I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

[Saturnine]

I think there is no such thing as "filler doesn't count" as far as DBS goes, since Toei has the same level of liberty making Toriyama's core stories as the in-between stories. With the former they just have to follow the general plot outline, all details are still up to them.

It is then very clear that SSj Gohan wasn't meant to fight a godly SSj Goku. No such thing as that anyway, since that would be SSjGSSj.

The godly base seems to be either forgotten entirely or just used whenever the fuck they want with no indication whatsoever that he's doing it. Toyotaro's manga really at least does clear this confusion up.

[LowRyder2005]

So, Gohan has never been Ultimate in Super so far ever since the Resurrection "F" arc, meaning base Gohan forced base Goku to use Super Saiyan, and then SS Gohan fought evenly with SS Goku. Explain this without the two-base theory.

I would like to use this post to point out that, irony is, a supposedly straigthforward power scale has in almost no uncertain terms been crippled by the implications of ep. 88.
Now, even for those refusing to admit Gohan was appreciably weaker than usual (which is pretty much handwaved in very clear terms), Gohan is still weaker than Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan at the very least as a SS2, per Goku's words. We also know that Super Saiyan Gohan was enough make Goku turn Super Saiyan, which should most likely means - again, at bare minimum - that Super Saiyan Gohan was at least somewhat above Goku's base form. We should also pose that Ultimate Gohan shouldn't be more than two times stronger than Super Buu.

This would then bring us to:
Super Buu * 2 > Ultimate Gohan > SS2 Gohan (current) > SS Gohan (current) > Base Goku (U7 Arc) > Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks (current) >=< Super Buu > SS2 Gohan (Buu Saga) > SS2 Gohan (current)

There are some, rather contrived, justifications I can think of: something like Goku going Super Saiyan for the heck of it and then suppressing himself to lower than his regular base levels against Gohan; then again, it would hardly appear like the simplest explanation at this point, which is the main argument of those who adhered to this reasoning in the first place.

[Lord Beerus]

This was very recently posted in the Super Power Levels thread:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Can't believe something like this was posted in the forum in the past and ignored. This resolves 95% of the power scaling issues in Super. The two base theory is now a thing. I just wish the anime or the manga could have spared some time to explain this.

[Grimlock]

Actually Saiyan beyond God was always a thing, it was first coined in that material, then Dragon Ball Heroes came up with the name and its "pre-description". That's why I never understood why people still call it "theory" even though there are a lot of sources saying it is real.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Actually Saiyan beyond God was always a thing, it was first coined in that material, then Dragon Ball Heroes came up with the name and its "pre-description". That's why I never understood why people still call it "theory" even though there are a lot of sources saying it is real.

The funny thing is, people say that it's "too complicated for Dragon Ball", ignoring Ultimate Gohan which is more or less the same thing.

[ekrolo2]

It's basically confirmed now but I would've vastly preferred one of several scenarios.

1) FUCKING. ESTABLISH. IT. IN-UNIVERSE! As in, sit our asses down and tell us how Goku & Vegeta's powers work. What, is Kathleen Kennedy secretly running Dragon Ball now so we've gotta buy and/or read supplementary material to make the main product work?

2) Just do it like the manga and just keep their Bases regular and give them both SSGod and Blue.

3) Make a discernible difference between the two-bases on a visual level. Even Ultimate gave Gohan the SS eyes to create some differentiation between his regular and Ultimate self. Maybe give Goku & Vegeta SSGod-like eyes? Or make the white aura of their God bases look like SSGods. Make some visual ques to differentiate between the two base states.

[ChiefWamsutta]

It's basically confirmed now but I would've vastly preferred one of several scenarios.

1) FUCKING. ESTABLISH. IT. IN-UNIVERSE! As in, sit our asses down and tell us how Goku & Vegeta's powers work. What, is Kathleen Kennedy secretly running Dragon Ball now so we've gotta buy and/or read supplementary material to make the main product work?

2) Just do it like the manga and just keep their Bases regular and give them both SSGod and Blue.

3) Make a discernible difference between the two-bases on a visual level. Even Ultimate gave Gohan the SS eyes to create some differentiation between his regular and Ultimate self. Maybe give Goku & Vegeta SSGod-like eyes? Or make the white aura of their God bases look like SSGods. Make some visual ques to differentiate between the two base states.

LMFAO at the Kathleen Kennedy shade.

You know ... to be completely honest ... I have a feeling Ep. 90 will talk about some of this. Gohan is going to basically be trained by Goku, and it is implied he will get to God-level. I'm feeling like Goku will talk about it to Gohan.

[Desassina]

So, fans need to be handed... Never mind the people who have always told you to trust Akira Toriyama's influence on the anime (DB Super) based on the original manga run events that depicted some transformations as shortcuts to their full power. It happened when Cell showed off against Trunks by bulking up and he had access to his full power without deformation. Just... don't take it to one extreme where two base forms need to exist. It's ranging power, like Goku going from regular SSJ up to half of his full power, and then all of it in front of Korin and Cell.

[ekrolo2]

It's basically confirmed now but I would've vastly preferred one of several scenarios.

1) FUCKING. ESTABLISH. IT. IN-UNIVERSE! As in, sit our asses down and tell us how Goku & Vegeta's powers work. What, is Kathleen Kennedy secretly running Dragon Ball now so we've gotta buy and/or read supplementary material to make the main product work?

2) Just do it like the manga and just keep their Bases regular and give them both SSGod and Blue.

3) Make a discernible difference between the two-bases on a visual level. Even Ultimate gave Gohan the SS eyes to create some differentiation between his regular and Ultimate self. Maybe give Goku & Vegeta SSGod-like eyes? Or make the white aura of their God bases look like SSGods. Make some visual ques to differentiate between the two base states.

LMFAO at the Kathleen Kennedy shade.

You know ... to be completely honest ... I have a feeling Ep. 90 will talk about some of this. Gohan is going to basically be trained by Goku, and it is implied he will get to God-level. I'm feeling like Goku will talk about it to Gohan.

This should've been talked about ages ago, they're not gonna discuss it now especially since we had to dig up a 2 year old magazine thing that predates Super itself to try and make sense of things.

[TheMikado]

So, fans need to be handed... Never mind the people who have always told you to trust Akira Toriyama's influence on the anime (DB Super) based on the original manga run events that depicted some transformations as shortcuts to their full power. It happened when Cell showed off against Trunks by bulking up and he had access to his full power without deformation. Just... don't take it to one extreme where two base forms need to exist. It's ranging power, like Goku going from regular SSJ up to half of his full power, and then all of it in front of Korin and Cell.

If it were ranged then all the yellow SSJ forms would be redundant when he could use God power instead. When you stack SSJ on top of God power you get blue not yellow.

[Lord Beerus]

It's basically confirmed now but I would've vastly preferred one of several scenarios.

1) FUCKING. ESTABLISH. IT. IN-UNIVERSE! As in, sit our asses down and tell us how Goku & Vegeta's powers work. What, is Kathleen Kennedy secretly running Dragon Ball now so we've gotta buy and/or read supplementary material to make the main product work?

2) Just do it like the manga and just keep their Bases regular and give them both SSGod and Blue.

3) Make a discernible difference between the two-bases on a visual level. Even Ultimate gave Gohan the SS eyes to create some differentiation between his regular and Ultimate self. Maybe give Goku & Vegeta SSGod-like eyes? Or make the white aura of their God bases look like SSGods. Make some visual ques to differentiate between the two base states.

LMFAO at the Kathleen Kennedy shade.

You know ... to be completely honest ... I have a feeling Ep. 90 will talk about some of this. Gohan is going to basically be trained by Goku, and it is implied he will get to God-level. I'm feeling like Goku will talk about it to Gohan.

This should've been talked about ages ago, they're not gonna discuss it now especially since we had to dig up a 2 year old magazine thing that predates Super itself to try and make sense of things.

To be fair, the original manga left a lot of shit up in the air in regards to power related topics. And the guidebooks helped fill in the blanks. I'm not saying at all that this excuses Super's lack of details, but there's nothing with the previously established tidbits or information, especially from the creator of franchise, being applied to bridge the gap left in regards to connecting one event or piece of information to the next. Especially since the events of Resurrection F apply directly to Super as the events of the movie are retold in the anime.

[Desassina]

So, fans need to be handed... Never mind the people who have always told you to trust Akira Toriyama's influence on the anime (DB Super) based on the original manga run events that depicted some transformations as shortcuts to their full power. It happened when Cell showed off against Trunks by bulking up and he had access to his full power without deformation. Just... don't take it to one extreme where two base forms need to exist. It's ranging power, like Goku going from regular SSJ up to half of his full power, and then all of it in front of Korin and Cell.

If it were ranged then all the yellow SSJ forms would be redundant when he could use God power instead. When you stack SSJ on top of God power you get blue not yellow.

As it would be redundant for Cell to bulk up against Trunks when he did it. Come on, you guys are arguing about visual clues for their power, and you have it even with a range. Not two base forms, but Super Saiyan, SSJ2 and SSJ3, everything in between until they feel the need to use SSJB, and that's one base form with a huge amount of power. I never argued against SSJB being SSJ on top of their base up there with the Gods.

[ekrolo2]

To be fair, the original manga left a lot of shit up in the air in regards to power related topics. And the guidebooks helped fill in the blanks. I'm not saying at all that his excuses Super's lack of details, but there's nothing with the previously established tidbits or information, especially from the creator of franchise, being applied to bridge the gap left in regards to connecting one event or piece of information to the next. Especially since the event of Resurrection F apply directly to Super as the events of the movie are retold in the anime.

This is still an egregious problem for me. We have to hunt down a 2 year old magazine thing that predates Super's entire existence just to make sense of how Goku and Vegeta's powers work. Fuck Disney and their EU BS, this is far worse. It's like if the only explanation for Batman's various skills and abilities literally was just "He's Batman!".

The fundamental abilities & rules for the protagonists are buried in a side magazine thing and never, not once, well exposited throughout Super's 2 year run and almost 90 episode count. That's almost hilariously convoluted. Especially since it didn't need to happen like this, give Saiyan Beyond God and easily identifable trait to make it separate from regular Base OR just keep SSGod around after the ritual and make Blue the strongest strength level.

It's not like weaker SS forms magically fart out of existence when a strong one arrives, you don't see anyone lose the ability to turn SS1 if they get 2 or 2 if they get 3 or 3 if they get 4.

Then there's Toriyama discarding certain things like the 6-10-15 scale and SSGod never coming back to consider as well. Can't have things being less needlessly convoluted.

[dragon boss z]

The problems is the writers don't even know how strong Goku is.

[TheMikado]

So, fans need to be handed... Never mind the people who have always told you to trust Akira Toriyama's influence on the anime (DB Super) based on the original manga run events that depicted some transformations as shortcuts to their full power. It happened when Cell showed off against Trunks by bulking up and he had access to his full power without deformation. Just... don't take it to one extreme where two base forms need to exist. It's ranging power, like Goku going from regular SSJ up to half of his full power, and then all of it in front of Korin and Cell.

If it were ranged then all the yellow SSJ forms would be redundant when he could use God power instead. When you stack SSJ on top of God power you get blue not yellow.

As it would be redundant for Cell to bulk up against Trunks when he did it. Come on, you guys are arguing about visual clues for their power, and you have it even with a range. Not two base forms, but Super Saiyan, SSJ2 and SSJ3, everything in between until they feel the need to use SSJB, and that's one base form with a huge amount of power. I never argued against SSJB being SSJ on top of their base up there with the Gods.

Except your Cell example is incorrect. Cell was merely showing he COULD increase his power at will, same of Grade 3 Trunks and it does, but at the expense of speed and stamina. There was absolutely a correlation between the visual cue and power and Cell did not have the same level of power in his none deformed state as his bulked up form.

[Lord Beerus]

To be fair, the original manga left a lot of shit up in the air in regards to power related topics. And the guidebooks helped fill in the blanks. I'm not saying at all that his excuses Super's lack of details, but there's nothing with the previously established tidbits or information, especially from the creator of franchise, being applied to bridge the gap left in regards to connecting one event or piece of information to the next. Especially since the event of Resurrection F apply directly to Super as the events of the movie are retold in the anime.

This is still an egregious problem for me. We have to hunt down a 2 year old magazine thing that predates Super's entire existence just to make sense of how Goku and Vegeta's powers work. Fuck Disney and their EU BS, this is far worse. It's like if the only explanation for Batman's various skills and abilities literally was just "He's Batman!".

The fundamental abilities & rules for the protagonists are buried in a side magazine thing and never, not once, well exposited throughout Super's 2 year run and almost 90 episode count. That's almost hilariously convoluted. Especially since it didn't need to happen like this, give Saiyan Beyond God and easily identifable trait to make it separate from regular Base OR just keep SSGod around after the ritual and make Blue the strongest strength level.

It's not like weaker SS forms magically fart out of existence when a strong one arrives, you don't see anyone lose the ability to turn SS1 if they get 2 or 2 if they get 3 or 3 if they get 4.

Then there's Toriyama discarding certain things like the 6-10-15 scale and SSGod never coming back to consider as well. Can't have things being less needlessly convoluted.

I won't lie, Super could have/should have done a better job at explaining this. But it's very obvious Toriyama changed his tune on how strong he wanted Goku and Vegeta to be while Super was airing and while the manga was being written. Hell, Toriyama himself outright stated that he has no plans on Goku and Vegeta surpassing Beerus. And that tidbit was provided after the BOG and ROF retelling, where the whole 6-10-15 was still applicable. So it was obvious that Toriyama had a last minute change of heart on how strong he wanted Goku and Vegeta to be in the new material. And because of this Toei and Toyotaro had to all of a sudden drastically change the power hierarchy and influx of the power scaling in narrative(s).

Basically, and both the anime and manga were caught up in the middle of the this mess of Toriyama arbitrarily changing how strong he wanted to make the cast. With the anime having the whole "SSJ2 Raging Vegeta = 10% Beerus" moment and the manga having Base Goku practically no sell a ki blast attack at point blank range from SSJB Vegeta. Both the anime and the manga got fucked over by Toriyama's indecisiveness. But the format of the manga allows any change to be more easy and fluid, while the weekly anime, that has episodes written and animation produced several weeks in advance, would have a tougher time dealing with this. I hope that the anime does gloss over this at some point.

The problems is the writers don't even know how strong Goku is.

And neither does Toriyama.

[ekrolo2]

To be fair, the original manga left a lot of shit up in the air in regards to power related topics. And the guidebooks helped fill in the blanks. I'm not saying at all that his excuses Super's lack of details, but there's nothing with the previously established tidbits or information, especially from the creator of franchise, being applied to bridge the gap left in regards to connecting one event or piece of information to the next. Especially since the event of Resurrection F apply directly to Super as the events of the movie are retold in the anime.

This is still an egregious problem for me. We have to hunt down a 2 year old magazine thing that predates Super's entire existence just to make sense of how Goku and Vegeta's powers work. Fuck Disney and their EU BS, this is far worse. It's like if the only explanation for Batman's various skills and abilities literally was just "He's Batman!".

The fundamental abilities & rules for the protagonists are buried in a side magazine thing and never, not once, well exposited throughout Super's 2 year run and almost 90 episode count. That's almost hilariously convoluted. Especially since it didn't need to happen like this, give Saiyan Beyond God and easily identifable trait to make it separate from regular Base OR just keep SSGod around after the ritual and make Blue the strongest strength level.

It's not like weaker SS forms magically fart out of existence when a strong one arrives, you don't see anyone lose the ability to turn SS1 if they get 2 or 2 if they get 3 or 3 if they get 4.

Then there's Toriyama discarding certain things like the 6-10-15 scale and SSGod never coming back to consider as well. Can't have things being less needlessly convoluted.

I won't lie, Super could have/should have done a better job at explaining this. But it's very obvious Toriyama changed his tune on how strong he wanted Goku and Vegeta to be while Super was airing and while the manga was being written. Hell, Toriyama himself outright stated that he has no plans on Goku and Vegeta surpassing Beerus. And that tidbit was provided after the BOG and ROF retelling, where the whole 6-10-15 was still applicable. So it was obvious that Toriyama had a last minute change of heart on how strong he wanted Goku and Vegeta to be in the new material. And because of this Toei and Toyotaro had to all of a sudden drastically change the power hierarchy and influx of the power scaling in narrative(s).

Basically, and both the anime and manga were caught up in the middle of the this mess of Toriyama arbitrarily changing how strong he wanted to make the cast. With the anime having the whole "SSJ2 Raging Vegeta = 10% Beerus" moment and the manga having Base Goku practically no sell a ki blast attack at point blank range from SSJB Vegeta. Both the anime and the manga got fucked over by Toriyama's indecisiveness. But the format of the manga allows any change to be more easy and fluid, while the weekly anime, that has episodes written and animation produced several weeks in advance, would have a tougher time dealing with this. I hope that the anime does gloss over this at some point.

The problems is the writers don't even know how strong Goku is.

And neither does Toriyama.

Oh this is a multifaceted issue, no doubt about that. I just find it absurd that the powers of the shows protagonists require the digging up of an 2 year old magazine tidbit that predates the existence of the show we're talking about right now just to kind of make sense of it. It isn't even like the timeline chart Toei released to try and clear this up, most people will NEVER find out about this magazine thing and even its validity right now is dubious.

I really don't think its too harsh to call this some of the most fundamentally broken writing ever.

[Lord Beerus]

This is still an egregious problem for me. We have to hunt down a 2 year old magazine thing that predates Super's entire existence just to make sense of how Goku and Vegeta's powers work. Fuck Disney and their EU BS, this is far worse. It's like if the only explanation for Batman's various skills and abilities literally was just "He's Batman!".

The fundamental abilities & rules for the protagonists are buried in a side magazine thing and never, not once, well exposited throughout Super's 2 year run and almost 90 episode count. That's almost hilariously convoluted. Especially since it didn't need to happen like this, give Saiyan Beyond God and easily identifable trait to make it separate from regular Base OR just keep SSGod around after the ritual and make Blue the strongest strength level.

It's not like weaker SS forms magically fart out of existence when a strong one arrives, you don't see anyone lose the ability to turn SS1 if they get 2 or 2 if they get 3 or 3 if they get 4.

Then there's Toriyama discarding certain things like the 6-10-15 scale and SSGod never coming back to consider as well. Can't have things being less needlessly convoluted.

I won't lie, Super could have/should have done a better job at explaining this. But it's very obvious Toriyama changed his tune on how strong he wanted Goku and Vegeta to be while Super was airing and while the manga was being written. Hell, Toriyama himself outright stated that he has no plans on Goku and Vegeta surpassing Beerus. And that tidbit was provided after the BOG and ROF retelling, where the whole 6-10-15 was still applicable. So it was obvious that Toriyama had a last minute change of heart on how strong he wanted Goku and Vegeta to be in the new material. And because of this Toei and Toyotaro had to all of a sudden drastically change the power hierarchy and influx of the power scaling in narrative(s).

Basically, and both the anime and manga were caught up in the middle of the this mess of Toriyama arbitrarily changing how strong he wanted to make the cast. With the anime having the whole "SSJ2 Raging Vegeta = 10% Beerus" moment and the manga having Base Goku practically no sell a ki blast attack at point blank range from SSJB Vegeta. Both the anime and the manga got fucked over by Toriyama's indecisiveness. But the format of the manga allows any change to be more easy and fluid, while the weekly anime, that has episodes written and animation produced several weeks in advance, would have a tougher time dealing with this. I hope that the anime does gloss over this at some point.

The problems is the writers don't even know how strong Goku is.

And neither does Toriyama.

Oh this is a multifaceted issue, no doubt about that. I just find it absurd that the powers of the shows protagonists require the digging up of an 2 year old magazine tidbit that predates the existence of the show we're talking about right now just to kind of make sense of it. It isn't even like the timeline chart Toei released to try and clear this up, most people will NEVER find out about this magazine thing and even its validity right now is dubious.

I really don't think its too harsh to call this some of the most fundamentally broken writing ever.

Well... Super, both the anime and manga, does its best, in their respective formats, with a barebones plot outline from a man that specializes in making up shit as he goes along and actively purposely forgets previously established plot points and so that has enough brain capacity to come up with and store new content. I think calling it "some of the most fundamentally broken writing ever" is a bit too harsh. It could be a lot, and I mean a whole hell of a lot better, but it's far from the worst. Especially in a fighting show. And especially in Dragon Ball.

[ekrolo2]

I didn't mean in a general sense, I mean in the fact that the fundemantal rules for how it's protagonists powers function can only be found in a vague magazine tidbit that predates the show they're currently staring in. Not an in-universe explanation, not a tidbit made by Toei, a freaking magazine page that most people will never see.

That's some shit writing right there.

[Lord Beerus]

I didn't mean in a general sense, I mean in the fact that the fundemantal rules for how it's protagonists powers function can only be found in a vague magazine tidbit that predates the show they're currently staring in. Not an in-universe explanation, not a tidbit made by Toei, a freaking magazine page that most people will never see.

That's some shit writing right there.

Some people still don't know about what is truly stated in the guidebooks as not all of them have been translated. Hell, some fans don't even know that the Daizenshuu's even exist. Or that V-Jump and WSJ have provided battle powers in the past to help fill in the blanks for how strong characters were in the story, while the story was still going on. Not to mention that some information provided from the Daizenshuu's, V-Jump and WSJ, especially in regards to character strength (i.e. battle powers) can sometimes outright contradict what happens in the manga or make the perspective of the story unnecessarily confusing and convoluted.