SSGSS Goku and Vegeta and Rage Boosts and Stuff

[Darkprince410]

we know Goku and Vegeta won`t be surpassing the gods, Goku used kaioken x10 and is still weaker then beerus, that would put rage vegeta above ssb Goku that does not even make sense.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that the Beerus' percentile scale is different from the scouter scale? We have seen this time and again. Need I remind you of Old Piccolo Daimao using less than half of his power against pre-ultra divine water kid Goku and outclassing him? Where do you put that Goku given that Roshi had a power level of 139 and where do you put Old Piccolo Daimao, given Piccolo Jr at the Radditz saga had a power level of 408 and he was immensely more powerful than his father at the time? (Piccolo Jr Radditz saga>Piccolo Jr 23rd TB>>Young Piccolo Daimao>>Old Piccolo Daimao)

Because that linear scaling makes sense when you take into account the percentages established in-universe for the time frame. In Battle of Gods (the movie), Beerus establishes that he was using 70% of his strength when fighting against Ssj God Goku. On the 6, 10, 15 scale provided, 70% of 10 would result in 7, which fits with the overall advantage that Beerus seemingly had over Goku.

[ryan s]

nevertheless Akira said what he said and he clearly was past the universe 6 arc,

it was released two weeks ago you don`t release old information, two weeks ago they brought it out to the public to advertise super meaning it is very much valid

yet he still did not see Goku as a problem, he was not scared of Goku as you claim

You release information when it becomes available. They compiled the first 9 chapters along with the Jump Victory Carnival 2015 bonus comic including this interview. Chapter 10 was released March 19th. 2 weeks before this volume, and interview, was released. So what does that tell you? It tells you that this volume was being compiled before the 19th of March or effictively was compiled before the 19th of March to be released at a later date.

If it was a month or two ago then that is, at most 8, episodes ago which is just before the Universe 6 arc. So that is plenty of time for Goku to not be seen as passing Beerus for a while.

And I've checked the episode. Beerus does seem troubled by this new technique that Goku has. He does try to shrug it off at nothing but you can see that he is worried about it.

very poor argument, for one a new future character has not been introduced and a white enemy has not appeared, so his statements obviously still stand, it is so simple, but now suddenly because TOEI shows Beerus nervous about kaioken it means goku has surpassed him? no that is not sound logic at all, when we get past the future character and the white enemy you are free to say he has been surpassed to say otherwise now it is just nonsense and faulty reasoning, Akiras interview went past universe 6 without a doubt so that means his statement about Beerus not being surpassed still applies , he had most likely written all the story of the universe 6 arc prior

there would be no point releasing the interview, if that was the case clearly what was stated still stands

Akira "i have no plans for Goku and Vegeta surpassing Beerus and Whis" "next enemy will be white" "new character coming" universe 6 ie before all his statements goku is surpasses Beerus (does this seem logical to you?)

[Hitiro]

very poor argument, for one a new future character has not been introduced and a white enemy has not appeared, so his statements obviously still stand, it is so simple, but now suddenly because TOEI shows Beerus nervous about kaioken it means goku has surpassed him? no that is not sound logic at all, when we get past the future character and the white enemy you are free to say he has been surpassed to say otherwise now it is just nonsense and faulty reasoning, Akiras interview went past universe 6 without a doubt so that means his statement about Beerus not being surpassed still applies , he had most likely written all the story of the universe 6 arc prior

there would be no point releasing the interview, if that was the case clearly what was stated still stands

Akira "i have no plans for Goku and Vegeta surpassing Beerus and Whis" "next enemy will be white" "new character coming" 8 episodes later universe 6 arc, goku is surpasses Beerus (does this seem logical to you?)

What does the future character not being introduced have anything to do with any of his other statements?... That makes literally no sense. Also, I did not say that showing Beerus being nervous has to mean Goku has surpassed him but it is more likely given that there would be no reason for him to be nervous if Goku was actually weaker than him or at least not comparable to him. Goku surpassing Beerus and the arrival of these new characters do not have to be linked whatsoever. That is faulty reasoning right there in and of itself. What Akira Toriyama said was "Right know I don't have any plans for having Goku surpass Beerus." But if this was 1 to 2 months ago then it is perfectly fine for Goku to surpass Beerus now because it has already been a significant amount of time. 2 months make up two thirds of an anime season. Which is a significant amount of time. "Right now" has no bearing one or two months down the line.

[ryan s]

very poor argument, for one a new future character has not been introduced and a white enemy has not appeared, so his statements obviously still stand, it is so simple, but now suddenly because TOEI shows Beerus nervous about kaioken it means goku has surpassed him? no that is not sound logic at all, when we get past the future character and the white enemy you are free to say he has been surpassed to say otherwise now it is just nonsense and faulty reasoning, Akiras interview went past universe 6 without a doubt so that means his statement about Beerus not being surpassed still applies , he had most likely written all the story of the universe 6 arc prior

there would be no point releasing the interview, if that was the case clearly what was stated still stands

Akira "i have no plans for Goku and Vegeta surpassing Beerus and Whis" "next enemy will be white" "new character coming" 8 episodes later universe 6 arc, goku is surpasses Beerus (does this seem logical to you?)

What does the future character not being introduced have anything to do with any of his other statements?... That makes literally no sense. Also, I did not say that showing Beerus being nervous has to mean Goku has surpassed him but it is more likely given that there would be no reason for him to be nervous if Goku was actually weaker than him or at least not comparable to him. Goku surpassing Beerus and the arrival of these new characters do not have to be linked whatsoever. That is faulty reasoning right there in and of itself. What Akira Toriyama said was "Right know I don't have any plans for having Goku surpass Beerus." But if this was 1 to 2 months ago then it is perfectly fine for Goku to surpass Beerus now because it has already been a significant amount of time. 2 months make up two thirds of an anime season. Which is a significant amount of time. "Right now" has no bearing one or two months down the line.

my point was he has clearly already written past the universe 6 arc at that point ie good reasoning and was developing the next arc, it is called context that was my point

whereas your points are "TOEI showed beerus being nervous" "it has been two moths since the release of the interview" (even though he had clearly written universe 6 and was talking about the FUTURE of the series andthe current arc he is developing or has developed)

[Analytic]

Somewhat off topic, but I find it a bit disrespectful to call Toriyama by his first name. We (presumably) don't know the man on a personal level, so we shouldn't be on a first name basis.

[ryan s]

Somewhat off topic, but I find it a bit disrespectful to call Toriyama by his first name. We (presumably) don't know the man on a personal level, so we shouldn't be on a first name basis.

i am guessing this is a culture thing? if it offends you i will stop but i don`t see this a a issue personally

[Hitiro]

my point was he has clearly already written past the universe 6 arc at that point ie good reasoning and was developing the next arc, it is called context that was my point

whereas your points are "TOEI showed beerus being nervous" "it has been two moths since the release of the interview" (even though he had clearly written universe 6 and was talking about the FUTURE of the series andthe current arc he is developing or has developed)

Akira Toriyama writing past the U6 arc and his statement at the time of the interview do not have to be inextricably linked. What he says is "Right now" there were no plans for Goku having surpassed Beerus. But that could be just him talking about where the anime is currently in the story. Given this would be prior to the actual fights of the U6 arc if the interview was held 1-2 months ago. Essentially what I'm saying is Akira's statment is a reflection of where the anime is currently not what he has written up to. While he indeed makes references to things he has written that we have yet to see he also talks about previous events and current events within the story. So his statement that right now he doesn't have any plans to have Goku surpass Beerus can easily be can merely be about what has currently been aired in the story. That would be because he planned to have Goku surpass Beerus later in the arc, so we shouldn't be expecting Goku, or Vegeta for that matter, being stronger than Beerus by the time they actually get to the tournament. Especially seeing as they trained for 3 years in the RoSaT before going there.

[Speedster]

we know Goku and Vegeta won`t be surpassing the gods, Goku used kaioken x10 and is still weaker then beerus, that would put rage vegeta above ssb Goku that does not even make sense.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that the Beerus' percentile scale is different from the scouter scale? We have seen this time and again. Need I remind you of Old Piccolo Daimao using less than half of his power against pre-ultra divine water kid Goku and outclassing him? Where do you put that Goku given that Roshi had a power level of 139 and where do you put Old Piccolo Daimao, given Piccolo Jr at the Radditz saga had a power level of 408 and he was immensely more powerful than his father at the time? (Piccolo Jr Radditz saga>Piccolo Jr 23rd TB>>Young Piccolo Daimao>>Old Piccolo Daimao)

Because that linear scaling makes sense when you take into account the percentages established in-universe for the time frame. In Battle of Gods (the movie), Beerus establishes that he was using 70% of his strength when fighting against Ssj God Goku. On the 6, 10, 15 scale provided, 70% of 10 would result in 7, which fits with the overall advantage that Beerus seemingly had over Goku.

That is because you incorrectly assume that actual strength (e.g. how much weight you can lift or how hard you can punch or how much energy you can release per unit time) correlates with power levels linearly. Which is definitely NOT true even for the scouter power levels and you know this well.

Also for all we know 60% of Beerus is 60% of a power level (in whatever scale he is using). It is not necessarily 60% of Beerus' actual physical strength/speed/destructive capacity, etc. If you were to depict this as a graph, power levels would be the x axis. But the actual strength is the quantity in the y axis. The two are related with y=f(x) -- the function is exponential (or linear if you plot on a loglog graph).

Besides we know from the episode summaries that…

Spoiler:

Champa is about to kill all if his contestants and this includes Hit who apparently in the next episode keeps up with SSBKKx10 Goku.

[ryan s]

bro you are looking way to deep into this, Akira has already written up future plans for super, even the next enemy and he has said Goku and Vegeta won`t surpass Beerus, so until the next arc is over beerus won`t be surpassed.

there is a reason everyone understood it as the future it is called context, you are simply over thinking it

Toyotarō:
… I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama:
Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis (the quote gives context that he means the future)

note the words "I don`t have any plans" meaning his story, not in the anime unless you say he is lying

[Darkprince410]

Akira "i have no plans for Goku and Vegeta surpassing Beerus and Whis" "next enemy will be white" "new character coming" universe 6 ie before all his statements goku is surpasses Beerus (does this seem logical to you?)

You do realize that, for all we know, Toriyama was referring to Freeza when it came to the whole "color-clash" with a white-haired Ssj God Ssj, right? He was talking about Revival of F when it was fairly early in production (before Ssj God Ssj was given blue hair), and there was no indication that he had anything after Revival of F planned out at the time (no indication of Super or a third movie). If it were early enough into production as well, it could have been before the idea was created to give Freeza a new form, and thus a white-haired Ssj God Ssj vs. a white/grey Final Form Freeza would indeed count as color clashing.

That is because you incorrectly assume that actual strength (e.g. how much weight you can lift or how hard you can punch or how much energy you can release per unit time) correlates with power levels linearly. Which is definitely NOT true even for the scouter power levels and you know this well.

Where is it said or suggested that strength doesn't scale with battle powers in a linear fashion? The whole battle power system was implemented for a quick and straightforward way of determining who was stronger than the other, so there's no reason to believe that Toriyama intended for some complicated notion of them not scaling in a linear fashion. Outside of instances like Ssj 3rd Grade, where it's readily established that the nature of the form "kills speed", nothing is stated or suggested that, say, doubling one's battle power didn't result in a doubling of their strength, their speed, etc.

Besides we know from the episode summaries that…

Spoiler:

Champa is about to kill them for having lost the tournament for him, thus Hit lost his match against Goku. As a result, we have no idea what physical condition Hit is in by the time Champa goes to kill them all. For all we know, Hit could be sprawled out on the tournament ring, unconscious and heavily damaged, when Champa goes to do that, so, as it stands, that's not evidence.

[ryan s]

Akira "i have no plans for Goku and Vegeta surpassing Beerus and Whis" "next enemy will be white" "new character coming" universe 6 ie before all his statements goku is surpasses Beerus (does this seem logical to you?)

You do realize that, for all we know, Toriyama was referring to Freeza when it came to the whole "color-clash" with a white-haired Ssj God Ssj, right? He was talking about Revival of F when it was fairly early in production (before Ssj God Ssj was given blue hair), and there was no indication that he had anything after Revival of F planned out at the time (no indication of Super or a third movie). If it were early enough into production as well, it could have been before the idea was created to give Freeza a new form, and thus a white-haired Ssj God Ssj vs. a white/grey Final Form Freeza would indeed count as color clashing.

That is because you incorrectly assume that actual strength (e.g. how much weight you can lift or how hard you can punch or how much energy you can release per unit time) correlates with power levels linearly. Which is definitely NOT true even for the scouter power levels and you know this well.

Where is it said or suggested that strength doesn't scale with battle powers in a linear fashion? The whole battle power system was implemented for a quick and straightforward way of determining who was stronger than the other, so there's no reason to believe that Toriyama intended for some complicated notion of them not scaling in a linear fashion. Outside of instances like Ssj 3rd Grade, where it's readily established that the nature of the form "kills speed", nothing is stated or suggested that, say, doubling one's battle power didn't result in a doubling of their strength, their speed, etc.

Besides we know from the episode summaries that…

Spoiler:

Champa is about to kill them for having lost the tournament for him, thus Hit lost his match against Goku. As a result, we have no idea what physical condition Hit is in by the time Champa goes to kill them all. For all we know, Hit could be sprawled out on the tournament ring, unconscious and heavily damaged, when Champa goes to do that, so, as it stands, that's not evidence.

yes but if it was frieza he would have said frieza and not been so vague about it

[Hugo Boss]

Who else he could be talking about? The only white enemy who Goku fought in Revival of F was Freeza. He didn't surpass Beerus there. We don't know if Goku already did it right now, it's pure speculation, but it's not impossible.

[ryan s]

Who else he could be talking about? The only white enemy who Goku fought in Revival of F was Freeza. He didn't surpass Beerus there. We don't know if Goku already did it right now, it's pure speculation, but it's not impossible.

i doubt it is frieza,akiras statement still stands it was clearly implied for the future

[Lord Beerus]

Huijo did a plot summary of the episode earlier in the Dragon Ball Super thread. This is what is said.

Whis teases Beerus, asking is he finds that idea a bit scary, but he flatly denies this. Instead, he’s simply annoyed that Goku didn’t use such a handy technique earlier. But Vegeta realizes why: the Kaio-Ken increases one’s strength but in exchange uses up all of one’s stamina.

This is plenty reliable. Also, the volume that this interview came with was released on the 4th of April. So Akira Toriyam didn't say it two weeks ago. It would have been done a while before that. These things take time to be compiled and the meeting would have to have been set up prior to the volumes selling for it to be printed in the actual volume... The interview could have been compiled a month or two ago for all we know.

So wait, Beerus wasn't scared at the idea of Goku using a technique on him? So were these subs inaccurate?:

[Speedster]

Where is it said or suggested that strength doesn't scale with battle powers in a linear fashion? The whole battle power system was implemented for a quick and straightforward way of determining who was stronger than the other, so there's no reason to believe that Toriyama intended for some complicated notion of them not scaling in a linear fashion. Outside of instances like Ssj 3rd Grade, where it's readily established that the nature of the form "kills speed", nothing is stated or suggested that, say, doubling one's battle power didn't result in a doubling of their strength, their speed, etc.

So I guess if I myself get 2 times stronger I will be able to press lift a 1200kg car then. Because you know now with a power level of 5 I can already press lift 600kg! Ah and I will also be able to tank bullets too without a scratch! Ah and if I get 10x stronger I will be able to jump to the clouds! Because already with a power level of 5 I can jump to the top of the Eiffel tower! Ah and I will also be fast enough to catch bullets. And if I get 25x faster than I am now I will be able to move 15x faster than the speed of sound like Taopaipai jumping on his pillar that covered 2400km in less than 15mins! Because you know I can already make jumps like that at 60% the speed of sound ... as fast as an airplane! And if I take 20 friends of mine and push together we can push that giant 700 tonne boulder that kid Goku/Krillin pushed. And what about the moon? We can destroy it too! No problem despite requiring 10 septillion times more energy! Ah and what about Goku pushing a boulder of at least 50x bigger volume than the one he first moved before starting his training with Roshi? I guess then that post Roshi training Goku had a power level of 10*50=500. More than when he was adult after a ton of increases. Right?

I think it is fairly obvious that doubling your power level, increases your actual strength/speed by a lot more than just 2x and as a result it is non-linear. And before you tell me that all these examples I gave were not from the "Z era" where power levels were relevant. Well first that is exactly the point. Dragonball existed before those worthless numerical power levels were introduced. And Dragonball still exists after those worthless power levels were dropped. Power levels and worthless multipliers were actually irrelevant for 85% of the story. But anyway here are a few of examples from that little period they were used.

1. Goku needed 6 months to run the 1 million km snakeway. But let’s say he was sleeping 8 hours and actually covered the distance in only 120 days. His power level with weights was 334. Goku then made the return journey in about a day though he flew over it. With the curves the distance was about a third (you can measure the ratio between the spacings and the length of the curves pretty well from the drawings). So Goku’s speed increased by 40x. Even if you lowball it hen it increased by 30x and (we are already overlowballing anyway by assuming he run only for 120 days instead of 180). Now his power level was 5000. This is 5000/334=15x increase in power level. If it was a linear increase Goku’s speed would increase by just 15x. However it increased by at least double that amount. Hence non-linear.

2. Vegeta with an attack of 25000-30000 could blow up the earth. Piccolo/Roshi blew up the moon with 500-1000. So here an increase in power level of 25-60x resulted in an increase of 1000x in destructive capacity (blow up the moon you need 10^29 Joules and to blow up the earth 10^32 Joules). Hence non-linear.

3. 50% final form Freeza with a power level of supposedly 60 million tanked a Genki Dama of over 50m diameter. In comparison Vegeta as illustrated by Gohan tanked a Genki Dama of 0.5 diameter. That is 1million times bigger volume! Now remind me what was Vegeta’s power level then? 6thousand at worst (considering his supposedly used half his power level for the artificial moon and the beat up he taken)? What is supposedly 50% Freeza’s level? 60 million? So 10,000x increase in power level results in 1 million increase in durability (not to mention that Vegeta was more damaged from it than Freeza but anyway). Again non-linear.

[Doctor.]

At this point I believe enraged Vegeta managed to SOMEHOW tap into the SSG powers, or a portion of them. That's the only thing that makes sense.

[ZombieVito]

At this point I believe enraged Vegeta managed to SOMEHOW tap into the SSG powers, or a portion of them. That's the only thing that makes sense.

Yeah I agree. Maybe he's 1/6 as strong as SSG.

[TheMikado]

At this point I believe enraged Vegeta managed to SOMEHOW tap into the SSG powers, or a portion of them. That's the only thing that makes sense.

Yeah I agree. Maybe he's 1/6 as strong as SSG.

Are you guys being sarcastic? Also all these points have been rehashed in the power thread. I only say this because we will end up with 20 thread on who's power levels is stronger than these people. It's better to keep it all consolidated.

[ROCKYIII]

it doesn't make sense unless you make something up. End of story it's a kids show people. Power levels make less sense than they did in DBZ and they really didn't make sense in DBZ. Let's calm down, Goku is meant to be weaker than beerus at this juncture story wise. No science or logic needed. That is all.

[Cipher]

Was Goku with the Kaio-Ken specifically said to be weaker than Beerus? I know about Toriyama's quote saying he had no plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass him, but the Kaio-Ken may simply not count in that regard, like how Goku didn't really "surpass" Vegeta with the Kaio-Ken on Earth. Didn't Goku also specifically say he was working on it to beat Beerus in the first place?

This is my take as well. Given Beerus' reaction in the episode and common-sense power-scaling, it's not unbelievable that Goku using Kaio-Ken would be strong enough to give Beerus a run for his money.

Which doesn't mean he can actually beat him, or that he's surpassed him, if the power is so high-risk and can only be used for a few moments. It just means he's on the right path.