The General Fan Theory Thread

[Saturnine]

Goku was trying to last as long as possible to show Gohan all of Cell's moves, though. If he went Grade 2 he'd run out of stamina too quickly.

That's true too, but let's not disregard the facts that:
1) If Goku could power up beyond his full power SSj, he probably wouldn't rely on Gohan.
2) It's likely that Gohan was considered to be the last resort at first. It took Goku time to realize that he can't actually beat Cell, at first he fought with the mindset that he probably can win by himself. To that end he tried everything. The battle wasn't solely meant to be a demonstration for Gohan.
3) Grade 2 sure would have Goku worn out more quickly, but it would also make him so much more powerful that he wouldn't need as much time. Only even battles are dragged out - battles where one has the advantage can be finished very quickly, unless there's toying involved.
4) Gohan's knowledge of Cell's moves became inconsequential when he turned SSj2 anyway, because he was so powerful he shat on Cell anyway.

So there's two possibilities: either Goku did have Grade 2, but refrained from using it because he thought it might not be enough, or he simply couldn't use it/it woudlnt' have made him any stronger than he already was. The first option can't be true in my opinion because as I said, Goku couldn't tell what reserves Cell still had, if any. Cell powering up to full power later on caught Goku by surprise, just like it did all the others.

If Grade 2 could make him stronger, Goku would have tried it to defeat Cell, simple as.

Oh, and they had Senzu beans too, forgot about it?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Goku was trying to last as long as possible to show Gohan all of Cell's moves, though. If he went Grade 2 he'd run out of stamina too quickly.

That's true too, but let's not disregard the facts that:
1) If Goku could power up beyond his full power SSj, he probably wouldn't rely on Gohan.
2) It's likely that Gohan was considered to be the last resort at first. It took Goku time to realize that he can't actually beat Cell, at first he fought with the mindset that he probably can win by himself. To that end he tried everything. The battle wasn't solely meant to be a demonstration for Gohan.
3) Grade 2 sure would have Goku worn out more quickly, but it would also make him so much more powerful that he wouldn't need as much time. Only even battles are dragged out - battles where one has the advantage can be finished very quickly, unless there's toying involved.
4) Gohan's knowledge of Cell's moves became inconsequential when he turned SSj2 anyway, because he was so powerful he shat on Cell anyway.

So there's two possibilities: either Goku did have Grade 2, but refrained from using it because he thought it might not be enough, or he simply couldn't use it/it woudlnt' have made him any stronger than he already was. The first option can't be true in my opinion because as I said, Goku couldn't tell what reserves Cell still had, if any. Cell powering up to full power later on caught Goku by surprise, just like it did all the others.

If Grade 2 could make him stronger, Goku would have tried it to defeat Cell, simple as.

Oh, and they had Senzu beans too, forgot about it?

Goku didn't want to take a senzu. He already knew Gohan would be strong enough to beat Cell.

[Saturnine]

Goku didn't want to take a senzu. He already knew Gohan would be strong enough to beat Cell.

And if Grade 2 was possible to use on top of FPSSj and still provide a power boost, so would Goku. It doesn't, he wasn't.

[ShadowBardock89]

Turles was a teenager when Planet Vegeta was destroyed (explains how he knows of Bardock), which means he is older than Vegeta and Raditz.
Cooler is not a prodigy like his brother. He had to fight for everything he had in his empire without the acknowledgement of his father. Unlike his brother, Cooler actually had to train to gain his strength and learn his techniques.

[Tectorman]

When Super Buu blew himself up after facing Gohan, he was actually tearing open a hole back to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

He was energized enough to threaten Piccolo and the boys. So we're talking at least planet-buster levels. Gohan did absolutely nothing to absorb, suppress, deflect, or otherwise interfere with this blast, so it went off with all the planet-busting power it started with. And the planet wasn't destroyed. So that energy had to have been doing something else, such as reopening the dimensional barrier between the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and the normal universe.

And then, when he reappears, Gohan's first comment is to wonder "what could have changed in so little time". That's almost the hallmark of someone having used the HTC.

[TheUltimateNinja]

When Super Buu blew himself up after facing Gohan, he was actually tearing open a hole back to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

He was energized enough to threaten Piccolo and the boys. So we're talking at least planet-buster levels. Gohan did absolutely nothing to absorb, suppress, deflect, or otherwise interfere with this blast, so it went off with all the planet-busting power it started with. And the planet wasn't destroyed. So that energy had to have been doing something else, such as reopening the dimensional barrier between the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and the normal universe.

And then, when he reappears, Gohan's first comment is to wonder "what could have changed in so little time". That's almost the hallmark of someone having used the HTC.

No, the Earth wasn't destroyed because Buu didn't go all out with his self destruction blast. Gohan specifically says that if he really went all out the Earth would have been destroyed, thus showing that the reason the Earth was safe was because Buu didn't put in enough power to destroy the planet.

[Tectorman]

When Super Buu blew himself up after facing Gohan, he was actually tearing open a hole back to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

He was energized enough to threaten Piccolo and the boys. So we're talking at least planet-buster levels. Gohan did absolutely nothing to absorb, suppress, deflect, or otherwise interfere with this blast, so it went off with all the planet-busting power it started with. And the planet wasn't destroyed. So that energy had to have been doing something else, such as reopening the dimensional barrier between the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and the normal universe.

And then, when he reappears, Gohan's first comment is to wonder "what could have changed in so little time". That's almost the hallmark of someone having used the HTC.

No, the Earth wasn't destroyed because Buu didn't go all out with his self destruction blast. Gohan specifically says that if he really went all out the Earth would have been destroyed, thus showing that the reason the Earth was safe was because Buu didn't put in enough power to destroy the planet.

Since when does Gohan have to evacuate Piccolo (and arguably, the boys as well) out of the blast radius of a non-planet-busting blast?

Sure, that's what Gohan says and what he thought was going on, but I can't help but consider that as him being an unreliable narrator. If Buu was using a planet-busting blast to open a hole to the HTC and Gohan didn't know that was the actual purpose of the blast, then he would characterize what he saw as something he understood.

I.e., he thought he saw Buu using a planet-busting blast; therefore, he got Piccolo and the boys out of the way. The blast did not destroy the planet; therefore, he took that to mean that Buu must've held back right before the explosion.

Characters are allowed to not be omniscient narrators. Gohan could simply have been mistaken.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Since when does Gohan have to evacuate Piccolo (and arguably, the boys as well) out of the blast radius of a non-planet-busting blast?

Sure, that's what Gohan says and what he thought was going on, but I can't help but consider that as him being an unreliable narrator. If Buu was using a planet-busting blast to open a hole to the HTC and Gohan didn't know that was the actual purpose of the blast, then he would characterize what he saw as something he understood.

I.e., he thought he saw Buu using a planet-busting blast; therefore, he got Piccolo and the boys out of the way. The blast did not destroy the planet; therefore, he took that to mean that Buu must've held back right before the explosion.

Characters are allowed to not be omniscient narrators. Gohan could simply have been mistaken.

That's not what the narrative suggests, though. Trunks says Buu must have killed himself to take Gohan out, but Gohan says if that was his intention the planet would be destroyed, therefore Buu must be plotting something. So basically what's conveyed here through Gohan is that Buu's blast was a distraction so he could get away rather than an actual attack.

And the reason Gohan saying Buu was only gone for an hour is significant is not because it's a sign that he went to the RoSAT, it's because that's how much time Goten and Trunks need to fuse again. Buu was planning to absorb Gotenks to beat Gohan but he heard them say they wouldn't be able to fuse for an hour after they defuse while he was battling Gotenks, so he ran away for an hour so they'd be able to fuse again.

Also, Gohan says he didn't notice any difference in Buu, so it's unlikely that Buu went to the RoSAT since it's unlikely he'd just sit around doing nothing for 15 days.

[Tectorman]

Since when does Gohan have to evacuate Piccolo (and arguably, the boys as well) out of the blast radius of a non-planet-busting blast?

Sure, that's what Gohan says and what he thought was going on, but I can't help but consider that as him being an unreliable narrator. If Buu was using a planet-busting blast to open a hole to the HTC and Gohan didn't know that was the actual purpose of the blast, then he would characterize what he saw as something he understood.

I.e., he thought he saw Buu using a planet-busting blast; therefore, he got Piccolo and the boys out of the way. The blast did not destroy the planet; therefore, he took that to mean that Buu must've held back right before the explosion.

Characters are allowed to not be omniscient narrators. Gohan could simply have been mistaken.

That's not what the narrative suggests, though. Trunks says Buu must have killed himself to take Gohan out, but Gohan says if that was his intention the planet would be destroyed, therefore Buu must be plotting something. So basically what's conveyed here through Gohan is that Buu's blast was a distraction so he could get away rather than an actual attack.

And the reason Gohan saying Buu was only gone for an hour is significant is not because it's a sign that he went to the RoSAT, it's because that's how much time Goten and Trunks need to fuse again. Buu was planning to absorb Gotenks to beat Gohan but he heard them say they wouldn't be able to fuse for an hour after they defuse while he was battling Gotenks, so he ran away for an hour so they'd be able to fuse again.

Also, Gohan says he didn't notice any difference in Buu, so it's unlikely that Buu went to the RoSAT since it's unlikely he'd just sit around doing nothing for 15 days.

And again, since when would the likes of Piccolo or the boys need to be evacuated from a mere distraction? For Gohan to make his mad dash to get them out of the blast radius the way he did, he had to be under the impression that leaving them there would do some manner of harm. These characters are powerful enough at this point that that means destroying the planet. The fact that the planet wasn't destroyed by a blast that no one did anything to mitigate means the planet-destroying energy had to go somewhere else.

Otherwise:
"No, he just created that blast as a distraction. He's still out there."
"So why did you drag us all the way over here?"
"I... didn't want you to get a mild case of sunburn?"

Yes, part of why Buu stayed away so long was to give the boys time to refuse. I'm just saying he also spent the fifteen days on his end refining his new absorption, at least as well as he could given a lack of targets in the HTC.

And of course, Gohan wouldn't immediately notice a difference. Buu didn't make any power level improvements, he only figured out how to consciously control what had previously only been a reflex for Kid Buu. That wouldn't become apparent until after he used it.

[floofychan333]

Turles was a teenager when Planet Vegeta was destroyed (explains how he knows of Bardock), which means he is older than Vegeta and Raditz.
Cooler is not a prodigy like his brother. He had to fight for everything he had in his empire without the acknowledgement of his father. Unlike his brother, Cooler actually had to train to gain his strength and learn his techniques.

Yeah, Turles being a teenager when Planet Vegeta was Alderaan'd makes sense because Saiyajins age really well so Goku and Gohan look like they're in the same age range as adults when they are really 20 or more years apart.

Cooler not being a prodigy makes sense too. He wasn't a mutant like Freeza or King Cold.

[s-shield]

Now THAT is a good theory!

One that doesn't work because everyone else gets SS after that and they don't know KK.

I can already predict that this will be rationalized by saying that the others mastered it by copying Goku, but this argument falls flat on its face instantly since Goten most likely hadn't ever seen a Super Saiyan when he first turned into one at less than 6 years old.

Trunks saw Vegeta go Super Saiyan, Goten saw Trunks. The rest of your post works for me, lol.

[ekrolo2]

One that doesn't work because everyone else gets SS after that and they don't know KK.

I can already predict that this will be rationalized by saying that the others mastered it by copying Goku, but this argument falls flat on its face instantly since Goten most likely hadn't ever seen a Super Saiyan when he first turned into one at less than 6 years old.

Trunks saw Vegeta go Super Saiyan, Goten saw Trunks. The rest of your post works for me, lol.

That still doesn't explain why Piccolo can't get this hypothetical KK = MSS after fighting Goku for 3 years.

[s-shield]

The "Legend" of the Super Saiyan is just that. Goku invents the Super Saiyan transformation as we know it. It is a combination of Kaio-Ken (explaining it being a multiplier) and him trying to copy whatever it is Freeza's ki is doing when he transforms, which Goku has felt him do three times at this point. He learned how to transform after feeling Freeza do it, just like how he learned the Kamehameha after watching Roshi do it. Super Saiyan is basically a sustained/mastered Kaio-Ken.

Now THAT is a good theory!

One that doesn't work because everyone else gets SS after that and they don't know KK.

They skipped a step, lol. It happens.

Vegeta didn't know how to sense Ki until he saw someone else do it, so he obviously has "Copy and Paste" power, too. He saw/felt Goku used Kaio-Ken several times, on top of seeing/feeling Freeza and Goku and Trunks transform several times. Once it was codified, he didn't need the intermediate steps. Works for me.

[s-shield]

I can already predict that this will be rationalized by saying that the others mastered it by copying Goku, but this argument falls flat on its face instantly since Goten most likely hadn't ever seen a Super Saiyan when he first turned into one at less than 6 years old.

Trunks saw Vegeta go Super Saiyan, Goten saw Trunks. The rest of your post works for me, lol.

That still doesn't explain why Piccolo can't get this hypothetical KK = MSS after fighting Goku for 3 years.

For all we know, he did. Piccolo does tell Gero that he can increase his power by using it in bursts, which is almost exactly what Goku told Ginyu right before he used Kaio-Ken on him.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I can already predict that this will be rationalized by saying that the others mastered it by copying Goku, but this argument falls flat on its face instantly since Goten most likely hadn't ever seen a Super Saiyan when he first turned into one at less than 6 years old.

Trunks saw Vegeta go Super Saiyan, Goten saw Trunks. The rest of your post works for me, lol.

That still doesn't explain why Piccolo can't get this hypothetical KK = MSS after fighting Goku for 3 years.

And why it seems to be exclusive to Saiyans. If it's just a mastered version of Kaioken, even the humans should be able to do it. If it's so simple that a 5 year old can copy it just by seeing it once, surely the others should also be able to do it easily. And also why it coincidentally only ever happens in the case of emotional duress of some sort except in the case of the kid SSJs.

And also how all the other Super Saiyans we get outside of the main series got it. Broly and Bardock, for example.

[s-shield]

Trunks saw Vegeta go Super Saiyan, Goten saw Trunks. The rest of your post works for me, lol.

That still doesn't explain why Piccolo can't get this hypothetical KK = MSS after fighting Goku for 3 years.

And why it seems to be exclusive to Saiyans. If it's just a mastered version of Kaioken, even the humans should be able to do it. If it's so simple that a 5 year old can copy it just by seeing it once, surely the others should also be able to do it easily. And also why it coincidentally only ever happens in the case of emotional duress of some sort except in the case of the kid SSJs.

And also how all the other Super Saiyans we get outside of the main series got it. Broly and Bardock, for example.

Well, that's like asking how come Mr. Satan can't use the Kamehameha, or Yamcha can't one-shot Freeza. Different fighters have different potential. You never saw any humans rocking the Kaio-Ken, did you? Plus, Saiyans rule, lol.

As for the other dudes you mentioned, non-canon, of course, lol.

[ekrolo2]

I really doubt Piccolo had KK as he would've been stomping the shit out of basically everyone from the Android arc pre-Kami fusion and well into the Boo arc post-Kami fusion if he had it.

It's an interesting theory but it really doesn't hold up under scrutiny, especially since Piccolo's physiology wouldn't make him any less capable of using KK than the Saiyan's.

[s-shield]

I really doubt Piccolo had KK as he would've been stomping the shit out of basically everyone from the Android arc pre-Kami fusion and well into the Boo arc post-Kami fusion if he had it.

It's an interesting theory but it really doesn't hold up under scrutiny, especially since Piccolo's physiology wouldn't make him any less capable of using KK than the Saiyan's.

Beyond not having the Saiyans' potential for combat, you mean? Remember, even King Kai couldn't master the Kaio-Ken properly, and he invented it!

Also, just like Tien during Goku's fight with Freeza, you're assuming Piccolo ISN'T using Kaio-Ken the whole time, lol.

I think using Kaio-Ken, or "using your power in bursts" becomes a standard thing after a while. Like how Kamehameha's and Dodon-Pa's eventually just lead to random ki-blasts. It's just a thing people can do with little to no fanfare.

To be fair, Piccolo probably isn't using proper Kaio-Ken, but maybe some bastardized approximation.

[ekrolo2]

I really doubt Piccolo had KK as he would've been stomping the shit out of basically everyone from the Android arc pre-Kami fusion and well into the Boo arc post-Kami fusion if he had it.

It's an interesting theory but it really doesn't hold up under scrutiny, especially since Piccolo's physiology wouldn't make him any less capable of using KK than the Saiyan's.

Beyond not having the Saiyans' potential for combat, you mean? Remember, even King Kai couldn't master the Kaio-Ken properly, and he invented it!

Also, just like Tien during Goku's fight with Freeza, you're assuming Piccolo ISN'T using Kaio-Ken the whole time, lol.

I think using Kaio-Ken, or "using your power in bursts" becomes a standard thing after a while. Like how Kamehameha's and Dodon-Pa's eventually just lead to random ki-blasts. It's just a thing people can do with little to no fanfare.

To be fair, Piccolo probably isn't using proper Kaio-Ken, but maybe some bastardized approximation.

Or Toriyama's just bringing a concept in then dropping it immediately afterward. Remember how long charging your attacks and removing weighted clothing mattered?

Besides, Piccolo makes ridiculous strength gains at a much higher rate or comparable one to the Saiyan's until he fuses with Kami. He spends a few days on King Kai's and goes from 2500-3000 to at the very least well over ten times that in a time span significantly shorter than Goku does. He also goes from the low millions to being almost comperable to the Android era Super Saiyans just from three years of sparring with Goku and Gohan.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I really doubt Piccolo had KK as he would've been stomping the shit out of basically everyone from the Android arc pre-Kami fusion and well into the Boo arc post-Kami fusion if he had it.

It's an interesting theory but it really doesn't hold up under scrutiny, especially since Piccolo's physiology wouldn't make him any less capable of using KK than the Saiyan's.

Beyond not having the Saiyans' potential for combat, you mean? Remember, even King Kai couldn't master the Kaio-Ken properly, and he invented it!

Also, just like Tien during Goku's fight with Freeza, you're assuming Piccolo ISN'T using Kaio-Ken the whole time, lol.

I think using Kaio-Ken, or "using your power in bursts" becomes a standard thing after a while. Like how Kamehameha's and Dodon-Pa's eventually just lead to random ki-blasts. It's just a thing people can do with little to no fanfare.

To be fair, Piccolo probably isn't using proper Kaio-Ken, but maybe some bastardized approximation.

How do you explain SSJ2 then?