Grade 3 - literally or relatively slower?

[Saturnine]

I like discussing this topic. Is Grade 3 literally slower than Grade 2 or regular Super Saiyan in your opinion?

In my opinion, basing it on one of the most established precepts of the Dragon Ball world (bigger ki means bigger strength and bigger speed, in proportion), I think that the "big muscles kill my speed" part is only applied after the ki has been augmented, not before it has. A simple matter of changing the order of the speed check. IMO it wouldn't make much sense for somebody to be like 2x or even 4x stronger than he was before powering up, but at the same time slower. So that's how I see things:

First you power up. Your ki becomes 4x larger than it was (an arbitrary number, let's use it for the sake of the point), and later due to the muscles your speed is cut. But it is cut from your current ki level-granted "should-be" speed, not to your previous speed afforded by your previous ki. I think it makes more sense that way. So:

SSj: Power 10, Speed 10
SSjG2: Power 20, Speed 18 - minor cut in speed due to the weight and musculature
SSjG3: Power 40, Speed anywhere from 18 to 24 - a severe cut in speed in any case.

So if we assume that Perfect Cell had power and speed balanced at 30, Trunks fulfills the criterion of being stronger in terms of power, but too slow to hit Cell. Thinking that Grade 3 actually makes the Saiyan slower than 10 feels like overkill in this situation. Not to mention Cell also defeated Super Vegeta without any effort, and Grade 2 was explicitly stated to increase speed by the guidebooks. So can't we extrapolate from this that Grade 3 isn't literally slower, but rather doesn't make you noticeably faster while it should?

To my knowledge, this way of thinking contradicts nothing, be it semantics or meritorics. Would you accept such an explanation?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Trunks: “He’s using a transformation that’s too concerned with power, so his speed can’t keep up…Cell himself is making the same mistake he pointed out to me…! He’s really lost it…”

When looking at that quote, it seems like your theory has basis. Cell has the power, but his speed isn't able to keep up with his power. From that standpoint, his speed staying the same makes sense.

Goku's quote makes it seem like it's decreasing his overall speed, though.

[Darkprince410]

The way Goku describes it when showing the form to Gohan in the Room of Spirit and Time makes it sound like it's not simply a matter of it not being as fast as it is strong, but that it is indeed hampering speed in total.

Goku: “I can’t win like this…Probably not…[ ] With my muscles swelled up like this, my power greatly increases, but it kills my speed. Huge power doesn’t mean anything if I can’t hit my opponent…And it uses up energy at too intense a rate. Balance-wise, regular Super Saiyan is best. I know that well enough…”

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

While the story implies Cell's Power-Weighted state is comparable to Grade 3, I suppose it's possible that both are somewhat different. Maybe the Grade 3 decreases the overall speed while Cell's Power-Weighted state maximizes power and leaves speed intact.

[emperior]

It's all wrong dude.
It's more like this:

Base: Power 5, Speed 5, Ki Consumption 5
SSJ: Power 10, Speed 10, Ki Consumption 10
Grade 2: Power 12, Speed 8, Ki Consumption 12
Grade 3: Power 14, Speed 6, Ki Consumption 14
FPSSJ: Power 10, Speed 10, Ki Consumption 5

with Ki consumption being how much ki you consume.

That's why Goku points out the basic SSJ is much more balanced and he decides to master it so that Ki consumption becomes less and so it becomes a lot better. This is my idea, and it should work the same for Cell.

[Saturnine]

It's all wrong dude.
It's more like this:

Base: Power 5, Speed 5, Ki Consumption 5
SSJ: Power 10, Speed 10, Ki Consumption 10
Grade 2: Power 12, Speed 8, Ki Consumption 12
Grade 3: Power 14, Speed 6, Ki Consumption 14
FPSSJ: Power 10, Speed 10, Ki Consumption 5

with Ki consumption being how much ki you consume.

That's why Goku points out the basic SSJ is much more balanced and he decides to master it so that Ki consumption becomes less and so it becomes a lot better. This is my idea, and it should work the same for Cell.

Yeah, right. Grade 3 being only 40% stronger than SSj1. Doing that so that SSj2's stated 2x looks plausible? Also, if in your opinion going from ki consumption of 10 to 5 and nothing else changing is "a lot better", then I don't know what to say. Hardly worth the hassle, you know? Going by your numbers, FPSSj should have a power of 14, a speed of 14 and a ki consumtption of 0 (which should also be the figure for base btw). But that's a whole another subject of debate.

I'll say though that you're plain wrong in your Grade 2 numbers - the Daizenshuu states explicitly that Grade 2 increases both power and speed relative to regular Super Saiyan.

On topic: like I said - when your ki increases, so does your speed. Grade 3's speed decrease is due to the features of the body, namely the unwieldy musculature. But the ki increase is still there, so I believe that part is still covered for anyone who transforms. The speed is indeed killed, but relative to what it should be judging by the ki.

The way Goku describes it when showing the form to Gohan in the Room of Spirit and Time makes it sound like it's not simply a matter of it not being as fast as it is strong, but that it is indeed hampering speed in total.

Goku: “I can’t win like this…Probably not…[ ] With my muscles swelled up like this, my power greatly increases, but it kills my speed. Huge power doesn’t mean anything if I can’t hit my opponent…And it uses up energy at too intense a rate. Balance-wise, regular Super Saiyan is best. I know that well enough…”

Well, you could argue that hampering speed in total is the same thing as not being as fast as it is strong This is a matter of interpreting the exact wording here, but I think my interpretation isn't contradictory either. Goku could as well have meant that the speed that should be afforded by the size of his ki is being killed. Also, Goku mentions balance. Super Saiyan is of course the best, as it has a 1:1 power-speed balance, just like it should be. Grade 3 would be like 2:1, which means that with a powerlevel of 4 billion you can't even hit a balanced opponent who has a powerevel of 3 billion, and therefore have no chance of defeating them. A situation we're all familiar with from the show.

Frankly I wouldn't have it any other way, as it is simply too preposterous to think that your muscles alone would more than negate an increase in speed given by say, a 4x increase of the ki. That would mean that if a Grade 3 guy was to be noticeably slower than a Grade 1 guy, his speed would have to be decreased at least 5-fold relative to his current ki. I find that significantly too drastic, especially in light of the fact that Grade 2 is explicitly stated to amplify the speed - which is in line with the whole "bigger ki = bigger speed" thing.

So even if you insist that Grade 3 is literally slower, then another question appears: is it slower than what? If Grade 2 increases speed over Grade 1 due to increasing the powerlevel, then why should we use Grade 1 as the reference point for Grade 3's supposed speed decrease anyway? Wouldn't it be enough if it decreased only relative to Grade 2? This is a nice question to discuss too.

Also, I've come up with a pretty illustrative parallel: Comapre this all to the Ozaru - their powerlevel increases 10-fold, but they've only been stated to "not be any slower than normal". Goku was able to dodge Ozaru Vegeta no worse than he could dodge his regular form. Which means that while the power increases 10 times, the speed remains unchanged - though from the perspective of the Ozaru the speed is indeed "decreased", because a base Saiyan with an equal powerlevel would be a bewildering 10 times faster. This still means Grade 3 is significantly flawed, even if the power increases 2x over Grade 2, because the speed doesn't change (or changes only a little bit in your direction of preference). But if even the Ozaru transformation doesn't make you any slower, do you really think something as comparatively tiny as Grade 3 would? Of course the power increase is quite likely smaller in Grade 3's case, but there is much less body size to compensate for.

If Grade 3 is literally slower than Grade 2 (let alone Grade 1), then this form is entirely useless even for the purpose of gaining an edge over an opponent who previously was an even match - which it could serve very well if we assumed it only offsets part of the ki-granted speed. Say, Grade 2 Trunks gets into an altercation with Grade 2 Vegeta. He wants to end the battle quickly, but is unable to due to Vegeta's slight edge in power. Wouldn't going Grade 3 be the solution to such a situation? Your power increases 2x, though your muscles get so big that they negate whatever speed benefits the form would have given, so you still trade blows evenly, but do much more damage when they connect. While never given this opportunity in the actual series, I think Grade 3 should at least have this much going on for it. It should have at least one specific situation where it could be even slightly useful, otherwise I see absolutely zero legitimacy for it even existing.

[apex_pretador]

I'll keep it calm and short.

Grade 3 makes your shoulders thick, biceps, triceps, etc all very thick.
like this:

Spoiler:

so, the fighter can't move his limbs quickly due to the fact that the bulky muscles "HINDER" the motion of their limbs. So, the apparent speed is decreased. The effect is more pronounced due to added weight, which acts as weighted clothing.

[Saturnine]

I'll keep it calm and short.

Grade 3 makes your shoulders thick, biceps, triceps, etc all very thick.
like this:

Spoiler:

so, the fighter can't move his limbs quickly due to the fact that the bulky muscles "HINDER" the motion of their limbs. So, the apparent speed is decreased. The effect is more pronounced due to added weight, which acts as weighted clothing.

I think we all agree with that, though. The point of this discussion is just how much and related to which powerlevel.

[TheMikado]

It's all wrong dude.
It's more like this:

Base: Power 5, Speed 5, Ki Consumption 5
SSJ: Power 10, Speed 10, Ki Consumption 10
Grade 2: Power 15, Speed 15, Ki Consumption 20
Grade 3: Power 20, Speed 15, Ki Consumption 30
FPSSJ: Power 10, Speed 10, Ki Consumption 5
SSJ2: Power 20, Speed 20, Ki Comsumption 20

with Ki consumption being how much ki you consume.

That's why Goku points out the basic SSJ is much more balanced and he decides to master it so that Ki consumption becomes less and so it becomes a lot better. This is my idea, and it should work the same for Cell.

I changed your above numbers to something that makes more sense in my mind.
A mastered base form means the next highest level scales linearly when you go to it.
These aren't actual increase percentages just examples of how it would work.
Once you mastered FSSJ you can have the linear jump that you experienced in base without the speed and power hit.
Even grade two would not give you enough benefit if the fight is dragged out too long.

[Saturnine]

It's all wrong dude.
It's more like this:

Base: Power 5, Speed 5, Ki Consumption 5
SSJ: Power 10, Speed 10, Ki Consumption 10
Grade 2: Power 15, Speed 15, Ki Consumption 20
Grade 3: Power 20, Speed 15, Ki Consumption 30
FPSSJ: Power 10, Speed 10, Ki Consumption 5
SSJ2: Power 20, Speed 20, Ki Comsumption 20

with Ki consumption being how much ki you consume.

That's why Goku points out the basic SSJ is much more balanced and he decides to master it so that Ki consumption becomes less and so it becomes a lot better. This is my idea, and it should work the same for Cell.

I changed your above numbers to something that makes more sense in my mind.
A mastered base form means the next highest level scales linearly when you go to it.
These aren't actual increase percentages just examples of how it would work.
Once you mastered FSSJ you can have the linear jump that you experienced in base without the speed and power hit.
Even grade two would not give you enough benefit if the fight is dragged out too long.

Oh, so we agree on the "not literally slower" part, nice to know!

However, I'm still kinda baffled as to why Goku wouldn't try Grade 2 against Cell if it gave him a free 1,5x boost to all stats. He could have stayed in the state only briefly, to perform one strong attack or something, and then revert - catching Cell off guard and nullifying the energy drain disadvantage. Also, if Grade 2 is only 1,5x, would Gohan's hidden power of SSj2 which is supposedly only 2x be played up so much? Would Goku put all his hopes in Gohan without making sure he did all he could?

This is of course not a discussion for this thread, but I had to get it off my chest

[apex_pretador]

It's all wrong dude.
It's more like this:

Base: Power 5, Speed 5, Ki Consumption 5
SSJ: Power 10, Speed 10, Ki Consumption 10
Grade 2: Power 15, Speed 15, Ki Consumption 20
Grade 3: Power 20, Speed 15, Ki Consumption 30
FPSSJ: Power 10, Speed 10, Ki Consumption 5
SSJ2: Power 20, Speed 20, Ki Comsumption 20

with Ki consumption being how much ki you consume.

That's why Goku points out the basic SSJ is much more balanced and he decides to master it so that Ki consumption becomes less and so it becomes a lot better. This is my idea, and it should work the same for Cell.

I changed your above numbers to something that makes more sense in my mind.
A mastered base form means the next highest level scales linearly when you go to it.
These aren't actual increase percentages just examples of how it would work.
Once you mastered FSSJ you can have the linear jump that you experienced in base without the speed and power hit.
Even grade two would not give you enough benefit if the fight is dragged out too long.

Oh, so we agree on the "not literally slower" part, nice to know!

However, I'm still kinda baffled as to why Goku wouldn't try Grade 2 against Cell if it gave him a free 1,5x boost to all stats. He could have stayed in the state only briefly, to perform one strong attack or something, and then revert - catching Cell off guard and nullifying the energy drain disadvantage. Also, if Grade 2 is only 1,5x, would Gohan's hidden power of SSj2 which is supposedly only 2x be played up so much? Would Goku put all his hopes in Gohan without making sure he did all he could?

This is of course not a discussion for this thread, but I had to get it off my chest

because grade 2 doesn't give him a boost, as it is not a literal transformation.

[Steven Bloodriver]

The downsides of a Saiyan using his or her Super Saiyan energy like the Kaioken to achieve the Ultra Super Saiyan form seem to only be agility loss, massive strain on the body, and a power drain similar to the Super Saiyan 3 form.

[TheMikado]

It's all wrong dude.
It's more like this:

Base: Power 5, Speed 5, Ki Consumption 5
SSJ: Power 10, Speed 10, Ki Consumption 10
Grade 2: Power 15, Speed 15, Ki Consumption 20
Grade 3: Power 20, Speed 15, Ki Consumption 30
FPSSJ: Power 10, Speed 10, Ki Consumption 5
SSJ2: Power 20, Speed 20, Ki Comsumption 20

with Ki consumption being how much ki you consume.

That's why Goku points out the basic SSJ is much more balanced and he decides to master it so that Ki consumption becomes less and so it becomes a lot better. This is my idea, and it should work the same for Cell.

I changed your above numbers to something that makes more sense in my mind.
A mastered base form means the next highest level scales linearly when you go to it.
These aren't actual increase percentages just examples of how it would work.
Once you mastered FSSJ you can have the linear jump that you experienced in base without the speed and power hit.
Even grade two would not give you enough benefit if the fight is dragged out too long.

Oh, so we agree on the "not literally slower" part, nice to know!

However, I'm still kinda baffled as to why Goku wouldn't try Grade 2 against Cell if it gave him a free 1,5x boost to all stats. He could have stayed in the state only briefly, to perform one strong attack or something, and then revert - catching Cell off guard and nullifying the energy drain disadvantage. Also, if Grade 2 is only 1,5x, would Gohan's hidden power of SSj2 which is supposedly only 2x be played up so much? Would Goku put all his hopes in Gohan without making sure he did all he could?

This is of course not a discussion for this thread, but I had to get it off my chest

I think that's a good question and it always looked like SSJ Grade 2 would match Cell at best, leaving him more open after the boost due to the Ki drain. Grade 3 was the only form that actually was a match in raw power for Perfect cell and Vegeta already proved that grade 2 power was inadequate. Gohan mastering the true SSJ2 form was always their only hope unless they all bum rushed Cell.in Goku case it always made sense to conserve power just in case rather than take a gamble on something what was already shown to not likely work.

[Saturnine]

I think that's a good question and it always looked like SSJ Grade 2 would match Cell at best, leaving him more open after the boost due to the Ki drain. Grade 3 was the only form that actually was a match in raw power for Perfect cell and Vegeta already proved that grade 2 power was inadequate. Gohan mastering the true SSJ2 form was always their only hope unless they all bum rushed Cell.in Goku case it always made sense to conserve power just in case rather than take a gamble on something what was already shown to not likely work.

Well, but you've gotta consider that Cell still had plentiful reserves compared to the power he used against Grade 2 Vegeta, and which were still enough to beat him. Grade 2 at Vegeta's as-of-then powerlevel was utterly inadequate against Cell. Plus, even though it should have granted benefits, Vegeta didn't use the form again during the Cell Games (that is because I think FPSSj overwrites Grade 2 and 3). I simply think SSj2 is so far beyond the SSj1 forms it's just not fair to even compare them. FPSSj Goku was already stronger than Grade 3 trunks, and Gohan was even stronger than that, and he had yet to go SSj2. Also, I think FPSSj Vegeta was around 70% of FPSSj Goku during the Cell Games.

So to make this short, at the same base level: Untrained SSj < Grade 2 < Grade 3 </= FPSSj (equal peak power but proportional speed and greatly superior stamina) <<<<<<< SSj2

[TheMikado]

I think that's a good question and it always looked like SSJ Grade 2 would match Cell at best, leaving him more open after the boost due to the Ki drain. Grade 3 was the only form that actually was a match in raw power for Perfect cell and Vegeta already proved that grade 2 power was inadequate. Gohan mastering the true SSJ2 form was always their only hope unless they all bum rushed Cell.in Goku case it always made sense to conserve power just in case rather than take a gamble on something what was already shown to not likely work.

Well, but you've gotta consider that Cell still had plentiful reserves compared to the power he used against Grade 2 Vegeta, and which were still enough to beat him. Grade 2 at Vegeta's as-of-then powerlevel was utterly inadequate against Cell. Plus, even though it should have granted benefits, Vegeta didn't use the form again during the Cell Games (that is because I think FPSSj overwrites Grade 2 and 3). I simply think SSj2 is so far beyond the SSj1 forms it's just not fair to even compare them. FPSSj Goku was already stronger than Grade 3 trunks, and Gohan was even stronger than that, and he had yet to go SSj2. Also, I think FPSSj Vegeta was around 70% of FPSSj Goku during the Cell Games.

So to make this short, at the same base level: Untrained SSj < Grade 2 < Grade 3 </= FPSSj (equal peak power but proportional speed and greatly superior stamina) <<<<<<< SSj2

I don't think that's the case. I think most people think of Grade 3 and SSJ2 as equals but without the power speed drain. As can be seen when Trunks roughs up Perfect Cell in Grade 3. Its not like Cell was holding back or anything. The only thing that comes close to that is SSJ2. FPSSJ is basically just mastered base form of SSJ which allows you to achieve higher levels of performance with the exhaustion and drain. I don't understand why people say it's a form, it's a physical conditioning state. The same type of training used by runner, cyclist, or any other athlete. This is why cyclists will train by biking hours at a time on a cycle. They are trying to get their normal cycling state to the point where it is their new normal and takes less effort so they can achieve faster times and more endurance.