Cast Strength Progression

[Zeru14]

Am I the only bothered how Toriyama stopped powering up the non-saiyan characters as the story went along, he introduced all these training methods and power ups, but strangely chose to not have other Z-Fighters use them to improve themselves. He started out fine at first with having the Turtle/Crane School students train under Korin, Kami and Mr. Popo like Goku did using the same training methods and all of them improved, also in the Frieza Saga when Krillin got his potential unlocked by Guru the first logical thing he did was of course realize that Gohan should get it too. Piccolo fused with Nail, allowing him to handle Frieza in his second form, and after training with Goku and Gohan for three years, was strong enough to handle Android 19 and 20 on his own, after fusing with Kami, Piccolo according to Android 16 was stronger than 17 and 18, and was superior to Imperfect Cell before his mass absorption of earthlings.

[Beyond]

The only one that bothers me is Piccolo. Because he was gaining power like mad and then it comes to a crashing halt. He must have hit a wall. Oh well, he had a better run than most non saiyans. People will say that it's too late for them. They can never be relevant strength wise again, but at the end of the day, it's not up to anyone but Toriyama. I do think that having at least one strong non saiyan in the main cast of fighters(so not beerus. The lazy shit.) is nice. If skill and intelligence mattered in dragon ball, there might be ways to circumvent things. but that isn't usually the case, so you're either strong, bulma, or useless.

[Israelite Wolfman]

NO you're not, I'm also a fan of the Human Z-Fighters (sans Master Roshi, at least not since Resurrection 'F') and believe that the old squad should have not been neglected for the sake of selling SSJ toys and merchandise in Japan.

Tien, Yamcha, Chiaotzu and Piccolo were on King Kai's Planet for a few days and rose drastically in power, the Humans went from being less than 2000 each to be enough to beat the Ginyu Force without any troubles (don't care about the "non-canon" nerds, go collect stamps or something). Then Piccolo was revived to fight Frieza and went on getting powered up so drastically to over 1,000,000 by merging with Nail (who thought that Piccolo was already stronger than him when first encountering him, meaning he went from being 3500 to over 42,000 in less than 6 days in King Kai's Planet), but these guys stayed there for almost a year: Yamcha for another 130 days and Tien & Chiaotzu for another 260 days, it was plentty of time for them who were much stronger than Goku was when he trained there to pick up the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb techniques. BUT TORIYAMA'S LAZY WRITING KICKED IN AGAIN AND WE DIDN'T HAD THEM CAPABLE OF DOING SO WHEN RESURRECTED. Then we have Krillin's case, one can only wonder if he got to arrive to King Kai's Planet for training after being blown to dust on Namek, but even if he WHO IS A FANS' FAVORITE WORLDWIDE did got there, he wasn't "blessed" with the option of learning these techniques, either.

I'm aware of the fact video games gave Krillin, Yamcha & Tien Kaioken as a "transformation" but it's not enough as it's not shown in the series/manga thus it never happened. I still believe that Tien, Yamcha & Chiaotzu should have went through some power boost a-la Guru when they were dead, so does Guru who could have been summoned to King Kai's Planet like the Ginyu Force were, so he can unlock their potential and give them some room for improvement before being revived.

Instead of having them training in the old methods for the Androids' arrival, Bulma should have built them a gravity chamber where they could raise their limits and power up even more in the 3 years gap, they (Chiaotzu included) could have contribute so much more than just commenteries in the front lines. The Fusion Dance would have been great for Yamcha & Tien to be affective in the Buu Saga, the "Birth of Tiencha" - who should gain enough power to rival Piccolo of that time in strengh, even if it's not enough to take out Majin or Super Buu - in one episode would be fine by me.

The Old Kai's Potential Unlocked should have been shown prior this upcoming Universe Survival Arc, yet I believe that these Earthlings could contribute more than what is shown in BoG (where Toriyama wanted EVERYONE to fight Beerus before Goku's arrival, beofre Toei dismissed his idea cuz it'll generate a 120 minutes long movie instead of a 90 minutes one) & RoF (why the heck did Yamcha & Chiaotzu had to sit this one out if EVEN JACO AND MASTER ROSHI WERE HAVING FUN THERE?!).

[Nejishiki]

Well, we never discovered how North Kaio's training benefited Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu, & Piccolo's strength in the original story. It's completely ambiguous so I think claiming that they improved dramatically is a bit much. Of course, when one considers the Dragon Ball Z adaption, their level of skill "dramatically" becomes higher & lower simultaneously. With such an obvious discrepancy between both sources, I believe that's evidence against merchandising wanting to "leave them behind". The simple answer is that Toriyama likely doesn't have ideas for those characters anymore. Rather than force something, he moves on & I think that's fine! One shouldn't artificially craft "magic", as they say. We don't need to assume ill will or "laziness" out of everyone & everything, you know. I do find it curious that you grant select extra materials your blessings yet video game stories aren't enough. They're a part of the franchise, too, albeit separate continuities of the story.

[Israelite Wolfman]

Well, we never discovered how North Kaio's training benefited Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu, & Piccolo's strength in the original story. It's completely ambiguous so I think claiming that they improved dramatically is a bit much. Of course, when one considers the Dragon Ball Z adaption, their level of skill "dramatically" becomes higher & lower simultaneously. With such an obvious discrepancy between both sources, I believe that's evidence against merchandising wanting to "leave them behind". The simple answer is that Toriyama likely doesn't have ideas for those characters anymore. Rather than force something, he moves on & I think that's fine! One shouldn't artificially craft "magic", as they say. We don't need to assume ill will or "laziness" out of everyone & everything, you know. I do find it curious that you grant select extra materials your blessings yet video game stories aren't enough. They're a part of the franchise, too, albeit separate continuities of the story.

Video games don't fit into the franchise canonicity, if it did then Yamcha should have been able to use villainous mode in the series as well, Krillin & Android 18 should remember 2 years after Kid Buu they've took care of Friezs with their "positive energy" etc. It's just side stories which has nothing to do with the anime or manga besides using it's characters. And Toriyama's lazy, even he admits it, he doesn't even think his draft notes are worthy of being called "writing".

[Nejishiki]

I never argued for video games stories "fitting" into separate continuities (& on that note, it bears mention that Dragon Ball has no defined "canon" to begin with). I merely elaborated that they're just as valid in their own, individual worlds & can be used for support, if applicable to a particular subject. Yamcha's Dragon Ball Xenoverse abilities were developed after the original story so it's unreasonable to expect its inclusion so soon, if ever. I'll still maintain that it's valid within its own universe alongside your additive examples of separate continuity details. Lastly, running away with Toriyama's admission of shortcuts ignores the context of what he accomplished, which is far from lazy & has no bearing on his decisions with character usage.

[Zeru14]

Well I wouldn't call Toriyama lazy per se, but its clear he doesn't feel the need to put much effort into developing his cast as other writers like Kishimoto did in Naruto. He did this at first, but pretty much stopped after the Frieza Saga. He's inconsistent with his characters training methods, power progression and sense of community as pointed out before. Kishimoto in Naruto would logically have any characters that trained under the same master, learn the same techniques, for example those who signed a contract with the Toads could learn Saga Mode if they had high chakra reserves, so Jiraiya, Minato and Naruto all attained it, as a form of community characters in Naruto also trained and learned from each other to help improve Naruto taught Konohamaru the Rasengan, who learned it from Jiraiya who learned from his former student Minato. Also when characters wanted to improve they stepped up and sought out a master to do so, Sakura wanted to stop feeling like dead weight so she asked Tsunade to take her as a student, Kishimoto also had his characters specialize in fighting styles and techniques(secret clan, bloodline) so they could always contribute in their own way.

These like this could be done in Dragonball as well if Toriyama felt like it. For example Yamcha could've learned Kaioken from King Kai and taught it Krillin in preparation for the Androids, symbolizing the sense of community and growing stronger from each other. Tien could've awakened special powers with his third eye, maybe be like Despero from DC Comics, who can cast Illusions, Mind Control, Mind Read, Astral Project and Possession, Chiaotzu can have a power up technique, where he uses psionic energy to increase him physical strength and speed. Master Roshi could've learn to flight from Krillin or Goku.

[Israelite Wolfman]

Let's summarize it with the simple example of Yu Yu Hakusho, where all Z-Fighters' equiviliants were kept relevant as the plot proceeded to it's very end. Even the Chiaotzu-esque guy, probably the author, Yoshihiro Togashi, saw how Toriyama treated his characters and decided he won't make this mistake. All got powered up to over 50,000 spiritual power level (slightly over Younger Toguro = Frieza's parallel in a sense) in the end due to special training session that made them suitable for showing up in the conclusive, not having Tien dismiss them with the excuse a bunch of weaklings were "too dangerous for them".

[floofychan333]

BUT TORIYAMA'S LAZY WRITING KICKED IN AGAIN AND WE DIDN'T HAD THEM CAPABLE OF DOING SO WHEN RESURRECTED.

I'm surprised someone other than me thinks that Akira Toriyama got lazy when writing at times.

[Israelite Wolfman]

I'm surprised someone other than me thinks that Akira Toriyama got lazy when writing at times.

Been saying that for years now, the case of not casting Yamcha & Chiaotzu in Resurrection 'F' made it clearer for me.

[Zephyr]

Yeah, that's started to bother me as of late, as well. There's also the RoSaT which out of the non-Saiyans, only Piccolo used. For a lot of these (specifically the more intense gravity training), some of them might not be able to handle it. However, by utilizing some of the lower level methods, and sparring together using those methods, they could gradually work their way up toward those higher levels being accessible. Theoretically, there really shouldn't be a limit to how strong anyone could get, lack of Namekian fusion power ups and Super Saiyan transformations be damned. Humans might technically have more fragile bodies than the two other races mentioned, but they can still strengthen their bodies with ki.

BUT TORIYAMA'S LAZY WRITING KICKED IN AGAIN AND WE DIDN'T HAD THEM CAPABLE OF DOING SO WHEN RESURRECTED.

I'm surprised someone other than me thinks that Akira Toriyama got lazy when writing at times.

Who isn't at this point acutely aware of Toriyama's extensive self-admitted laziness?

That said, I wouldn't call this a problem of lazy writing. It just seems more like he wasn't interested in utilizing the human characters as much anymore, unfortunately. If he did, there certainly would have been logical ways for them to keep up, as the OP shows.

[The gr]

Well you see toriyama never think outside of the box he don't know how to use his cast properly he only wank the Saiyan and give them cheap power up and that's his weakness as a writer

[kinisking]

Tien, Yamcha, Chiaotzu and Piccolo were on King Kai's Planet for a few days and rose drastically in power, the Humans went from being less than 2000 each to be enough to beat the Ginyu Force without any troubles (don't care about the "non-canon" nerds, go collect stamps or something). Then Piccolo was revived to fight Frieza and went on getting powered up so drastically to over 1,000,000 by merging with Nail (who thought that Piccolo was already stronger than him when first encountering him, meaning he went from being 3500 to over 42,000 in less than 6 days in King Kai's Planet), but these guys stayed there for almost a year: Yamcha for another 130 days and Tien & Chiaotzu for another 260 days, it was plentty of time for them who were much stronger than Goku was when he trained there to pick up the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb techniques. BUT TORIYAMA'S LAZY WRITING KICKED IN AGAIN AND WE DIDN'T HAD THEM CAPABLE OF DOING SO WHEN RESURRECTED. Then we have Krillin's case, one can only wonder if he got to arrive to King Kai's Planet for training after being blown to dust on Namek, but even if he WHO IS A FANS' FAVORITE WORLDWIDE did got there, he wasn't "blessed" with the option of learning these techniques, either.

I'm aware of the fact video games gave Krillin, Yamcha & Tien Kaioken as a "transformation" but it's not enough as it's not shown in the series/manga thus it never happened. I still believe that Tien, Yamcha & Chiaotzu should have went through some power boost a-la Guru when they were dead, so does Guru who could have been summoned to King Kai's Planet like the Ginyu Force were, so he can unlock their potential and give them some room for improvement before being revived.

Instead of having them training in the old methods for the Androids' arrival, Bulma should have built them a gravity chamber where they could raise their limits and power up even more in the 3 years gap, they (Chiaotzu included) could have contribute so much more than just commenteries in the front lines. The Fusion Dance would have been great for Yamcha & Tien to be affective in the Buu Saga, the "Birth of Tiencha" - who should gain enough power to rival Piccolo of that time in strengh, even if it's not enough to take out Majin or Super Buu - in one episode would be fine by me.

Pick one way of thinking please.

The humans should always be able to be equal to Goku's base form though. It'd be hard to be equal to his super Saiyan forms considering they were never able to surpass his base form in Dragonball. I wouldn't mind a transformation for humans but people would call that fan service as if it's a bad thing.

Well you see toriyama never think outside of the box he don't know how to use his cast properly he only wank the Saiyan and give them cheap power up and that's his weakness as a writer

Yup.. toriyama never gives cheap power ups to the non-saiyans. Piccolo just had two huge power ups and krillin had one huge power up through hard training right ?

[Israelite Wolfman]

Pick one way of thinking please.

I know it may be hard for you but next time try to read the entire thread instead of quoting and bolding phrases. I've explained my view of video games in comparison to the main plot/storyline.

[kinisking]

Pick one way of thinking please.

I know it may be hard for you but next time try to read the entire thread instead of quoting and bolding phrases. I've explained my view of video games in comparison to the main plot/storyline.

Yeah you're right, it is hard for me to read your blabbering and the pipe dreams you've uselessly been clinging on to for years.

Again, your view points are still extremely contradictory. You make fun of people for caring about canon and non-canon then you bring up the canonicity of video games. Do you care about canon or not? If you do, who gives you the right to make fun of people who have a different opinion on canon? The exact same argument you're using to say the video games don't fit into the canon of the series are very similar to the arguments those "non-canon nerds" use to speak about the filler in DBZ.

[Zephyr]

The humans should always be able to be equal to Goku's base form though. It'd be hard to be equal to his super Saiyan forms considering they were never able to surpass his base form in Dragonball. I wouldn't mind a transformation for humans but people would call that fan service as if it's a bad thing.

Give them the "Ultimate" power-up. Then, since having a stronger training partner tends to mean you get stronger, have them all spar together in the RoSaT for more gains in a short time. The amount of durability their bodies ought to have by that point should be pretty high, and as such so should the levels of Kaioken that they could reach.

That seems like a very straightforward means of immensely powering up, with enough vagueness as to the limits of the various methods involved that I think it ultimately serves as a sufficient counterpart to Goku's Super Saiyan forms.

[kinisking]

The humans should always be able to be equal to Goku's base form though. It'd be hard to be equal to his super Saiyan forms considering they were never able to surpass his base form in Dragonball. I wouldn't mind a transformation for humans but people would call that fan service as if it's a bad thing.

Give them the "Ultimate" power-up. Then, since having a stronger training partner tends to mean you get stronger, have them all spar together in the RoSaT for more gains in a short time. The amount of durability their bodies ought to have by that point should be pretty high, and as such so should the levels of Kaioken that they could reach.

That seems like a very straightforward means of immensely powering up, with enough vagueness as to the limits of the various methods involved that I think it ultimately serves as a sufficient counterpart to Goku's Super Saiyan forms.

That seems like a cool idea but I'm suspicious about how much stronger they'd actually get. Gohan only got do strong because he's known for his immense potential.

[DefinitiveDubs]

BUT TORIYAMA'S LAZY WRITING KICKED IN AGAIN AND WE DIDN'T HAD THEM CAPABLE OF DOING SO WHEN RESURRECTED.

I'm surprised someone other than me thinks that Akira Toriyama got lazy when writing at times.

I equate Toriyama to George Lucas in that the writing and plot itself are not why his work is so great.

It's pretty obvious that Toriyama has just been making it up as he goes. At least he didn't pull a GT and ruin Z's ending.

[Zeru14]

The humans should always be able to be equal to Goku's base form though. It'd be hard to be equal to his super Saiyan forms considering they were never able to surpass his base form in Dragonball. I wouldn't mind a transformation for humans but people would call that fan service as if it's a bad thing.

Give them the "Ultimate" power-up. Then, since having a stronger training partner tends to mean you get stronger, have them all spar together in the RoSaT for more gains in a short time. The amount of durability their bodies ought to have by that point should be pretty high, and as such so should the levels of Kaioken that they could reach.

That seems like a very straightforward means of immensely powering up, with enough vagueness as to the limits of the various methods involved that I think it ultimately serves as a sufficient counterpart to Goku's Super Saiyan forms.

I would love to see Piccolo go through the ritual with Old Kai and get his potential fully releashed, I imagine "Ultimate Piccolo" would be about as strong as a SSJ3. Toriyama's problem is that he introduces all these training methods, masters and non-bloodline power ups, but never has any other characters but the Saiyans use them. Kaioken for Piccolo would've been nice, no way he can't learn it, Namekians have natural durable bodies and are prodigies at Ki Control.

[Israelite Wolfman]

Pick one way of thinking please.

I know it may be hard for you but next time try to read the entire thread instead of quoting and bolding phrases. I've explained my view of video games in comparison to the main plot/storyline.

Yeah you're right, it is hard for me to read your blabbering and the pipe dreams you've uselessly been clinging on to for years.

Again, your view points are still extremely contradictory. You make fun of people for caring about canon and non-canon then you bring up the canonicity of video games. Do you care about canon or not? If you do, who gives you the right to make fun of people who have a different opinion on canon? The exact same argument you're using to say the video games don't fit into the canon of the series are very similar to the arguments those "non-canon nerds" use to speak about the filler in DBZ.

I don't think u know me for "years" to make that statement, dorko, I'm only here for less than a month. I'm sorry to tell u this but not everyone like to suck "pipes"... There's a BIG difference between main series' chain of events to side stories which makes no impact on it, filler is something Toei animated even though Toriyama didn't drew it in his manga work.

Now let's ignore that comment I've referred to above, I think that the Pandoleum Room (the one Krillin, Yamcha, Tien & Chiaotzu used while training under Kami for the Saiyans) should have been used for the Humans in further sagas, like Tien who was on the Lookout while they began training for the Cell Games with the Room of Spirit and Time should have went there for a session - and maybe bring the others there too while preparing to the tournament, it was indeed affective on them with the illusion Saiyans, may have been helpful then again. Or even in the 7 years time gap to the Majin Buu Conflict as Tien and Chiaotzu never stopped training and used it to be prepared for any possible scenario or to simply "try to catch on with Goku".