearly double his strengh.

[Truhan]

Does this mean that Gogeta has a power level of 2.500.000.000 as a SSJ? Because scaling it back 50 times would end up with 50.000.000. Now it's up for us to find a good fusion formula to deduce Goku and Vegeta's power levels at that point, if someone hasn't tried that already xD

[Alex9196]

that cant be right. so normal gogeta would be less than half of max freeza? (namek saga) because he had a power level of 120.000.000

[Truhan]

Oh, sorry. I meant how much it improves upon a characters' base power level (i.e. multiplier), not power level, which is still strange.

[h0kuten]

Base Fusions have never been depicted as powerful, only in non cannon material. After the Frieza Saga, base becomes irrelevant, I see no reason why Base Fusions wouldn't be irrelevant either.

As for the people trying to find proper levels for Goku and Vegeta, maybe this can work?

Buu

Goku
~Base 90,000,000
~Ssj 4,500,000,000
~Ssj2 9,000,000,000
~Ssj3 36,000,000,000

Fat Buu
~Full Power 15,000,000,000

Gotenks Pre-ROST
~Base 4,000,000,000
~Ssj 16,000,000,000

Gotenks Post-ROST
~Base 20,000,000,000
~Ssj 80,000,000,000
~Ssj3 320,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan
~Full Power 480,000,000,000

Battle of Gods

Goku
~Base 6,000,000,000
~Ssj 300,000,000,000
~Ssj2 600,000,000,000
~Ssj3 2,400,000,000,000

Vegeta
~Base 6,000,000,000
~Ssj 300,000,000,000
~Ssj2 600,000,000,000
~Enraged 3,000,000,000,000

EOZ

Goku
~Base 36,000,000,000
~Ssj 1,800,000,000,000
~Ssj2 3,600,000,000,000
~Ssj3 14,400,000,000,000

Vegeta
~Base 36,000,000,000
~Ssj 1,800,000,000,000
~Ssj2 3,600,000,000,000

Uub
~Calm 5
~Enraged 40,000,000,000

That's as accurate as I can make it? It makes it possible for Goku to keep improving while keeping the fusion and Gohan weaker and staying true to the feats of Battle of Gods without dismissing them for 'so and so' reasons.

[Alex9196]

i dont really know what you mean but i saw an interesting fusion formula a while back.

dance= b x 2 x 15
portara= (a + b) x 50

from the power level list this is from it states:

super gogeta
127.500.000.000
vegetto
9.250.000.000
super vegetto
475.000.000.000

[Captain Space]

Speaking of off-topic, we have a hypothetical power levels thread.

Does this mean that Gogeta has a power level of 2.500.000.000 as a SSJ? Because scaling it back 50 times would end up with 50.000.000. Now it's up for us to find a good fusion formula to deduce Goku and Vegeta's power levels at that point, if someone hasn't tried that already xD

Actually my point was more that the Gogeta, Broly and Cooler PLs are from V-Jump scans and as such probably aren't anything remotely close to canon.

Base Fusions have never been depicted as powerful, only in non cannon material. After the Freeza Saga, base becomes irrelevant, I see no reason why Base Fusions wouldn't be irrelevant either.

Except base Gotenks being considered more impressive than SSJ Goten/Trunks, and a hypothetical Goku/Gohan Potara fusion being said to be able to beat Buutenks in base.

[rereboy]

It's fan speculation to assume Nail gave him some 'hidden potential' increase.

It's blatantly stated by Piccolo & Trunks that Gotenks' Base power surpassed his previous Super Saiyan.

As for Goku, it could have taken him 7 years to unlock Ssj2 & Ssj3, considering Goku would be the first to unlock Ssj3, it's easy to assume 'how' and 'why' it took so long to do. People spit all over unlocking 2 Ssj states like it shouldn't be a time consuming process.

It took Goku all of Dragonball and a majority of Z just to unlock Super Saiyan, but taking 7 years to unlock 2 new additional transformations isn't believable?

You said there was no reasonable explanations and I gave you one.

No, it's not blatant at all.

That argument makes no sense. I told you what it took for Goku just to improve that much in extraordinary training conditions because the new stuff might want us believe that he surpassed Gohan in 6 months with regular training.

[h0kuten]

The problem with your reason is it's nothing more than fan speculation, and no, I won't accept it over everything else just because you 'gave me something', it makes no sense.

It is blatant. Both Piccolo and the kids imply Gotenks Base Post surpassed his previous Ssj. There are no ands, ifs, or buts, about it, it happened, its said and done.

See my previous point

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The problem with your reason is it's nothing more than fan speculation, and no, I won't accept it over everything else just because you 'gave me something', it makes no sense.

It is blatant. Both Piccolo and the kids imply Gotenks Base Post surpassed his previous Ssj. There are no ands, ifs, or buts, about it, it happened, its said and done.

See my previous point

It is very possible that Piccolo thought this because he was comparing base Gotenks with a supressed Evil Boo, during a gag scene. As for Trunks, he is an arrogant 8-year-old kid, I wouldn't trust everything he says, especially when he's been wrong before.

[rereboy]

The problem with your reason is it's nothing more than fan speculation, and no, I won't accept it over everything else just because you 'gave me something', it makes no sense.

It's not fan speculation to say that a fusion has higher power and higher potential than the people that made the fusion. Its a logical, reasonable and likely interpretation of what we see in the manga, with the opposite making very little sense. You want to argue that people like Vegtto and Gotenks don't have higher potential than Goku, Vegeta, Goten and Trunks? What sense does that make? And Piccolo is also a fusion, so...

The problem here is that your definition of reasonable explanation is that it has to be something that you agree with.

It is blatant. Both Piccolo and the kids imply Gotenks Base Post surpassed his previous Ssj. There are no ands, ifs, or buts, about it, it happened, its said and done.

Something implied is never blatant, sorry. And just because you interpret it that way, doesn't mean that its the only interpretation possible or even the most likely or logical, especially since the scene and even the battle is filled with comedic intent and what Piccolo says about the kids maybe being able to do it is immediately contradicted, proving that his guesses are off in that scene.

See my previous point

What I see is that it doesn't seem to be really worthwhile to discuss things with you.

[Truhan]

I've been tweaking my theory a bit, by using the numbers of those scans, and I guess that Gogeta's served as inspiration for a multiplier, which is that of a Super Fusion. If Fusion should be an increase in power as big as a SSJ transformation from the individual, then a Super Fusion is 2500x the increase. SSJ3 Fusion would be 20000x the increase. For Fusion Dance:

Base = 50x the base power of a saiyan, which is the same as a SSJ transformation
SSJ = 2500x the base power of a saiyan, which is 25 times more powerful than SSJ2
SSJ3 = 20000x the base power of a saiyan, which is 50 times more powerful than SSJ3

Where would I place Majin Buu in this? I decided to go with the theory that Super and Kid Buu could be equals, and that Gotenks and Goku would match them:

Buff Buu (40000) = Evil Buu (40000) > Super Buu (20000) = Kid Buu (20000) > Fat Buu (5000) > Mr. Buu (2500), with the numbers being multipliers as well. It would mean that Buff Buu is 2 times stronger than Super Buu, who would be 4 times stronger than Fat Buu, while Kid Buu would be 8 times stronger than Mr. Buu. If we use how much stronger than Fat Buu they are, because when you take Fat Buu out of Super Buu you get Kid Buu, and the latter remains the same (1x the increase/decrease), we have:

Evil Buu = 8x stronger than Fat Buu
Super Buu = 4x times stronger than Fat Buu
Mr. Buu = 0.5x times stronger than Fat Buu

What do you get when you multiply their power increase by adding their forms into another?
Super Buu = Evil Buu + Mr. Buu, which is the same as saying that 8 times 0.5 equals 4.

NOTE: Goku would also be 50x stronger than Goten or Trunks for him to be a match for Kid Buu.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

It is very possible that Piccolo thought this because he was comparing base Gotenks with a suppressed Evil Boo, during a gag scene. As for Trunks, he is an arrogant 8-year-old kid, I wouldn't trust everything he says, especially when he's been wrong before.

The 'gag' scene is Gotenks' fight with Evil Boo. There is nothing funny about Chichi being killed, Goten wanting revenge, Trunks thinking Gotenks can now match Evil Boo base, and Piccolo thinking Gotenks has powered up vastly.

What does it matter if Trunks is 'arrogant'? Piccolo came to the same conclusion as him, separately.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What does it matter if Trunks is 'arrogant'? Piccolo came to the same conclusion as him, separately.

Piccolo came to that conclusion (during a gag scene), and he was wrong.

[Hugo Boss]

If Goku is the strongest, what is the need to specify saiyan and talk about others?

Perhaps something related to Beerus? The scene went to him just after Vegeta said he would be #1 above all.

There is nothing funny about Chichi being killed, Goten wanting revenge, Trunks thinking Gotenks can now match Evil Boo base, and Piccolo thinking Gotenks has powered up vastly.

I believe Trunks and Goten were wondering about how the fight would go before they go SS3 as Gotenks.

[dbgtFO]

No, I don't. Gotenks transforming to Super Saiyan or Goten and Trunks doing Super Fusion yields the same result. My theory does not disagree with that.

Then I guess I didn't understand your theory, sorry. Could you explain it differently?

Hmm.. how to put this..
As I said in my earlier post, I think their base states simply have far more room to improve upon than their SS states, thus their base fusion end up closing the gap a little on their SS form compared to an unfused Saiyan.

If we include the factor hidden power, to simplify my logic, it would look something like this:

Spoiler:

Goten: 10.
-SS: 500.
-Hidden power: 1,000.
Trunks: 10.
-SS: 500.
-Hidden Power: 1,000.

Gotenks: 5,000.
-SS: 10,000.

Gotenks ends up overall 20 times more powerful than what either of them, could manage on their own, but only 10 times stronger than either one's hidden power.
The hidden power part is not an off-shoot off Super Saiyan, but rather the natural state. I think their natural state should be capable of drawing out all that hidden power, but Super Saiyan is a faster way to do it, although ultimately inferior(that's how I view Ultimate Gohan too).
Fusion, Potara merging and Elder Kaioshin unlock help bring out that power to a much greater extent, than they've been capable of so far.

Of course it may just be overanalyzation to justify SS Gotenks < Base Gotenks post, but I prefer to think of it this way.
I hope I didn't make my theory too hard to understand

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

My theory involves "distractions".

Since Goten and Trunks were not equal before the RoSaT, and Trunks had to suppress to match Goten, thus creating a "distraction".

After the RoSaT, they were equal, thus causing no distractions and a more effective fusion, coupled with them individually getting stronger.

[h0kuten]

Nothing says the boys got stronger. PIccolo makes no distinction on them improving.

In order for Gotenks Base Post to surpass his previous Ssj, the boys would need too as well. This isn't the case, and is impossible.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Nothing says the boys got stronger. PIccolo makes no distinction on them improving.

In order for Gotenks Base Post to surpass his previous Ssj, the boys would need too as well. This isn't the case, and is impossible.

That's never stated.