I think the language problem is at his core the same be it for the manga, anime, guides, pamphlet's, everything really. Like you said access to certain material is much more difficult. Still if people truly want to have a conversation, the details will have to come forth. Be it bringing up the panel where a quote was said, or the section of the guide where a number was provided.VegettoEX wrote:[spoiler]I had already written and posted my response before I reflected on it and went back and edited my clarification, which is why I didn't hold onto it as a draft.
My point about not being able to read the books is a valid one, I think. Unlike the manga which has an official release in most logical regions, and you can read them in their entirety (front to back, all sidebars, all notes, all illustrations, etc. in context with each other), the same can't be said for these guide books. I mince no words when I talk about how pedantic strength debate / power level folks tend to be, yet the... it's not really "irony"... of the situation is that they're doing so with information they can't examine in its entirety when it comes to guide book material. That it's second-hand information isn't necessarily the problem or worst offense; it's the contextual understanding (or lack there-of). To most folks, these guide book statements are one-off sentences they're pulling from a purposefully-awkward-and-literal translation Jake did so people would stop hounding him about it. No real knowledge of what else is in the book, why it's written that way, how it's written, for what reason with regard to what section it's in, who the actual people and companies are that produced the books, etc. This is a gross over-generalization, because of course some people do actually own the books and at least try to track down the page and section its in for a little more context... but it's not many, and it's not the same as just reading the manga.
Again, I'm not saying "don't question" and "don't ask" and "don't disagree". I'm saying: be realistic about it. I think we're all saying that, but I'm trying to say it a little more forcefully because I've been watching this community drown itself in strength debate pedantry and negativity. I don't think it's in a healthy place right now. I'm in the business of expanding fandom, while (from my perspective) strength debate people seem to be in the business of pushing people away. (Then again, people probably think the same about me.)
I'm still genuinely interested in the answers to the questions I asked (and highlighted in bold). I never seem to actually get answers back on that stuff any time I ask, any way I ask. Everything is just dismissed outright because someone's already made up their mind. No-one's interested in an actual thought exercise that doesn't already line up with what they hold to be true. I don't agree with everything Kaboom says and thinks, but at least he gives other people the time of day and hears them out. Sometimes. Most of the time. I think. I hope.
I truly do want to hear your thoughts on what I asked. I want to get a better understanding of the "how" and "why" strength debate people think what they think and hold the beliefs they hold with regard to this supplemental material.[/spoiler]
So really if there's a problem it's people. If people don't want to hear the whole story then maybe they are not worth the time.
I understand where you're coming from regarding the "strength debate people". However it's not just them, there's frustrating individuals in every place of the fandom. Be it "my favorite character is better than yours" people or "the anime is better than the manga" people, etc. The last example is in full force currently in Super's manga thread.
This to say that generalizing is negative, it's all about the individuals.
I can sympathize that you probably moderated countless discussions and understandably your tolerance is much lower for these type of debates.
Regarding the questions in bold:
- I don't care if the guides are made by one person or a group, I don't even care the company who's behind them. All that matters is the content and if the author(s) defended their idea. I hold the guides to the same standard as myself and a fellow Kanzenshuu member posting in the power level thread.
- I hold Mr.Toriyama to a higher standard than everyone else regarding Dragon Ball. That said, the manga was made in a context and if he made a guide twenty years later, he probably wouldn't remember his own logic from before. Honestly it's tricky and I wouldn't gobble up everything, yet he still has the right to retcon his creation.
It would be an open discussion.
I believe the guides are many times misleading and therefore untrustworthy, generally speaking. I rather people first think for themselves and then look for validation. No need for dogmas.
Not to say there's right's and wrongs regarding this debate. Yet Mr.Toriyama applied logic to this. He didn't pull this out of his ass, like people like to say as they do an hand-wave motion. He's didn't do this with a calculator and there's no denying some inconsistencies; arguing he put no thought into this is close to insulting.
We can determine a range of his arguably flexible logic. Thinking about it is fun, otherwise what's the point. Unfortunately lately it's less fun when people masquerade discussions that really are monologues.
I might have gone on a tangent. My apologies.