Why I Don't Think Goku's An Anti-Hero

[Kairi Yajuu]

This one's going to be a lot shorter than my other post I think because it's not exactly a topic I've written and re-rewrote constantly but I think it's worth talking about.

I've had to do some digging after I saw a comment in passing about "so-and-so is saying Goku's an anti-hero" and while I haven't seen the actual arguments for this idea, I still feel that that doesn't sound quite right to me.

See, I've noticed that this side of the fandom(English-speaking) seems to like to tear Goku down and a lot of the time it's in the name of pulling Vegeta up. I can make a separate post on why I think that is but for now let's try to keep this already-kinda-rambling mess on topic.

I've also noticed that in the West, we seem to have an obsession about believing that good people can't exist so they don't exist in our media anymore. We tend to judge our characters (and a lot of stories are writing them this way, too) in extremes of believing a hero character is either Captain America (I don't know anything about comics but I'm starting to think that the "hail hydra" incident I kept hearing about might have something to do with this) perfect or they're an anti-hero where they have at least one flaw that the center of their character arc revolves around over-coming.

And that brings me to trying to define Anti-hero as I understand it. I believe the people who think in these extremes that it's either one-or-the-other are mistaking character flaws that you give to your hero to make them more tangible and relatable to a flawed human audience with the sort of flaws that make a hero an anti-hero. What do I mean by that? Man, I wonder if you can tell how hard I'm struggling to write this up. It's such a difficult subject to put to words and because of that, websites like TVTropes can give you the wrong idea that if you can find a flaw in your heroes personality that that automatically makes them an anti-hero. The truth is that it's not so cut-and-dry.

Like I stated earlier, what makes a character an anti-hero is not that they have flaws but that those flaws are the center of their character arc.

It might be best to work by example for this because that's what my sister and I had to do while researching this before finally having it click why we feel Vegeta(post-Freeza) fits as the anti-hero title and Goku doesn't.

Vegeta's main flaw that he's constantly fighting, that the other characters are calling him out on, that undoubtedly puts him and the rest of the story in trouble is his pride. Obviously. Vegeta is not acting as a hero in the Cell saga or the Buu saga simply because he's doing what's right, he's doing it by accident. His entire transition from Villain to Anti-Hero revolves around learning to not be so focused on himself and his goals and rather think of the bigger picture. He's doing the right thing for the wrong reasons, so to speak and I know people love to say that Goku does the same thing but allow me to go into why I don't believe that's right. At least, it's not to the extent that the majority of this fandom likes to believe.

According to fanon-Goku's characterization, scenes like where Goku decides to climb Muscle Tower to help Suno and her village do not exist. I just recently read this scene because someone mentioned that he only did it to get his Dragon Ball and I found out that that's not true. Goku did it because Suno and her family helped him when he needed it and then decided that because they couldn't help themselves, he would help them and call it even. He knew there was a Dragon Ball in the area, sure, but he didn't even check his radar to see if there could be one in Muscle Tower. That thought didn't occur to him. Throughout the series there are plenty of instances of Goku's logic and actions being written the way you would expect a real life human being who one would consider a good person's logic and actions. "You did something for me and you're struggling. Let me return the favor." Heck, Bulma takes advantage of this during their original adventures, telling Goku "yes, yes, those people are bad, now get rid of them! Be a good guy and help me!"

Goku may not be circling the globe looking for trouble every chance he gets, but that doesn't mean he's a hero completely by accident. Many real-life heroes will shun the title for the reason of "I was just in the right place at the right time, I don't deserve to be called a hero." but we ignore that and grant them the title anyways because we know better. We know that people have their own lives to live, that people will never be perfect, that people can sometimes think to themselves "I don't really want to be doing this" even while doing a good deed so we call them heroes for committing heroic acts. Why can't we do the same for Goku? Why does the fandom feel the need to turn Goku into some selfish-twat who's only thought process is "gotta-fight-strong-people" when there really is so much more to his character than that? Why does this fandom feel the need to act like Goku can't POSSIBLY be a good person? Is it because he's not perfect? Do we have to have such a depressing and pessimistic world-view that we believe you're either perfect, have a dynamic redemption or you're "literally the worst(tm) "?

When I first heard that there was talk of Goku being an Anti-hero, I took to making this post on Tumblr about Goku and Vash the Stampede being realistic and relatable without needing to be secretly the worst. http://kairi-yajuu.tumblr.com/post/1573 ... e-how-were

Now, to the point of Goku having flaws. Yes. He has them. That's what makes him realistic but those flaws aren't focused on in the series enough to make him an Anti-hero. The characters aren't constantly berating him for a specific one and those flaws aren't getting in the way of him being considered a hero. We know that he's reckless and yes that gets him into trouble or can make a situation worse but his character arc isn't revolved around over-coming it.

With Vegeta, his character-arc revolves around him over-coming his pride and the big moment in the Buu Saga when he sacrifices himself is his acceptance that he needs to over-come that flaw. (Which as we all know, acceptance is the first step) Goku's character-arc and development is just a coming-of-age story where he slowly learns from his experiences and subtly changes as he matures. It's not focused on over-coming a flaw in order to be a better hero.

With all that rambling I hope you can see what I'm trying to get at. There's a line between just being a hero who's written like a real-life person with realistic flaws and being an Anti-hero and that line can be blurred at times. I really think it comes down to how much time and energy the story focuses on the characters flaw and how much the story relies on it. I don't want to say anyone is absolutely wrong for thinking Goku is an Anti-hero for this reason but I will say that the mere thought of asking that question left me with a puzzled look and I really can't see the logic behind it beyond this fandoms usual over-exaggeration of Goku's flaws.

P.S. I don't know what DBS is doing and I don't care. I lost faith in DBS writing Goku correctly a long time ago as it's not even consistent within itself let alone with the original manga. Please don't reference anything that may happen in DBS.

[MarcBigleague]

OH MY GOD MY ANTI-HERO THEROY IS BEING DISCUSSED XD

Before I make a length discussion of why I say Goku is becoming somewhat of an Anti-hero can someone confirm to me whether I invented the theory or not? Just so if Derek Padula ever writes about fan theories he can have a good credits section.

[MarcBigleague]

I've had to do some digging after I saw a comment in passing about "so-and-so is saying Goku's an anti-hero" and while I haven't seen the actual arguments for this idea, I still feel that that doesn't sound quite right to me.

Use Kanzenshuu forums' immersive feature of going through every single one of a user's posts to check out these arguments. I'm sure you know which user to go through *wink*

[floofychan333]

Wow, this is really insightful. Anyway, I've never thought of Goku as an antihero. In fact, if I had to give him a Dungeons and Dragons alignment it would be Lawful Good. He's never been an enemy and has no traits that differ from the classic "hero" archetype.

[Lord Beerus]

You make a lot of good points. But I've always seen Goku as more of a classical hero/anti-hero. He does love his family, care for friends and the well being of Earth. But at the same time, he can fight the urges that come with his inherent race, in loving a good fight and a challenge. And more than often, that lead to him clouding his judgement and creating more problems than he really intended so. And he come them out of blatant selfishness, and even admits to it at times. But that's so wonderful about Goku: he's an incredibly flawed person. And those flaws can rear their ugly heads at the most inconvenient of times. But that in itself, makes the story more intriguing.

[jjgp1112]

Wow, this is really insightful. Anyway, I've never thought of Goku as an antihero. In fact, if I had to give him a Dungeons and Dragons alignment it would be Lawful Good. He's never been an enemy and has no traits that differ from the classic "hero" archetype.

Eh, Lawful Good's more of the Superman types, who are singularly dedicated to defending justice as their duty, and are dedicated to order before everything. Goku fits more into neutral good, leaning heavily towards chaotic good. Goku does what he thinks is right, definitely has principles against picking on the weak, and will fight hard for his friends...but he's not at all actively seeking out to save the world and is not at all concerned with the protocol or rules, and as people in the series have pointed out at various different occasions, such as the 23rd TB, most of the time his thrill of the fight will trump all.

Goku's kind of a doofus. A well-meaning doofus, but a doofus nonetheless! That's why I always get annoyed when fans point out "logic holes" where the Z-Fighters don't go with easy ways to take out villains. Uh, doy, that's not the point of the show. They're martial artists, not superheroes, and that's why Goku will do weird things like flip out about ringouts in the middle of a fight to the death that will determine the fate of the world, or give Cell a senzu bean when he just put his 10 year-old son up to fight him because darnit, it wouldn't be a fair fight!

[Kairi Yajuu]

You make a lot of good points. But I've always seen Goku as more of a classical hero/anti-hero. He does love his family, care for friends and the well being of Earth. But at the same time, he can fight the urges that come with his inherent race, in loving a good fight and a challenge. And more than often, that lead to him clouding his judgement and creating more problems than he really intended so. And he come them out of blatant selfishness, and even admits to it at times. But that's so wonderful about Goku: he's an incredibly flawed person. And those flaws can rear their ugly heads at the most inconvenient of times. But that in itself, makes the story more intriguing.

I never bought into the idea of Goku being a selfish character (which you can see me go into a little more detail about that over here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAfWsJp ... zbkihyjq3z ) or an incredibly flawed person. Like I said in my post, I see the mistakes he makes as just the average mistakes of an average person who is a genuinely good guy.

His intention is what matters in these sorts of situations and while he has done something selfish from time to time, anytime he does, he admits it. Only good people admit to their shortcomings and ask for forgiveness. When he asks Krillin to spare Vegeta, it isn't a demand like when Vegeta threatened to kill Bulma over wanting to kill Gero, it's a request and one that he's aware of is bad. Vegeta was not considered a good guy until he asked for forgiveness for his transgressions.

Goku, even as a child, will most of the time set out to make the right decision when the situation arises.

I feel that a lot of the arguments about how Goku is a bad person, an anti-hero and/or has flaws beyond redemption of any sort come from a place of wanting to put him in a 2-Dimensional box of "this is how hero's are supposed to act. They're supposed to always be looking out for the greater-good on a conscious level" and when deciding he doesn't fit into that particular box, well then, there's no way he should be called a hero, right? So that means he must be something else, correct? Something like... an anti-hero? Yeah! Because TVTropes says an Anti-hero is a hero with flaws so that MUST be what he is!

Personally, I think the reality is, he's a 3-Dimensional and well-rounded character who will never fit into any box. He is the most like a hero but he doesn't fit into the American Superhero trope because he doesn't fit into any trope because he's better written than that.

As a side note, I don't like seeing the argument of "Saiyan nature" being used as a defining factor for his character when a major story-beat in the series is how Goku was hit on the head as a child and doesn't act like most Saiyans. We can notice quirks that remind us of Saiyan nature, sure, but to go beyond that is strange to me.

[Lord Beerus]

You make a lot of good points. But I've always seen Goku as more of a classical hero/anti-hero. He does love his family, care for friends and the well being of Earth. But at the same time, he can fight the urges that come with his inherent race, in loving a good fight and a challenge. And more than often, that lead to him clouding his judgement and creating more problems than he really intended so. And he come them out of blatant selfishness, and even admits to it at times. But that's so wonderful about Goku: he's an incredibly flawed person. And those flaws can rear their ugly heads at the most inconvenient of times. But that in itself, makes the story more intriguing.

I never bought into the idea of Goku being a selfish character (which you can see me go into a little more detail about that over here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAfWsJp ... zbkihyjq3z ) or an incredibly flawed person. Like I said in my post, I see the mistakes he makes as just the average mistakes of an average person who is a genuinely good guy.

His intention is what matters in these sorts of situations and while he has done something selfish from time to time, anytime he does, he admits it. Only good people admit to their shortcomings and ask for forgiveness. When he asks Krillin to spare Vegeta, it isn't a demand like when Vegeta threatened to kill Bulma over wanting to kill Gero, it's a request and one that he's aware of is bad. Vegeta was not considered a good guy until he asked for forgiveness for his transgressions.

Goku, even as a child, will most of the time set out to make the right decision when the situation arises.

I feel that a lot of the arguments about how Goku is a bad person, an anti-hero and/or has flaws beyond redemption of any sort come from a place of wanting to put him in a 2-Dimensional box of "this is how hero's are supposed to act. They're supposed to always be looking out for the greater-good on a conscious level" and when deciding he doesn't fit into that particular box, well then, there's no way he should be called a hero, right? So that means he must be something else, correct? Something like... an anti-hero? Yeah! Because TVTropes says an Anti-hero is a hero with flaws so that MUST be what he is!

Personally, I think the reality is, he's a 3-Dimensional and well-rounded character who will never fit into any box. He is the most like a hero but he doesn't fit into the American Superhero trope because he doesn't fit into any trope because he's better written than that.

As a side note, I don't like seeing the argument of "Saiyan nature" being used as a defining factor for his character when a major story-beat in the series is how Goku was hit on the head as a child and doesn't act like most Saiyans. We can notice quirks that remind us of Saiyan nature, sure, but to go beyond that is strange to me.

I'm not saying that Goku is a bad person, but any stretch of the imagination. I'm just saying he's a very flawed person. That doesn't mean bad. That just means his personality is more layered.

While Goku is genuinely a kind hearted person, who can make selfless decisions and does have good intentions most of the time, he also can be a horrible judge of character, unable to contain his Saiyan urges for a good battle or challenge, and at times, he can even be a downright selfish bastard. Hell, as I brought before, he even openly admits to his selfishness.

Goku is very much comparable to classical heroes, much like Hercules, where he is more than willing to protect his friends and family and save the day, but the fashion of which he will go about it very morally ambiguous and questionable. For every time Goku was willing to go out of his way to help people, something that very much more common when he is a child than he is an adult, he often contributes the plot moving in a negative way due to his inherit Saiyan nature of thriving for a challenge and for a fight, even when the circumstances for that can have negative connotations. We see it in the Saiyan arc, we see it in the Freeza arc, we see it in the Cell arc and we see it in the Majin Boo arc. His blood knight characteristics are undeniably a recurring trait when Goku reaches adulthood, and throughout the second half of the story.

Goku also usually expresses himself in the most unfiltered way possible, which can interpreted as rude or impartial, or to even such a degree, that it can be practically seen as non-human. And I honestly don't think he's ever truly completely aware of just how "alien" his responses can be on certain delicate scenarios. Such was when he nonchalantly decided that staying dead was better for everyone without really taking the time to consider how his family would feel about it. Only to come back to life permanently seven years later, and then ten years later, he would leave his family again in a heartbeat, with only the promosie of coming back every so often and then saying "Goodbye" to his family and friends, before leaving for an unspecified amount of time to live and train with some child he met. Decisions like that relate back to my points of Goku being selfless as well as very selfish.

But as I've said before, that's what I love about Goku so much: he's an incredibly flawed character. He's not your standard hero/superhero in the slightest. He's shown to have great love and care for his friends and family, but his inherit personality traits, being from a race of blood knights (Saiyans), often cloud his judgement, and as result, his decisions which are often fuelled by his eagerness to improve himself and seek a challenge, can sometimes come back to bite him in the ass and affect those who he cares for. And how handles those scenarios are all the more intriguing because of his unconventional view the world. That just makes him stand out so much from the usual, generic, two dimensional shonen manga/anime protagonists we see these days.

Goku is a not a bad person at all. He's just a very complicated and unusual character.