Should Super Saiyan have been a one time thing?

[PsionicWarrior]

DB and most particularly Z has ALWAYS been about powerups and getting to the next level, not liking that element is very strange IMO

[Gog]

DB and most particularly Z has ALWAYS been about powerups and getting to the next level, not liking that element is very strange IMO

No, people here want that, but they also don't want stuff like super saiyan three happening again.

Spoiler it did

[PsionicWarrior]

OP asks if SSJ should have been a ONE TIME thing, and some people say yes.

Also as much as people don't like SSJ3 it was awesome, just like Trunks Future form lol
Yes there is complains because asspulls yada yada, but really it's all awesome moments. I was more annoyed with Trunks, but that's because of Super's pacing.

[Gog]

OP asks if SSJ should have been a ONE TIME thing, and some people say yes.

Also as much as people don't like SSJ3 it was awesome, just like Trunks Future form lol
Yes there is complains because asspulls yada yada, but really it's all awesome moments. I was more annoyed with Trunks, but that's because of Super's pacing.

So, you don't mind ass pulls? You must like Bra's sensu bean stunt. You must have loved when Cell magically managed to remember his perfect form, you must have-HNNGH I just cannot comprehend, lack of interest in, s-s-tory... HNNGHH

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Nejishiki]

*zoon*

That wasn't the purpose of my comparison. I was addressing the mindset of believing something was pointless because of upcoming events, not the techniques themselves. It feels like trivialization is coming from your end rather than what the story itself did (at least that's what I'm reading from your initial messages). Traveling the journey unveils natural developments. There's a consistent pattern of setup, execution, & evolution. Options are consistently exhausted & revitalized, creating unique events at every turn. That's part of what I'm covering about Super Saiyan being setup as limiting due to characters believing they reached their own limits through an awesome power.

What exempts Dragon Ball from being a typical shounen is how characters are organically snapped into reason (which I detailed how it was properly set). Because there's always someone stronger & always methods to surpass your best works, the concept of breaking past the Super Saiyan "wall" creates an interesting subversion. Their standards weren't high enough so it forces them to think outside of the box, crafting an engaging journey you wouldn't get from locking their powers. Instead of avoiding the subject, its tackled outright. Their innovations are exciting because they're backed into corners in a believable manner before solving how their advantage became disadvantages. It's a simple tool executed well & you lose some of that if you only beeline to the endgame.

Whether the next arc featured stronger antagonists or not isn't the point. The merit of cybernetics doesn't devalue anything previous antagonists accomplished because we're focusing on a different type of setting. The story goes out of its way to remind the audience about Super Saiyan's might. It creates a false sense of security under the pretense of preparation & short-term success before everyone's preconceptions are proved wrong. They failed in the alternate future without foresight; They're failing now despite their foresight. It's one thing to tell, but another to show. Would one be satisfied with Future Trunks' words alone? They can't rely on their old thoughts anymore & as the story progresses, we're treated to the fruits of their ideas before we see how short-sighted they were. Something interesting is always being done with Super Saiyan instead of keeping it away from the audience's eyes. The growth of its mastery & how we get there feels right.

[PsionicWarrior]

So, you don't mind ass pulls? You must like Bra's sensu bean stunt. You must have loved when Cell magically managed to remember his perfect form, you must have-HNNGH I just cannot comprehend, lack of interest in, s-s-tory... HNNGHH

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Again it was not magically but from zenkai, I don't know why people completely ignore this when it comes to Cell lol
Obviously not what I mentioned though, since I meant first time anyone transforms above his level lol
And SSJ3 even if an after-thought at least has a semblance of background, if you pay attention to the story lol

[Gog]

So, you don't mind ass pulls? You must like Bra's sensu bean stunt. You must have loved when Cell magically managed to remember his perfect form, you must have-HNNGH I just cannot comprehend, lack of interest in, s-s-tory... HNNGHH

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Again it was not magically but from zenkai, I don't know why people completely ignore this when it comes to Cell lol
Obviously not what I mentioned though, since I meant first time anyone transforms above his level lol
And SSJ3 even if an after-thought at least has a semblance of background, if you pay attention to the story lol

No, if he had a Zenkai that would mean, that'd he'd be in his imperfect stage. Would actually be cool, if he teleported in and adsorbed, 18, and 17.
SS3 has, no background, only being the ascended form of super saiyan, there's no foreshadowing, no build up, or even the tiniest semblance of any of that, with the form. Also why do you end every sentance with lol, its making me annoyed and when Gog gets annoyed, well 'ho, ho. ho' you'll see what I mean.

[TheUltimateNinja]

*zoon*

That wasn't the purpose of my comparison. I was addressing the mindset of believing something was pointless because of upcoming events, not the techniques themselves. It feels like trivialization is coming from your end rather than what the story itself did (at least that's what I'm reading from your initial messages). Traveling the journey unveils natural developments. There's a consistent pattern of setup, execution, & evolution. Options are consistently exhausted & revitalized, creating unique events at every turn. That's part of what I'm covering about Super Saiyan being setup as limiting due to characters believing they reached their own limits through an awesome power.

What exempts Dragon Ball from being a typical shounen is how characters are organically snapped into reason (which I detailed how it was properly set). Because there's always someone stronger & always methods to surpass your best works, the concept of breaking past the Super Saiyan "wall" creates an interesting subversion. Their standards weren't high enough so it forces them to think outside of the box, crafting an engaging journey you wouldn't get from locking their powers. Instead of avoiding the subject, its tackled outright. Their innovations are exciting because they're backed into corners in a believable manner before solving how their advantage became disadvantages. It's a simple tool executed well & you lose some of that if you only beeline to the endgame.

Whether the next arc featured stronger antagonists or not isn't the point. The merit of cybernetics doesn't devalue anything previous antagonists accomplished because we're focusing on a different type of setting. The story goes out of its way to remind the audience about Super Saiyan's might. It creates a false sense of security under the pretense of preparation & short-term success before everyone's preconceptions are proved wrong. They failed in the alternate future without foresight; They're failing now despite their foresight. It's one thing to tell, but another to show. Would one be satisfied with Future Trunks' words alone? They can't rely on their old thoughts anymore & as the story progresses, we're treated to the fruits of their ideas before we see how short-sighted they were. Something interesting is always being done with Super Saiyan instead of keeping it away from the audience's eyes. The growth of its mastery & how we get there feels right.

That's not the point I'm arguing. As I said earlier I have no problem with the Grade forms since they're simply variants of SSJ, it's the forms like SSJ2 and SSJ3 that eclipse SSJ that I take issue with. Especially SSJ3 since it pretty much came out of nowhere, Gohan's SSJ2 could at least at that time be described as simply the right way to use SSJ. I even recall it being referred to as Grade V in some official material before it was officially called SSJ2. Though I would prefer Goku being the only SSJ, I'm fine with the others having the form as well.

And forcing the characters to realize they need to surpass their current limitations by making them face someone stronger isn't exactly some groundbreaking subversion, even Shonen like Bleach and Naruto use this trope.

And your second point isn't really unique either, and is also present in other Shonen. Granted, many of these were inspired by Dragon Ball but the point remains, right now this is pretty much standard story telling.

For example, let's take Bleach. Bankai is supposed to be the ultimate power, the end all be all for a Shinigami, somewhat similar to SSJ for Saiyans. However in the next arc the Arrancar show up, the strongest of which far surpass even the Captains' Bankais in power. This forces the Shinigami to improve their Bankais by training and developing new techniques, whereas prior to Aizen's betrayal they had considered themselves nigh invincible. They also knew in advance that Aizen would attack Karakura town, but despite all of their foresight and preparation Aizen still prevails despite the fact that they had the aid of the Visoreds and later Urahara, Isshin and Yoruichi.

Ichigo himself realizes that his Bankai alone won't be close to enough to beat Aizen & the Espada, so he attempts to tame his Hollow and forcibly harness its power. He succeeds, but this is inefficient since his Hollow is constantly working against him and draining his energy, due to this his mask has a time limit and once it runs out he's left completely exhausted. This is kind of like Vegeta and Trunks using the Grade forms because though it seemingly make sense at first, it turns out to be wrong approach. He later learns that his Shinigami and Hollow powers are in fact one and the same, simply two sides of the same coin. He'd been mistakenly treating his Hollow as an enemy whereas he should have accepted it as a part of himself just like his Zanpakuto, once he realizes this he is able to access his full power the right way, without any stamina issues or external manifestations like the mask. This is akin to Goku realizing that Grades II & III were useless and the best way to power up is to simply master the form in its normal state.

So really, having the villains turn out stronger than the heroes despite the heroes recently unlocking some uber powerful form (Bankai, SSJ, Kyuubi Mode etc.) isn't a surprise at all since it's standard progression in Shonen, at this point it would be far more of a shock if the heroes were actually able to beat the villains first try.

[Nejishiki]

I can't comment on those series specifically but the overall point is its execution is well-done. Super Saiyan isn't a last-resort power that has to be held back by something or the other. It's powerful, remains powerful, & we directly keep its usage while twisting the story around the fact. It's playing keep-away that turns me away. It's not the general idea of surpassing limits I'm praising but how some less-than-stellar, boring tropes are redirected or dropped creatively (namely the game changer remaining the ultimate game changer). My description focused on how natural it flowed, after all. The idea that Super Saiyan was overused based on looking at the story as a whole seems to mitigate the real impact it had. Sure, it might seem bad in bulletpoint form but the way it's paced is always with purpose & particular advancement. Goku's 3 contains the weakest entrance yet it still keeps dynamics interesting. If by second point, you mean the twists I referenced, it doesn't particularly need to special as long as it's done interestingly. That was accomplished all the way up to Gohan's moment. I have a difficult time imagining the warnings be taken at face value to immediately skip to the endgame. It's not really engaging that way & lacks growth since it's a linear pathway.

[PsionicWarrior]

No, if he had a Zenkai that would mean, that'd he'd be in his imperfect stage.

Since when does Zenkai stops working mate I haven't heard of anything like that lol
Perfect or Imperfect form, it should still work lol