Could this 10x SSJ work?

[Captain Strawberry]

A 50x multiplier had to be I guess for the story to move on but could this idea work for a 10x SSJ?

So the fan idea is:

SSJ1 is 10x and Goku on Namek had a rage boost so he was maybe 2-3x stronger. And because SSJ has less strain than Kaioken, you could probably say he has better "ki control" so he was able to tank Frieza's hits much better and possibly control his ki better where he dish out more damage. Plus the fact Goku would get stronger as the fight goes on.

So I wonder if you find this fan idea acceptable?

[cheddarsword]

A 50x multiplier had to be I guess for the story to move on but could this idea work for a 10x SSJ?

So the fan idea is:

SSJ1 is 10x and Goku on Namek had a rage boost so he was maybe 2-3x stronger. And because SSJ has less strain than Kaioken, you could probably say he has better "ki control" so he was able to tank Frieza's hits much better and possibly control his ki better where he dish out more damage. Plus the fact Goku would get stronger as the fight goes on.

So I wonder if you find this fan idea acceptable?

I don't think it drained his Ki, I think it was his stamina.

It really makes little sense I would think. Goku was beaten pretty bad at only what, 2% or 3% of Freeza's full power? Granted, the Spirit Bomb did a number on Freeza's body too. But they still had the strength to keep going for quite a while.

I would say that Damaged 2%/3% Freeza was still stronger than Damaged Base Goku.

so with that in mind: 2% X 50 = 100% OR 3% X 33.3 = 99.9%/100%

So If Damaged Base Goku was indeed weaker than Damaged 2%/3% Freeza, I doubt that a "second wind" 10X multiplier is gonna do much. I mean, SS Goku overpowered 100% Freeza at every step. It just doesn't seem viable to me.

[Borros]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyWddfeX8sU

[cheddarsword]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyWddfeX8sU

This. It just makes sense.

Also, are we really meant to believe that Super Saiyan is really just as strong as the great ape form when Vegeta hyped it as much as he did talking about how the super saiyan was so strong that he ended up being consumed by his own power?

Toriyama may have said it, but Toriyama is forgetful and not always mindful.

[Borros]

Yes, this video is very logical.

I agree with you. Toriyama said in an interview that he felt the super saiyan as an increase of 10 times the basic power of Goku.

But he speaks only about one felt, about a feeling, about an impression that he had when he drew Goku super saiyan. Kaioken already allows Goku to multiply his strength by 20.

[emperior]

Toriyama said SSJ felt like a 10x increase over what Goku had at that moment, probably referring to Kaio-Ken x10 as Goku used it all throughout his fight with Freezer up until he started collecting energy for the Genkidama.
So, if anything, SSJ was more like 100x than 50x.

[Desassina]

Oozaru is a transformation that increases their power level by dropping it with the energy sphere.
Kaioken is a straining technique that Goku uses to spike up his power level with some energy loss.
Super Saiyan is a transformation that increases their power level and lets them control the energy.

It's not the initial increase that matters, but the characters having a new form to improve, so it could be 10.
It won't matter because it will have increased as many times as Kaioken x20 in the following years (Super Saiyan 2).
It was only a 50 fold increase in the Namek saga, because we were given hard figures in the guides, so let it decrease at least.

So, if anything, SSJ was more like 100x than 50x.

I could go with that as the top most multiplier of SSJ (i.e. full power).

[dragon boss z]

The problem with this is Frieza and King Cold would have smoked Trunks if it was only a 10x multiplier.

[cheddarsword]

Great Ape: 10x
Super Saiyan: 10x

And Freeza was worried why?

Are we to believe that if Goku still had his tail on namek and formed a power ball, he could have crushed Freeza with Great Ape form? This is the point of contention for me. If Super Saiyan is equal to Great Ape in terms of power then why was the legend a thing in the first place?

[DBZ Macky]

Am I overthinking it? Toriyama said that SS felt like a 10-fold change from what Goku's power was at that moment. That'd imply that it was actually 20+10= 30x, i.e. a 10-fold change/increase from the previous 20-fold multiplier of the Kaio-Ken x20, wouldn't it?

[Supaman]

The power of Kaioken is degressive.
Kaio said that the power of the Kaioken beyond Kaioken x2 is too heavy for the body.
In others words, Kaioken x2 amplifies Ki by 2 and multiplies by 2 the battle force. Kaioken x3 amplifies Ki by 3 but multiplies the battle force by a bit less than 3. [...] Kaioken x10 amplifies Ki by 10 but multiplies the battle force by much less than 10 (probably 4). Then Kaioken x20 amplifies Ki by 20 but multiplies the battle force even more degressively (probably by 5).

The Kaioken is a Ki amplifier. If Goku manages to control that Ki, then, with luck, battle force will multiply.
But the more the ki will be amplified the more it is heavy for the body.

Toriyama said precisely :
ただ当時、超サイヤ人になると、約50倍の強さとされていたんですが、ちょっと大袈裟でしたね。作者の気持ちとしては、今までの10倍ぐらいの変化、という感じで描いていたと思います

"However at that time, when it became Super Saiyajin, (I learned that) it was seen as a force variation of approximately 50 fold but, it was somewhat exaggerated, huh. As for the feeling of author, I sincerely believe that I imagined (was drawing) originally with the sensation of a change of about 10 fold the present moment."

If a force variation of 50 fold "was somewhat exaggerated, huh?", then Toriyama imagined than SSJ is just a change of about 10 fold.

Frieza said :
おもっていたよりずっと強いようだね
ちょっとおどろいたよ
ギニュー隊長の上をいくヤツがこの世にいたなんてね…

"You seem far more resistant than I thought.
I was a little surprised, huh. So that way, there was a guy in this world that goes over Captain Ginyu ..."
In others words, both of Piccolo and Vegeta are less powerful than Ginyu at 120 000.
And Goku base is probably approximately about 120, 125 or 130 000.
Frieza kept at 10% against them.

Frieza 1 at 10 % : 53 000 (530 000 full power)
Frieza 2 at less than 10 % : less than 100 000 (+ 1 million full power)
Frieza 3 at 10 % : 110 000 (1,1 millions full power)
Frieza final at 10% : 120 000 (1,2 millions full power 100%)

Goku base : 125 000
Goku Kaioken x10 (degressive effects) : 500 000
Goku Kaioken x20 (much more degressive effects) : 625 000
Goku SSJ : 1,25 millions

Then in Fukkatsu no F, Toriyama makes Frieza says that he hopes to reach 1,3 millions (with 4 monte training).

All makes sense.

[Dai-Saiyajin]

[spoiler]

The power of Kaioken is degressive.
Kaio said that the power of the Kaioken beyond Kaioken x2 is too heavy for the body.
In others words, Kaioken x2 amplifies Ki by 2 and multiplies by 2 the battle force. Kaioken x3 amplifies Ki by 3 but multiplies the battle force by a bit less than 3. [...] Kaioken x10 amplifies Ki by 10 but multiplies the battle force by much less than 10 (probably 4). Then Kaioken x20 amplifies Ki by 20 but multiplies the battle force even more degressively (probably by 5).

The Kaioken is a Ki amplifier. If Goku manages to control that Ki, then, with luck, battle force will multiply.
But the more the ki will be amplified the more it is heavy for the body.

Toriyama said precisely :
ただ当時、超サイヤ人になると、約50倍の強さとされていたんですが、ちょっと大袈裟でしたね。作者の気持ちとしては、今までの10倍ぐらいの変化、という感じで描いていたと思います

"However at that time, when it became Super Saiyajin, (I learned that) it was seen as a force variation of approximately 50 fold but, it was somewhat exaggerated, huh. As for the feeling of author, I sincerely believe that I imagined (was drawing) originally with the sensation of a change of about 10 fold the present moment."

If a force variation of 50 fold "was somewhat exaggerated, huh?", then Toriyama imagined than SSJ is just a change of about 10 fold.

Frieza said :
おもっていたよりずっと強いようだね
ちょっとおどろいたよ
ギニュー隊長の上をいくヤツがこの世にいたなんてね…

"You seem far more resistant than I thought.
I was a little surprised, huh. So that way, there was a guy in this world that goes over Captain Ginyu ..."
In others words, both of Piccolo and Vegeta are less powerful than Ginyu at 120 000.
And Goku base is probably approximately about 120, 125 or 130 000.
Frieza kept at 10% against them.

Frieza 1 at 10 % : 53 000 (530 000 full power)
Frieza 2 at less than 10 % : less than 100 000 (+ 1 million full power)
Frieza 3 at 10 % : 110 000 (1,1 millions full power)
Frieza final at 10% : 120 000 (1,2 millions full power 100%)

Goku base : 125 000
Goku Kaioken x10 (degressive effects) : 500 000
Goku Kaioken x20 (much more degressive effects) : 625 000
Goku SSJ : 1,25 millions

Then in Fukkatsu no F, Toriyama makes Frieza says that he hopes to reach 1,3 millions (with 4 monte training).

All makes sense.

[/spoiler]

Yes, pretty much that.

I always thought that 50x was too exagerated, as also 100x for ssj2 and 400x for ssj3. It make no sense to made the base so weak in relation to the super saiyan power.
The correct multipliers IMHO will be like that:

SSJ - 10x
SSJ2 - 20x
SSJ3 - 40x
SSJB - 80x

Kaioken - 1.5x
Kaioken 2x - 2x
Kaioken 3x - 2.5x
Kaioken 4x - 3x
Kaioken 10x - 4x
Kaioken 20x - 5x

[Supaman]

In my opinion, there were not really any specific multipliers when he drew the manga. A boost just makes it a little stronger than the previous boost (Kaioken x3, x10, SSJ2, SSJ3). Only power up.
BUT
If there were, it would look like this :
[spoiler][/spoiler]

For example :
[spoiler][/spoiler]