The strength of anime Tenshinhan & Yamcha during the DBZ series

[dragonball0900]

Now. This is probably an interesting topic I want to discuss. We know that Krillin is the strongest human in Akira Toriyama's mind. Meaning that he's stronger than Tien and Yamcha. However, there's some proof that back in the time Toei didn't think that way. Seeing how the they treated Krillin like a joke (that is seen during nearly most of the DBZ movies, as well as various points during the anime in the series), then it seems that the anime also seems to portrait even Yamcha and Tien as stronger than him, way stronger than what they actually are, and even possibly stronger than Gohan (obviously before his ROSAT training, I'll get to that later).

We know this happened since the King Piccolo arc (in Yamcha's case), the training with Kami (Yamcha's case again, where he and Tien managed to resist better against the saiyans from the past than Krillin), and the Frieza arc (at King Kai's planet when they fought the Ginyu Force). The only part of the series where they don't seem overpowered is probably in the Saiyan arc (when Vegeta and Nappa arrived). My main question is their Anime power in the Mecha Frieza arc, as well as the Androids/Cell and Buu arc. How Toei seems to put them? We have some proof in some parts of the anime (nearly all of them being filler):

1 - In the Garlick Jr arc, Yamcha while possessed because of the Black Water Mist, caused Piccolo problems during their fight. Piccolo even told Gohan to stay away. Gohan is obviously weaker than Piccolo, and I don't see Toei trying to make him fighting Piccolo the way Yamcha did. Although this can be solved with saying that Piccolo was only holding back, it is still a mystery.

2 - After the Mecha Frieza arrival where Yamcha seems to survive a gravity that was way bigger than the one Goku was training on his way to Namek.

3 - In the Android arc (more specifically the early part, during the Androids 19 and 20), there's a part where Piccolo was telling Tien, Krillin and Gohan that they musn't fight Android 20 since he was too strong for them. However, the anime seem to portrait like Piccolo was only telling Gohan and Krillin. I know that in the manga Tien was on the right side of Piccolo, therefore Piccolo obviously couldn't be drawn facing to Tien since it wouldn't be needed. But in the anime they were all in the left side of him, and Tien seems to be there, in the same position as Piccolo, like if he was also wanting for Gohan and Krillin not to fight Android 20. Let's not forget how Gohan and Krillin seem to be the only ones who were shown when Piccolo was telling all 3 about not to fight Android 20. And also how they left flying. Tien was going following closely to Piccolo, while Gohan and Krillin were following way behind. It's like if the Anime portrays it like if Gohan and Krillin were the only "weaklings" there.

4 - Dr Gero said that Krillin was rubbish and that his energy would be nothing for him at all. However, when they first went at Yamcha, they said he has a good amount of energy. That later thing obviously happened in the manga. What I don't get is Krillin's part, and how Dr Gero treated him like nothing.

5 - Yamcha and Krillin were doing a sparring match, before Cell's announcement for the Cell Games, and Yamcha won the match. The only reason Yamcha and Krillin were equal at first was because of Krillin's bald head. However, Yamcha won afterwards. Yeah it might not be a serious match, but it still would make you wonder why Toei made Yamcha having the victory.

6 - Through the fight with the Cell Jrs, Krillin couldn't land a hit at the Cell Jrs at all. And if you look closely during the fight, Tien and Yamcha seem to manage to fight better against them, able to block their hits. (Note, this is all made by Toei).

7 - Tien's power in DBZ Movie 9. In DBZ Movie 7, Gohan and Krillin had to stay out of the fight since they were supposedly on a whole (lower) different level than the Base Saiyans, and that's before, yes, before their training in the ROSAT. But then in Movie 9, we see Tien able to make a fight with a much much much stronger Base Trunks. Adding more support to the second point about Tien being stronger than Gohan and Krillin in the early Android arc.

8 - The Olibu fight. Even though many people think that this Yamcha could defeat Cell. I think Toei made it that way. Because Olibu was fighting a suppressed Pikkon. And Pikkon was later fighting with that suppressed power against Base Goku. That would put Anime Buu arc Yamcha near Cell Arc Base Goku's strenght, if we assume that Base Goku can defeat Olibu as easy as Yamcha did. That would put Cell Arc Yamcha near the Cell Games Base Saiyans, just like Tien. And it explains why they are both able to defend themselves against the Cell Jr, unlike Krillin. It also proves more that Krillin is weaker than Yamcha in the Android Arc if we go by the Anime. But, it also proves that Yamcha would be stronger than Android arc Gohan, and that would be completely ridiculous since Gohan trained with Goku. However, with Toei's portrayal of Gohan (before being a SSJ) and Krillin being weaklings (if we go by the movies), and their portrayal and likeness to Yamcha (and Tien) as being way stronger than what he is (based on my other points), then it's no surprise.

This points seem to indicate that Toei was trying to make anything possible for Yamcha and Tien to be stronger than Krillin and Gohan, despite the fact that it's actually the other way round in Akira Toriyama's world.
Tell me what you think. I can obviously be wrong at some parts so just let me know.

[JulianStyles]

Making this topic just incites debate. Inoccent or not. Akira and Tenshinhans voice actor both have said he is not human. Those interviews can be found on this website.

Also these points are exactly why Super needs to be carefully examined. As the Toei writers are in full control this time. Causing inconsistent power scaling. Things that dont make sense but are just for cool factor. Akira did not write a Krillin and Goku beam struggle. He did not write a beserk Roshi being equal to a base Goku. Akiras scripts are canon you can say. But only way to figure that out is to see what matches up in the manga and anime. SS Rage. Not canon. Trunks defeating Dabura and training to the kais, canon.

[TheZFighter]

The training on King Kai's planet has always been the one that interested me the most. They were basically saying that after a relatively brief period of training, Tien (Power Level 1830), Yamcha (PL 1480) and Chiaotzu (PL 610), were able to beat Jeice & Burter (combined PL ≈ 120,000?), Recoome (PL ≈ 65,000?) and Guldo (PL ≈ 13,000?) respectively. Basically saying that our Z Fighter's Power Levels must've improved to somewhere around those levels at least.

To put that into perspective, after Guru unlocked his potential, didn't Krillin's Power Level jump up to around 13,000 and continue to rise until it hit around 75,000, or something like that?

[TheBigBoy]

I mean if we're counting anime only stuff, Kuririn went toe to toe with a powered up Garlic Jr. for a bit (after spending 4 or 5 episodes doing nothing but getting his ass kicked) and even went briefly held his own against 1st stage Cell for a minute.

[Shinda Forever]

The training on King Kai's planet has always been the one that interested me the most. They were basically saying that after a relatively brief period of training, Tien (Power Level 1830), Yamcha (PL 1480) and Chiaotzu (PL 610), were able to beat Jeice & Burter (combined PL ≈ 120,000?), Recoome (PL ≈ 65,000?) and Guldo (PL ≈ 13,000?) respectively. Basically saying that our Z Fighter's Power Levels must've improved to somewhere around those levels at least.

To put that into perspective, after Guru unlocked his potential, didn't Krillin's Power Level jump up to around 13,000 and continue to rise until it hit around 75,000, or something like that?

Yeah. Kuririn's power level reached 75,000.

[DBZ Macky]

Yeah. Kuririn's power level reached 75,000.

But that was just the starting of the Freeza fight. His power was stated to be increasing, so I have no trouble pegging him above Tenshinhan and Yamcha (and comfortably so) after he's killed and all.

Krillin's "weaker" depiction in the Anime could be mostly attributed to his timid nature. Sure, he's probably the bravest Z-Senshi, but that's only because he takes action even when he's scared shitless against his opponents. It doesn't change the fact that he's still less of a warrior than Tenshinhan, going by pure fighting spirit instead of power. Yamcha is just tossed a bone now and then by Toei, nothing implies that he's actually stronger than him.

[dragonball0900]

Yeah. Kuririn's power level reached 75,000.

But that was just the starting of the Freeza fight. His power was stated to be increasing, so I have no trouble pegging him above Tenshinhan and Yamcha (and comfortably so) after he's killed and all.

Krillin's "weaker" depiction in the Anime could be mostly attributed to his timid nature. Sure, he's probably the bravest Z-Senshi, but that's only because he takes action even when he's scared shitless against his opponents. It doesn't change the fact that he's still less of a warrior than Tenshinhan, going by pure fighting spirit instead of power. Yamcha is just tossed a bone now and then by Toei, nothing implies that he's actually stronger than him.

However, it's possible that Toei made Yamcha and Tien (or probably just Tien), stronger than Krillin based on how he defeated both Burter and Jeice and was fighting with them even divided in two, which divides his power level into two. That would place him like around 90K or so.

Yeah, Krillin's timid nature is a good possibility, but bear in mind that there is indeed prove that by Toei, both Tien Yamcha are portrayed as stronger than Krillin. Just look at the Cell Jr fight, Krillin seems to be the only one who was just scared dodging the attacks from the Cell Jr, while all the others were defending themselves by blocking the Cell Jr's hits, even Yamcha. Then there's the fight both Yamcha and Krillin made before Cell made his Cell Games announcement, Yamcha won the fight. If Toei thought Krillin was stronger than Yamcha, they would've made him win the fight, but they didn't. Then we have Tien who is obviously portrayed as stronger than Yamcha. As well as how both Gohan and Krillin were portrayed as way weaker than the Base Saiyans pre ROSAT in Movie 7, while Tien is seen fighting toe to toe with a completely way stronger base saiyan post two ROSATs in Movie 9. There's also how Piccolo in the Anime told Gohan and Krillin to stay away from Dr Gero, with the footage showing both of them, and there was no footage showing Tien, then Tien was flying alongside Piccolo.

It's just seem to me that Toei were probably going by their sizes, they might of thought that just because Yamcha and Tien were taller, then they put them stronger than Gohan (pre ROSAT) and Krillin, who are smaller, going by their sizes, putting all logic down the toilet.
They even put Krillin weaker than Yamcha back in the King Piccolo arc, with Krillin not able to fight Tambourine as well as a hurted Yamcha did. And how it seems to portrait Krillin and Chiaotzu, the two small ones, as rivals being behind Yamcha and Tien, the two tall ones, in front as the "stronger" ones at the end of the King Piccolo arc. Let's not forget the whole Kami training, how Krillin was failing against Yajirobe, while Tien and Yamcha had a cool epic scene of them fighting on par. Not to mention the whole saiyans from the past event, and how it turned out, with Chiaotzu defeated first, then Krillin, and lastly both Yamcha and Tien, which seems more like if Toei thought that was the order of strenght between the 4 of them.

Toei seemed to portrait Yamcha as stronger than Krillin back in the DB day and early Z, I can't see how it's opposite later in the series, specially with Krillin constantly being treated as a joke on fights during the movies.

[Pantalones]

It seems like it's mostly Yamcha who's randomly portrayed as waaaay stronger than he should be in filler -- various minor scenes where they're compared (like having Gero disregard Krillin's power but claim Yamcha would be a good source of energy), and then of course the notorious scene where he's randomly able to beat Olibu after seven years of either slacking or not training/fighting at all. Aside from the "Super Filler Yamcha" scenes it's mostly Krillin being portrayed as a weakling that's the problem, rather than the other two humans being portrayed as stronger.

Tenshinhan managing to keep up with base Trunks in a tournament setting isn't that much of a stretch to me -- it's been an established thing ever since early Dragonball that the super powerful characters never go all-out in tournaments right away (if at all), so even though the base Saiyans should be way ahead of the humans after all their Cell Saga training, Trunks probably wasn't fighting at full power before going Super Saiyan at Tien's request (and once that happened the fight pretty much ended instantly, so... yeah.)

And the Ginyu Force on Kaio's planet scene only seems like a stretch because of when it happened -- we know going by the power levels that Krillin would've been able to beat anyone on the Ginyu Force short of the Captain himself by the time the battle with Freeza happened (since he was at 75,000+ at that point), and I have no doubt that the others would also be able to stomp the Ginyus after they'd gotten used to the high gravity and put in at least a few months of training... but the way it happened in filler, it seemed like their power levels had to have randomly jumped from the 1000-2000 range all the way up into the tens of thousands (and thanks to being able to beat two Ginyus in multi-form, possibly even pushing into the hundred-thousands in Tenshinhan's case!) in less than a month. And we all know that degree of rapid growth is only possible if you've never trained a day in your life, like Freeza. If they'd set that scene 6-8 months into the future rather than jamming it in during the Freeza fight, nobody but the most extreme "hurrdurr humans were still around 50,000 even in the Android Saga" lowballers will have any complaints.

[TheZFighter]

And the Ginyu Force on Kaio's planet scene only seems like a stretch because of when it happened -- we know going by the power levels that Krillin would've been able to beat anyone on the Ginyu Force short of the Captain himself by the time the battle with Freeza happened (since he was at 75,000+ at that point), and I have no doubt that the others would also be able to stomp the Ginyus after they'd gotten used to the high gravity and put in at least a few months of training... but the way it happened in filler, it seemed like their power levels had to have randomly jumped from the 1000-2000 range all the way up into the tens of thousands (and thanks to being able to beat two Ginyus in multi-form, possibly even pushing into the hundred-thousands in Tenshinhan's case!) in less than a month. And we all know that degree of rapid growth is only possible if you've never trained a day in your life, like Freeza. If they'd set that scene 6-8 months into the future rather than jamming it in during the Freeza fight, nobody but the most extreme "hurrdurr humans were still around 50,000 even in the Android Saga" lowballers will have any complaints.

Yes this was my point.