Is it possible for Z Goku to only be at 416?

[TheUltimateNinja]

When you account for all of the following gaps, it's impossible.
Goku
BoDB > 21st Budokai: Shown, implied and stated to have improved tremendously, likely ~2x boost

21st Budokai > Red Ribbon Army/Uranai Baba: Goes from getting almost oneshotted by Tao to stomping him, stated to have become many times stronger by Karin. Also effortlessly beats opponents who Roshi says could have beaten his Budokai self. ~3x at least.

Uranai Baba > 22nd Budokai: Improves enough to surprise everyone, but this doesn't imply huge improvement. Also beats Kuririn who rivals Post-Karin Goku fairly easily using only match level power and is slightly stronger than Tenshinhan who wrecked Yamcha. Maybe ~30-40%.improvement.

22nd Budokai > Piccolo Daimao: Goes from getting stomped by Old Piccolo who was at less than half power to slightly stronger than Young Piccolo who is stated to be considerably more powerful than old Piccolo. Easily 3x+ boost.

Piccolo Daimao > 23rd Budokai: Becomes far stronger than Kami who effortlessly finger flicked his Post-God Water self. Is also slightly stronger than Piccolo who says he's many times stronger than Piccolo Daimao, he wasn't bluffing since it's that stated that everyone working together wouldn't stand a chance against exhausted Piccolo. This means that even while exhausted Piccolo is much stronger than Kami who is so far above Post-God Water Goku he can finger flick him, so his claim of being many times stronger than Piccolo Daimao is true. Again another ~3x boost.

[Saturnine]

Statements such as "many times stronger" were hyperbole by the time of DB. The gaps between characters were always much smaller in DB than they were in Z.

Also, BoDB Goku was said to be only at 10, and he got close to a hundred for the 21st Budokai, he was able to hold his own against Roshi there. Definitely more than a 2x boost.

[Darkprince410]

I've long held the theory that the battle powers that Goku and Piccolo had when using their techniques (the Kamehameha and Makankosappo, respectively) were their actual battle powers, and that they needed to have the focusing capabilities of those techniques to reach those levels at the time because, before then, we don't ever actually see someone simply powering up to raise their battle powers. Virtually every time during the course of Dragon Ball that someone's ki levels were stated to be raising during the course of a fight. Likewise, after the fight with Raditz, we don't really see ki attacks doing this anywhere near as much. Goku, for example, never raised his battle power through the use of the Kamehameha when performing the 4x Kaiou-ken Kamehameha against Vegeta (as shown in the Daizenshuu).

As such, I believe that Goku's actual battle power at the start of Z was 924+ and Piccolo's was 1,330, and the 416 and 408 that Raditz read off at the start was like their base line, unpowered up state.

[nickzambuto]

Statements such as "many times stronger" were hyperbole by the time of DB. The gaps between characters were always much smaller in DB than they were in Z.

Also, BoDB Goku was said to be only at 10, and he got close to a hundred for the 21st Budokai, he was able to hold his own against Roshi there. Definitely more than a 2x boost.

That's completely unsubstantiated. The power gaps never changed, the series was the same from start to finish. This is evidenced by all the statements of characters becoming "many times" more powerful. You can't just prove a point by disregarding the evidence contrary to that point. That's a fallacy.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I've long held the theory that the battle powers that Goku and Piccolo had when using their techniques (the Kamehameha and Makankosappo, respectively) were their actual battle powers, and that they needed to have the focusing capabilities of those techniques to reach those levels at the time because, before then, we don't ever actually see someone simply powering up to raise their battle powers. Virtually every time during the course of Dragon Ball that someone's ki levels were stated to be raising during the course of a fight. Likewise, after the fight with Raditz, we don't really see ki attacks doing this anywhere near as much. Goku, for example, never raised his battle power through the use of the Kamehameha when performing the 4x Kaiou-ken Kamehameha against Vegeta (as shown in the Daizenshuu).

As such, I believe that Goku's actual battle power at the start of Z was 924+ and Piccolo's was 1,330, and the 416 and 408 that Raditz read off at the start was like their base line, unpowered up state.

I somewhat agree with this, though I do believe attacks can be somewhat amped through charge time, though not nearly to the 2x+ boosts some believe, and attacks with minimal charge time have no amp. I place Piccolo around 1,000 if not a bit lower, and have his Makankosappo be a decent amp. Same with Vegeta's Final Flash against Cell, I believe an amplification from the huge amount of charge time allowed him to damage a superior opponent.

Statements such as "many times stronger" were hyperbole by the time of DB. The gaps between characters were always much smaller in DB than they were in Z.

Also, BoDB Goku was said to be only at 10, and he got close to a hundred for the 21st Budokai, he was able to hold his own against Roshi there. Definitely more than a 2x boost.

That's completely unsubstantiated. The power gaps never changed, the series was the same from start to finish. This is evidenced by all the statements of characters becoming "many times" more powerful. You can't just prove a point by disregarding the evidence contrary to that point. That's a fallacy.

Also, these gaps are supported by feats alone. Tao pretty much one shotted Goku and tanked his Kamehameha with only clothing damage, and then would have killed him with his Dodonpa if it weren't for the fact that Goku had a DB right where the beam hit. Then after Goku completes his training he starts stomping Tao easily.

Then against Uranai Baba's warriors Roshi says even Budokai Goku probably couldn't beat Mummy Man, yet Goku easily oneshots him and also effortlessly trounces Akkuman who is stronger than Mummy Man who was stated to be able to beat Budokai Goku. this definitely supports Karin's statement that Goku became many times stronger.

And Goku Post-God Water was already a little stronger than Piccolo Daimao, Kami then proceeds to effortlessly finger flick Post-Zenkai Goku like he's nothing. Then 3 years later Tenshinhan ends up slightly ahead of Weighted Goku who just as fast and even stronger than he was against Piccolo, thus Tenshinhan > Piccolo Daimao. Then Tenshinhan says Shen (Kami) far surpasses any level ordinarily conceivable and Kami was weakened in a human body, so Kami > Shen >> Tenshinhan > Post-God Water Goku >= Piccolo Daimao, thereby confirming Kami's massive superiority over Daimao. Then it's stated that all of them working together wouldn't stand a chance against Piccolo even though he was exhausted, thus Goku >= Piccolo > Exhausted Piccolo >> Everyone together > Kami >> Everyone else

[Doctor.]

Realistically? No, statements like old Piccolo only using less than 50% of his power against Goku and Kami being over a thousand times stronger than Mr. Popo don't make it likely. But it's still certainly possible to make a battle power list of the Dragon Ball characters keeping Goku at 416 in Z, since we know that short gaps in Dragon Ball (Vegeta compared to Cui and Dodoria) are enough to take care of an opponent.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Realistically? No, statements like old Piccolo only using less than 50% of his power against Goku and Kami being over a thousand times stronger than Mr. Popo don't make it likely. But it's still certainly possible to make a battle power list of the Dragon Ball characters keeping Goku at 416 in Z, since we know that short gaps in Dragon Ball (Vegeta compared to Cui and Dodoria) are enough to take care of an opponent.

I don't think that Kami = 1,000x Popo line is in the manga, I believe all he says is Kami is far, far more incredible which is true. He's strong enough to effortlessly wreck Post-Daimao Goku with one finger and also be considered a huge deal 3 years later even in a weakened body.

[ssbgoku]

Realistically? No, statements like old Piccolo only using less than 50% of his power against Goku and Kami being over a thousand times stronger than Mr. Popo don't make it likely. But it's still certainly possible to make a battle power list of the Dragon Ball characters keeping Goku at 416 in Z, since we know that short gaps in Dragon Ball (Vegeta compared to Cui and Dodoria) are enough to take care of an opponent.

About bold part, I honestly disagree and blame selective reading of fans in that matter. I mean sure old Piccolo was claiming that, but that before he was forced to power up by gathering and focusing Ki to make ki blasts and attack goku with them.

Him shouting and making his muscles tense while nerves appearing in eyes, sure shows he was forced to use power beyond his 50% of power. I believe back then there was more complex with ki control and use and using just physical power I guess.

I mean while kid goku sure was as strong as Tenshinhan in 22rd budokai, but sure Tien was more energy type fighter and less physical power while goku otherwise. It was also purpouse of Kami's training goku to make use of his ki control, that also why Mr Popo stomped kid goku even althought they were on par with each other(physically at least, or close to him).

What do you think guys ?

[kinisking]

Well considering beginning of DB Goku was a power level of 10, I can easily believe he was a power level of 416. That's like a 41 times boost . He even said he didn't train much after Piccolo so I assume his power level in the beginning isn't much different from against Piccolo .

[TheUltimateNinja]

Realistically? No, statements like old Piccolo only using less than 50% of his power against Goku and Kami being over a thousand times stronger than Mr. Popo don't make it likely. But it's still certainly possible to make a battle power list of the Dragon Ball characters keeping Goku at 416 in Z, since we know that short gaps in Dragon Ball (Vegeta compared to Cui and Dodoria) are enough to take care of an opponent.

About bold part, I honestly disagree and blame selective reading of fans in that matter. I mean sure old Piccolo was claiming that, but that before he was forced to power up by gathering and focusing Ki to make ki blasts and attack goku with them.

Him shouting and making his muscles tense while nerves appearing in eyes, sure shows he was forced to use power beyond his 50% of power. I believe back then there was more complex with ki control and use and using just physical power I guess.

I mean while kid goku sure was as strong as Tenshinhan in 22rd budokai, but sure Tien was more energy type fighter and less physical power while goku otherwise. It was also purpouse of Kami's training goku to make use of his ki control, that also why Mr Popo stomped kid goku even althought they were on par with each other(physically at least, or close to him).

What do you think guys ?

That was after he'd already completely thrashed Goku and Goku was reduced to crawling, though. And the attack he was charging up for completely missed anyway, so the point is moot.

[ssbgoku]

Realistically? No, statements like old Piccolo only using less than 50% of his power against Goku and Kami being over a thousand times stronger than Mr. Popo don't make it likely. But it's still certainly possible to make a battle power list of the Dragon Ball characters keeping Goku at 416 in Z, since we know that short gaps in Dragon Ball (Vegeta compared to Cui and Dodoria) are enough to take care of an opponent.

About bold part, I honestly disagree and blame selective reading of fans in that matter. I mean sure old Piccolo was claiming that, but that before he was forced to power up by gathering and focusing Ki to make ki blasts and attack goku with them.

Him shouting and making his muscles tense while nerves appearing in eyes, sure shows he was forced to use power beyond his 50% of power. I believe back then there was more complex with ki control and use and using just physical power I guess.

I mean while kid goku sure was as strong as Tenshinhan in 22rd budokai, but sure Tien was more energy type fighter and less physical power while goku otherwise. It was also purpouse of Kami's training goku to make use of his ki control, that also why Mr Popo stomped kid goku even althought they were on par with each other(physically at least, or close to him).

What do you think guys ?

That was after he'd already completely thrashed Goku and Goku was reduced to crawling, though. And the attack he was charging up for completely missed anyway, so the point is moot.

wrong, I means sure he missed with first one, but he made up two blasts while charging up so that why he shot off second one which hit goku falling from air. Please check manga again, also anime showed it clearly so I believe he was supperior but to utterly beat goku and almost kill him he needed to exceed his 50% of power.

Also full power Kikoho from Tien should mortaly damage Old Piccolo, I am sure.

[TheUltimateNinja]

wrong, I means sure he missed with first one, but he made up two blasts while charging up so that why he shot off second one which hit goku falling from air. Please check manga again, also anime showed it clearly so I believe he was supperior but to utterly beat goku and almost kill him he needed to exceed his 50% of power.

Also full power Kikoho from Tien should mortaly damage Old Piccolo, I am sure.

The second one was a lot smaller than the first one, though. Also, Piccolo shortens his lifespan by using more power so I'm sure he didn't power up all that much, even when he was young he looked extremely strained when he powered up even before he went full power, so I could definitely see him having to put some effort into powering up from less than half when he was old.

[ssbgoku]

wrong, I means sure he missed with first one, but he made up two blasts while charging up so that why he shot off second one which hit goku falling from air. Please check manga again, also anime showed it clearly so I believe he was supperior but to utterly beat goku and almost kill him he needed to exceed his 50% of power.

Also full power Kikoho from Tien should mortaly damage Old Piccolo, I am sure.

The second one was a lot smaller than the first one, though. Also, Piccolo shortens his lifespan by using more power so I'm sure he didn't power up all that much, even when he was young he looked extremely strained when he powered up even before he went full power, so I could definitely see him having to put some effort into powering up from less than half when he was old.

I am sorry but manga shows otherwise . see this one

also this one:

[TheUltimateNinja]

[spoiler]

also this one: [/spoiler]

But the first one was bigger:

[ssbgoku]

[spoiler]

also this one: [/spoiler]

But the first one was bigger:

Well it may be as the blast's size depends on perspective view and size of manga panel. Also keep in mind that first blast hit ground while second one hit goku in air so explision size could be not credible.

My point is that old piccolo needed to push himself and exceed 50% of his power to kill goku(I would say he needed 75-80% power ). Weakened badly kid goku kamehaha not hurting piccolo was impressive but I am sure full power kame hameha from fresh goku would make piccolo hurt.

Still 50% is all piccolo needed to beat goku badly which make 220 and 180 numbers wrong...

Edit: Also please check and notice how both puccolo hands are glowing after charging up sure both of them were same size.

[dragonball0900]

To be honest here. I do believe Goku is indeed around the 416 mark. The reason I say this is because Goku stated that there was completely huge gap between his and Raditz' power. He was even shocked and scared about it, and only wanted to fight him because Raditz kidnapped his son. He decided to team up with Piccolo, but even that was not enough to defeat Raditz, so they decided to use their strongest techniques to distract him and attack him. Gohan also managed to help with his enraged powers. Raditz was completely on another level from the others.

Also, I remember Goku stated that his encounter with Raditz was the first time that an opponent like that appeared, implying about his strenght. Meaning that this was the first time there was a tremendous big gap between Goku and his opponent. That includes every previous opponent Goku encountered, like Old King Piccolo.

[DBZAOTA482]

The numbers given at the beginning of DBZ are doo doo. They're way too slow with the implied gaps in OG Dragon Ball... for example, one WSJ power level sheet has 22nd Budokai Goku at 180 and Piccolo Daimao at 260 when Goku during their first fight was utterly helpless against an Elderly Piccolo Daimao who was using less than half his true power. Daimao's number also has him higher than Tien (250) at the beginning of DBZ when Tien was outright stated and shown to have surpassed Daimao during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

And don't get me started with the whole Piccolo at 3500, Kami only being 220, Mr. Popo being 1080, and so on bullshit.

[TheGodfather93]

The numbers given at the beginning of DBZ are doo doo. They're way too slow with the implied gaps in OG Dragon Ball... for example, one WSJ power level sheet has 22nd Budokai Goku at 180 and Piccolo Daimao at 260 when Goku during their first fight was utterly helpless against an Elderly Piccolo Daimao who was using less than half his true power. Daimao's number also has him higher than Tien (250) at the beginning of DBZ when Tien was outright stated and shown to have surpassed Daimao during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

And don't get me started with the whole Piccolo at 3500, Kami only being 220, Mr. Popo being 1080, and so on bullshit.

Ugh, those numbers irk me, especially in that they have Kami listed as being weaker than Piccolo Daimao, when Kami was clearly shown and stated to be stronger. I hate the concept of power levels so damn much.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The numbers given at the beginning of DBZ are doo doo. They're way too slow with the implied gaps in OG Dragon Ball... for example, one WSJ power level sheet has 22nd Budokai Goku at 180 and Piccolo Daimao at 260 when Goku during their first fight was utterly helpless against an Elderly Piccolo Daimao who was using less than half his true power. Daimao's number also has him higher than Tien (250) at the beginning of DBZ when Tien was outright stated and shown to have surpassed Daimao during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

And don't get me started with the whole Piccolo at 3500, Kami only being 220, Mr. Popo being 1080, and so on bullshit.

Ugh, those numbers irk me, especially in that they have Kami listed as being weaker than Piccolo Daimao, when Kami was clearly shown and stated to be stronger. I hate the concept of power levels so damn much.

It wouldn't be so bad if the people making them actually read the damn manga. This includes Toriyama since if he just made Z Goku's power level 1,000+ we wouldn't have to make things such tight fits. "416 sounds like a pretty high number!" was probably all the thought he put into Goku's power level.

[dragonball0900]

Those 180 and 260 numbers don't really make sense.

180: If Goku and Tien were 180, then they would be stronger than BOZ Yamcha's 177, and 23rd Yamcha could see Weighted Goku's speed that was equal to Young King Piccolo, yet 22nd Goku couldn't to Old King Piccolo.

260: It's strangely over BOZ Tien's 250 which has to be stronger than 23rd Tien, who is stated to be stronger than Young King Piccolo. King Piccolo at best has to be somewhere above BOZ Krillin's 206.

Although I have to think that it would be better for the 416 number to be raised at least to a 600. I don't think we should raise it that high to the 1,000's since it's too close to Raditz's 1,200.