Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

[Darkprince410]

Yet they had no major fights, Piccolo was the dominant part of Super Buu after the diffusion, and they were thrown out in Super while Piccolo wasn't. In the RoF arc after diffusion they hid behind a rock while Roshi, Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and nerded Gohan were all out there ready to fight. They also had trouble with a big snake in ep 1 of Super. They aren't real portrayed as the strong characters you think they are.

A weakened and held-back ki blast fired by Ssj Trunks was enough to cause #18 to panic over how insanely powerful they are, to the point of using a lethal technique against them to disqualify them. Her reaction to the attack indicated it was her own safety she feared for, not the safety of the audience (otherwise she'd have just deflected it, and the speed of the attack wouldn't have been a point of contention). And, as said, this was a ki blast intentionally toned down and restrained to avoid killing her.

Combine this with Gohan's difficulty during his sparring sessions with Goten, Vegeta's difficulty in defending himself from Trunks' attacks (neither of those cases having any suggestion of the adults holding back), and the fact that the Daizenshuu indicates Goten is on par with Gohan, and you have, at least for the Buu arc, them being right up there with the adults strength wise.

The boys were shown to be in their base forms inside Buu, so the only fact that can be gleaned from that is that Piccolo is stronger than the boys' base forms, and four years between the Buu arc and Super is a fair amount of time for the boys to grow weaker and rusty (we've seen what the effect has on Gohan, after all).

[dragon boss z]

A weakened and held-back ki blast fired by Ssj Trunks was enough to cause #18 to panic over how insanely powerful they are, to the point of using a lethal technique against them to disqualify them. Her reaction to the attack indicated it was her own safety she feared for, not the safety of the audience (otherwise she'd have just deflected it, and the speed of the attack wouldn't have been a point of contention). And, as said, this was a ki blast intentionally toned down and restrained to avoid killing her.

She was never afraid of them. She was just shocked at their power. If anything she was afraid of them accidentally killing someone. And she didn't risk killing them just to win a tournament. Krillin spammed destructo discs at Goku in a friendly sparring match and tried it on people in the ToP, for some reason they think its ok to spam that move.

And even if they were above 18 that doesn't meant they are even on par with Piccolo.

Combine this with Gohan's difficulty during his sparring sessions with Goten, Vegeta's difficulty in defending himself from Trunks' attacks (neither of those cases having any suggestion of the adults holding back), and the fact that the Daizenshuu indicates Goten is on par with Gohan, and you have, at least for the Buu arc, them being right up there with the adults strength wise.

Gohan got a lot weaker, and he even stated Goten was weaker than him.

The boys were shown to be in their base forms inside Buu, so the only fact that can be gleaned from that is that Piccolo is stronger than the boys' base forms, and four years between the Buu arc and Super is a fair amount of time for the boys to grow weaker and rusty (we've seen what the effect has on Gohan, after all).

I agree they could of got rusty. However they were pretty bad before their ROSAT training. Goten could barely control his ki blasts. Maybe post ROSAT they could beat Frieza or 18.
Either way this is something I think there isn't enough evidence to go either way.

[Darkprince410]

She was never afraid of them. She was just shocked at their power. If anything she was afraid of them accidentally killing someone. And she didn't risk killing them just to win a tournament. Krillin spammed destructo discs at Goku in a friendly sparring match and tried it on people in the ToP, for some reason they think its ok to spam that move.

If she was afraid of them killing someone, then why was her reaction to the weakened ki blast to dodge it rather than deflect it? Her reaction to it makes no sense if it was the audience or someone else's safety she was concerned with, but makes perfect sense if she was scared for her own safety. Secondly, she knows it's the two boys in a suit by the time she throws a ki-enzan at them, so while she could bank on one of them safely dodging to evade it, she couldn't know or anticipate with any certainty how the two of them would react and that they'd just luckily try going opposite directions, ripping the suit in half just before it'd have hit them.

Her resorting to a ki-enzan screams of desperation more than anything else.

Gohan got a lot weaker, and he even stated Goten was weaker than him.

Weaker yes, but not by a staggering degree, given Gohan's fight with Dabra while a Super Saiyan. Secondly, no he doesn't ever say that Goten is weaker than he is. The closest he comes to saying that is that the boys will outstrip him (aka surpass him) if he's not careful, which can leave them as being on par with him already.

[dragonball0900]

Supreme Kai can't just be taken seriously, he seems pretty scared of everything and not knowing anything. Not to mention that the base saiyans are below Frieza, and Supreme Kai stomps Frieza with just one punch. It was never stated that Piccolo was bluffing, on the contrary, there are various sources that indicate Piccolo being way below Kaioshin.

He tells Goku he has zero confidence on beating him before the Budokai, and i don't see why Babidi would recruit guys weaker than Shin since he wasn't expecting the earthlings to be a big deal. He may be stronger than Pocus, but i'm sure he's weaker than Yakon. While it's never flat out stated Piccolo was lying, it's pretty implied when Shin is revealed to be a mess. Out universe i think Toriyama wanted to hype Shin, since he's the God of Gods. I don't buy Freeza > Base Saiyans btw, but let's not get out of topic here.

Kaioshin didn't know how powerful Goku was at the Budokai, he wouldn't be so sure, only the fact that he might be overpowered than him, I said "might".

Babidi and Dabura also said they couldn't get energy from Kaioshin or something like that, and only wanted energy from the other 3 fighters who have more potential. Babidi also has Dabura on his side for any case of emergency. Kaioshin also only lost hope when it comes to Dabura. I'm pretty sure that if Yakon was out of the ship instead of Dabura, Kaioshin wouldn't lose that much hope, since he's only weaker than Dabura and noone else. Kaioshin is also pretty bad at judging powers, and he was only scared of Pui Pui and Yakon because he just doesn't know how strong they are, he knew that they are not stronger than Dabura, and was only scared of the other two because of their reputation of being 2 of the strongest warriors in the universe recruited by Babidi.

Kaioshin is a mess, that's true. But that does not mean he can't be above Piccolo. He has the freedom to be way above Piccolo, but still be outclassed by any of the forms of SSJs, Dabura and any form of Buu. The Daizenshuu also says that he's above Piccolo. Toriyama wanted to hype Shin, comparing him with weaker characters. It's only when the SSJs and Dabura are shown, and he's nothing to them.

Then we have Kibito, who is stated to be not that much below Base Gohan. Kaioshin is stated to be way above him, therefore he's way above any of the base saiyans. Even if we don't take into account the BOG Base saiyans < Frieza, there's still plenty of reasons to go by Kaioshin being way stronger than the Base saiyans, Frieza or Piccolo.

[dragon boss z]

If she was afraid of them killing someone, then why was her reaction to the weakened ki blast to dodge it rather than deflect it? Her reaction to it makes no sense if it was the audience or someone else's safety she was concerned with, but makes perfect sense if she was scared for her own safety.

She dodged out of reflex and she didn't realize how dangerous it was until after it blew up. Also she was most likely suppressed anyways. It was already confirmed that the androids could suppress their power in the Trunks special chapter.

Secondly, she knows it's the two boys in a suit by the time she throws a ki-enzan at them, so while she could bank on one of them safely dodging to evade it, she couldn't know or anticipate with any certainty how the two of them would react and that they'd just luckily try going opposite directions, ripping the suit in half just before it'd have hit them.

Her resorting to a ki-enzan screams of desperation more than anything else.

This is just a bad argument. There is a 0% chance she would risk killing them just to win a tournament. It was just PIS that Toriyama came up with to reveal their identities. Toriyama wasn't think "18 is so scared so she would risk killing them with this dangerous attack". An in universe explanation could be she made it a really weak disc that wouldn't go through their ki shields.

Weaker yes, but not by a staggering degree, given Gohan's fight with Dabra while a Super Saiyan. Secondly, no he doesn't ever say that Goten is weaker than he is. The closest he comes to saying that is that the boys will outstrip him (aka surpass him) if he's not careful, which can leave them as being on par with him already.

Gohan may of been ssj2 fighting Dabura. He had ssj2 hair (but no sparks) and I think a guide or the anime narrator or something said he was ssj2. And Goku and Vegeta implied Gohan was fighting at full power. This may just be one of those things where Toriyama wasn't thinking. Whether or not he was ssj2 Gohan's max power would be around Dabura meaning his regular ssj form should be a couple times weaker.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Kaioshin didn't know how powerful Goku was at the Budokai, he wouldn't be so sure, only the fact that he might be overpowered than him, I said "might".

Babidi and Dabura also said they couldn't get energy from Kaioshin or something like that, and only wanted energy from the other 3 fighters who have more potential. Babidi also has Dabura on his side for any case of emergency. Kaioshin also only lost hope when it comes to Dabura. I'm pretty sure that if Yakon was out of the ship instead of Dabura, Kaioshin wouldn't lose that much hope, since he's only weaker than Dabura and noone else. Kaioshin is also pretty bad at judging powers, and he was only scared of Pui Pui and Yakon because he just doesn't know how strong they are, he knew that they are not stronger than Dabura, and was only scared of the other two because of their reputation of being 2 of the strongest warriors in the universe recruited by Babidi.

Kaioshin is a mess, that's true. But that does not mean he can't be above Piccolo. He has the freedom to be way above Piccolo, but still be outclassed by any of the forms of SSJs, Dabura and any form of Buu. The Daizenshuu also says that he's above Piccolo. Toriyama wanted to hype Shin, comparing him with weaker characters. It's only when the SSJs and Dabura are shown, and he's nothing to them.

Then we have Kibito, who is stated to be not that much below Base Gohan. Kaioshin is stated to be way above him, therefore he's way above any of the base saiyans. Even if we don't take into account the BOG Base saiyans < Frieza, there's still plenty of reasons to go by Kaioshin being way stronger than the Base saiyans, Frieza or Piccolo.

He can sense Ki, so he has at least a notion that of Goku's power. Not an accurate one, since Goku was standing, but he at least has a notion of his power. Kibito is a tricky one to solve, but here's Gohan's quote at Kibito:

Chapter: 443 (DBZ 249), P9.1-3
Context: as Gohan prepares to fight Kibito
Gohan: “Man, this is a predicament. Bulma told me that if people found out my true power, there'd be a big commotion and it'd become hard for me to go to school anywhere. That's why I disguised myself, but...He doesn’t seem like an opponent that I can beat while suitably covering up [my true power].”

Viz has the line a bit different and clear, with Gohan saying he can't beat him "On accident" (Like Shen did trought the 23rd Budokai). It's pretty much Gohan saying he has to release a good amount of power to beat him, not necessarily his full power.

When it comes to the spaceship segment, everything points out to Shin be < Base Saiyans. Even before he knows Dabura was around, he is aware he stands no chance and has to ask the Saiyan's help. Babidi wasn't expecting nobody really powerful on earth:

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P14.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Bobiddi: “Wh-Why are there people with that kind of power on Earth…?!!”
Dabra: "When I had [the Earth] investigated about 300 years ago there wasn’t anyone like this…”

So the expected saiyans should be no match for Pocus. Wouldn't Shin interfer and kills Pocus? He was later willing to fight Yakon, and tried to fight back against Buu, so he at least has the balls. And he later even is in awe of Vegeta killing Pocus, and instead of wondering if he overstimated him he praises the saiyans, implying he already knew how strong Pocus was.

[Darkprince410]

She dodged out of reflex and she didn't realize how dangerous it was until after it blew up. Also she was most likely suppressed anyways. It was already confirmed that the androids could suppress their power in the Trunks special chapter.

She's able to sense ki, and she could tell they were preparing to fire a blast well before they did. If her fear was only for the audience or others, then it wouldn't make sense for her to dodge it. Besides, she knows it's the boys, and knows that they're at least adept enough at ki utilization (from watching their fight earlier) that she knows they could keep the audience from being in danger. She was also panicked by how much power they had, not just the attack, realizing they had "outrageous" power.

This is just a bad argument. There is a 0% chance she would risk killing them just to win a tournament. It was just PIS that Toriyama came up with to reveal their identities. Toriyama wasn't think "18 is so scared so she would risk killing them with this dangerous attack". An in universe explanation could be she made it a really weak disc that wouldn't go through their ki shields.

If there was any indication the ki-enzan could be toned down, then you'd have a valid argument. However, all cases of it being used have shown that it's capable of cutting through anything it hits without issue. As such, the only thing that can be taken from the scene without unsupported speculation i s that she threw a lethal attack at them to disqualify them.

Gohan may of been ssj2 fighting Dabura. He had ssj2 hair (but no sparks) and I think a guide or the anime narrator or something said he was ssj2. And Goku and Vegeta implied Gohan was fighting at full power. This may just be one of those things where Toriyama wasn't thinking. Whether or not he was ssj2 Gohan's max power would be around Dabura meaning his regular ssj form should be a couple times weaker.

He was depicted with that same hair style when definitively Super Saiyan (when angered watching Spopovitch beating on Videl as well as drawing the Z Sword), so his hair isn't a determining factor. As for Goku and Vegeta's comments, they never indicated he was at full power, just that whatever he was at was appalling compared to what he had demonstrated during his fight with Cell, to which Goku later tried coaxing Gohan to get angry again to reach that level again.

[Hakaishin Liquir]

Supreme Kai can't just be taken seriously, he seems pretty scared of everything and not knowing anything. Not to mention that the base saiyans are below Frieza, and Supreme Kai stomps Frieza with just one punch. It was never stated that Piccolo was bluffing, on the contrary, there are various sources that indicate Piccolo being way below Kaioshin.

He tells Goku he has zero confidence on beating him before the Budokai, and i don't see why Babidi would recruit guys weaker than Shin since he wasn't expecting the earthlings to be a big deal. He may be stronger than Pocus, but i'm sure he's weaker than Yakon. While it's never flat out stated Piccolo was lying, it's pretty implied when Shin is revealed to be a mess. Out universe i think Toriyama wanted to hype Shin, since he's the God of Gods. I don't buy Freeza > Base Saiyans btw, but let's not get out of topic here.

Well, Kaioshin is confirmed to be stronger than Piccolo, who was last seen at a level just beneath a Cell Jr. If he continued training for the next 7 years then Piccolo at the very least is on par with a Cell Jr or slightly above, to play it safe.
Kaioshin was superior to this level but still inferior to Boo Arc Gohan(according to statements by Goku & Vegeta, he is either less powerful or less intense than his Kid self), Kaioshin is probably on par with Pre-ROSAT Goten or Trunks if anything.

Piccolo: 8(12 if he was in fact training)
Cell Jr: 10
Goten: 14
Trunks: 15
Gohan(Boo Arc): 17
Kaioshin: 14.5
Goku(Cell Games): 18

Goten and Trunks aren't stronger than Piccolo.....

Piccolo's reaction to the Kids power in the Lookout tells how superior he is to them.

After Gotenks defused inside Buutenks, Buu took on the clothing of Piccolo. That directly states that Piccolo is stronger than them.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Supreme Kai can't just be taken seriously, he seems pretty scared of everything and not knowing anything. Not to mention that the base saiyans are below Frieza, and Supreme Kai stomps Frieza with just one punch. It was never stated that Piccolo was bluffing, on the contrary, there are various sources that indicate Piccolo being way below Kaioshin.

He tells Goku he has zero confidence on beating him before the Budokai, and i don't see why Babidi would recruit guys weaker than Shin since he wasn't expecting the earthlings to be a big deal. He may be stronger than Pocus, but i'm sure he's weaker than Yakon. While it's never flat out stated Piccolo was lying, it's pretty implied when Shin is revealed to be a mess. Out universe i think Toriyama wanted to hype Shin, since he's the God of Gods. I don't buy Freeza > Base Saiyans btw, but let's not get out of topic here.

Goten and Trunks aren't stronger than Piccolo.....

Piccolo's reaction to the Kids power in the Lookout tells how superior he is to them.

After Gotenks defused inside Buutenks, Buu took on the clothing of Piccolo. That directly states that Piccolo is stronger than them.

The kids were in base, and even like that they had a huge influence on Buu: They gave him more defined facial expressions and five fingers. You can compare Buu after Gotenks defused and Buu after Goku and Vegeta removed everyone but Piccolo on him. And power has zero influence on Buu's absorbtions apearence: Fat Buu took Dai Kaioshin's look instead of South Kaioshin's, and Kibitoshin stated South was the strongest one:

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.3-4
Context: East Kaioshin explains Boo's history
Kaioshin: “…First, two [Kaioshins] were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo…..”
Elder Kaioshin: …And he become that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes……”

[dragonball0900]

He can sense Ki, so he has at least a notion that of Goku's power. Not an accurate one, since Goku was standing, but he at least has a notion of his power. Kibito is a tricky one to solve, but here's Gohan's quote at Kibito:

Chapter: 443 (DBZ 249), P9.1-3
Context: as Gohan prepares to fight Kibito
Gohan: “Man, this is a predicament. Bulma told me that if people found out my true power, there'd be a big commotion and it'd become hard for me to go to school anywhere. That's why I disguised myself, but...He doesn’t seem like an opponent that I can beat while suitably covering up [my true power].”

Viz has the line a bit different and clear, with Gohan saying he can't beat him "On accident" (Like Shen did trought the 23rd Budokai). It's pretty much Gohan saying he has to release a good amount of power to beat him, not necessarily his full power.

When it comes to the spaceship segment, everything points out to Shin be < Base Saiyans. Even before he knows Dabura was around, he is aware he stands no chance and has to ask the Saiyan's help. Babidi wasn't expecting nobody really powerful on earth:

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P14.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Bobiddi: “Wh-Why are there people with that kind of power on Earth…?!!”
Dabra: "When I had [the Earth] investigated about 300 years ago there wasn’t anyone like this…”

So the expected saiyans should be no match for Pocus. Wouldn't Shin interfer and kills Pocus? He was later willing to fight Yakon, and tried to fight back against Buu, so he at least has the balls. And he later even is in awe of Vegeta killing Pocus, and instead of wondering if he overstimated him he praises the saiyans, implying he already knew how strong Pocus was.

Even though he knows how to sense ki, Goku was still suppressed at the Budokai, Kaioshin wouldn't be able to sense him properly. He simply estimated his probable power. Now you'll probably say that if that's the case, then why was he surprised at Goku and the saiyans defeating Babidi's men. Simply, because Kaioshin didn't know how strong Babidi's fighters were, he just knew the reputation they had. Then it was only when Kaioshin saw Goku transforming into SSJ and SSJ2 against Yakon, that he understood that he has been surpassed, implying that Kaioshin was indeed stronger than the Base saiyans, but weaker than the SSJs.

The fact that an opponent that is twice as strong as the figher can defeat him easily and by accident too (given that even a 30% difference of power is considered a stomp), then Kibito being not that much above Gohan doesn't seem unlikely to me. Gohan would still need to use a lot of his power to defeat Kibito if that's the case, making Kibito probably around 70% to 80% of Gohan's base strenght. That adding with Kaioshin supposed to be way stronger than Kibito, that would make him stronger than the base saiyans for sure.

And as I said before, Kaioshin is bad at this things. We have a lot of proof of Kaioshin's personality and how he usually (nearly always) contradicts himself. It's no wonder that his shock faces in Babidi's ship are the same. He was just amazed at Vegeta defeating someone who Kaioshin himself overestimated. He praised the saiyans while the events of the ship were transcurring. Like when Goku fought Yakon and transformed into SSJ and later into SSJ2, that's when Kaioshin was truly amazed by their powers. Babidi didn't even take Kaioshin into consideration when he was stating he didn't expect somebody from Earth with that power. He's clearly talking about the ones from Earth, and Kaioshin is certainly not one from Earth.
It's simple, Kaioshin just didn't know what he was doing.

And even if the Base saiyans are above Frieza (which I don't think that's the case), Kaioshin defeating Frieza with just one stomp is still a really great feat. It would also seem strange that Kaioshin would be that weak, considering the fact that the other Kaioshins (who, while are way stronger than him, it shouldn't be by that much), specifically South Kaioshin, made Kid Buu having the need to absorb rather than defeating.

With the Daizenshuu saying that Piccolo is below Kaioshin, I don't have any doubt right now that Kaioshin is stronger than him but weaker than the SSJs.

And just another thing, Kaioshin was able to hold his own against Fat Buu, who was using the same power he had when defeating Gohan and Dabura. That's something that a Base saiyan wouldn't be able to do.

[dragon boss z]

She's able to sense ki, and she could tell they were preparing to fire a blast well before they did. If her fear was only for the audience or others, then it wouldn't make sense for her to dodge it. Besides, she knows it's the boys, and knows that they're at least adept enough at ki utilization (from watching their fight earlier) that she knows they could keep the audience from being in danger. She was also panicked by how much power they had, not just the attack, realizing they had "outrageous" power.

She should be able to sense energy, yet when they went ssj she was completely unfazed by their power. And she specifically said she was surprised how good they were for being kids.

If there was any indication the ki-enzan could be toned down, then you'd have a valid argument. However, all cases of it being used have shown that it's capable of cutting through anything it hits without issue. As such, the only thing that can be taken from the scene without unsupported speculation i s that she threw a lethal attack at them to disqualify them.

At best it is PIS. You are looking way to far into it. The reader isn't supposed to think she just needlessly risked their lives.

He was depicted with that same hair style when definitively Super Saiyan (when angered watching Spopovitch beating on Videl as well as drawing the Z Sword), so his hair isn't a determining factor. As for Goku and Vegeta's comments, they never indicated he was at full power, just that whatever he was at was appalling compared to what he had demonstrated during his fight with Cell, to which Goku later tried coaxing Gohan to get angry again to reach that level again.

Tbh that whole thing was very strange. I think it was just one of those things where Toriyama wasn't really thinking too much.

He tells Goku he has zero confidence on beating him before the Budokai, and i don't see why Babidi would recruit guys weaker than Shin since he wasn't expecting the earthlings to be a big deal. He may be stronger than Pocus, but i'm sure he's weaker than Yakon. While it's never flat out stated Piccolo was lying, it's pretty implied when Shin is revealed to be a mess. Out universe i think Toriyama wanted to hype Shin, since he's the God of Gods. I don't buy Freeza > Base Saiyans btw, but let's not get out of topic here.



Piccolo's reaction to the Kids power in the Lookout tells how superior he is to them.

After Gotenks defused inside Buutenks, Buu took on the clothing of Piccolo. That directly states that Piccolo is stronger than them.

The kids were in base, and even like that they had a huge influence on Buu: They gave him more defined facial expressions and five fingers. You can compare Buu after Gotenks defused and Buu after Goku and Vegeta removed everyone but Piccolo on him. And power has zero influence on Buu's absorbtions apearence: Fat Buu took Dai Kaioshin's look instead of South Kaioshin's, and Kibitoshin stated South was the strongest one:

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.3-4
Context: East Kaioshin explains Boo's history
Kaioshin: “…First, two [Kaioshins] were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo…..”
Elder Kaioshin: …And he become that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes……”

He may of meant the strongest out of the Kaioshin, but maybe that doesn't mean he is stronger than the Dai Kaioshin. Or possibly his body was stronger but his power was inferior. The Dai Kaioshin was able to push a stronger version of Buu enough to make Buu want to absorb him.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Even though he knows how to sense ki, Goku was still suppressed at the Budokai, Kaioshin wouldn't be able to sense him properly. He simply estimated his probable power. Now you'll probably say that if that's the case, then why was he surprised at Goku and the saiyans defeating Babidi's men. Simply, because Kaioshin didn't know how strong Babidi's fighters were, he just knew the reputation they had. Then it was only when Kaioshin saw Goku transforming into SSJ and SSJ2 against Yakon, that he understood that he has been surpassed, implying that Kaioshin was indeed stronger than the Base saiyans, but weaker than the SSJs.

The fact that an opponent that is twice as strong as the figher can defeat him easily and by accident too (given that even a 30% difference of power is considered a stomp), then Kibito being not that much above Gohan doesn't seem unlikely to me. Gohan would still need to use a lot of his power to defeat Kibito if that's the case, making Kibito probably around 70% to 80% of Gohan's base strenght. That adding with Kaioshin supposed to be way stronger than Kibito, that would make him stronger than the base saiyans for sure.

And as I said before, Kaioshin is bad at this things. We have a lot of proof of Kaioshin's personality and how he usually (nearly always) contradicts himself. It's no wonder that his shock faces in Babidi's ship are the same. He was just amazed at Vegeta defeating someone who Kaioshin himself overestimated. He praised the saiyans while the events of the ship were transcurring. Like when Goku fought Yakon and transformed into SSJ and later into SSJ2, that's when Kaioshin was truly amazed by their powers. Babidi didn't even take Kaioshin into consideration when he was stating he didn't expect somebody from Earth with that power. He's clearly talking about the ones from Earth, and Kaioshin is certainly not one from Earth.
It's simple, Kaioshin just didn't know what he was doing.

And even if the Base saiyans are above Frieza (which I don't think that's the case), Kaioshin defeating Frieza with just one stomp is still a really great feat. It would also seem strange that Kaioshin would be that weak, considering the fact that the other Kaioshins (who, while are way stronger than him, it shouldn't be by that much), specifically South Kaioshin, made Kid Buu having the need to absorb rather than defeating.

With the Daizenshuu saying that Piccolo is below Kaioshin, I don't have any doubt right now that Kaioshin is stronger than him but weaker than the SSJs.

And just another thing, Kaioshin was able to hold his own against Fat Buu, who was using the same power he had when defeating Gohan and Dabura. That's something that a Base saiyan wouldn't be able to do.

Yeah, Shin was most likely guessing by his reputation. At the Budokai he was still hyped as a big deal.

Like i said, Kibito is a tricky one. Perhaps he was guessing by his appearence, since he was just standing. Or Gohan was suppressed at point, and a power up to a level above Kibito would reveal his aura, making people know his powers.

Pocus > Shin barely has to do with Shin's behavior. It's about Babidi's plan. If Pocus was able to beat the saiyans, wouldn't Shin go there and kill him? Why don't start by Yakon on Dabura then?

The Daiz implies Yakon > Shin as well, calling him "A monster even Kaioshin fears", so i guess we have a loop here.

Buu was toying with him. All Shin did was go there and Kiai him, and we know Kiais are really powerful.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

She's able to sense ki, and she could tell they were preparing to fire a blast well before they did. If her fear was only for the audience or others, then it wouldn't make sense for her to dodge it. Besides, she knows it's the boys, and knows that they're at least adept enough at ki utilization (from watching their fight earlier) that she knows they could keep the audience from being in danger. She was also panicked by how much power they had, not just the attack, realizing they had "outrageous" power.

She should be able to sense energy, yet when they went ssj she was completely unfazed by their power. And she specifically said she was surprised how good they were for being kids.

If there was any indication the ki-enzan could be toned down, then you'd have a valid argument. However, all cases of it being used have shown that it's capable of cutting through anything it hits without issue. As such, the only thing that can be taken from the scene without unsupported speculation i s that she threw a lethal attack at them to disqualify them.

At best it is PIS. You are looking way to far into it. The reader isn't supposed to think she just needlessly risked their lives.

He was depicted with that same hair style when definitively Super Saiyan (when angered watching Spopovitch beating on Videl as well as drawing the Z Sword), so his hair isn't a determining factor. As for Goku and Vegeta's comments, they never indicated he was at full power, just that whatever he was at was appalling compared to what he had demonstrated during his fight with Cell, to which Goku later tried coaxing Gohan to get angry again to reach that level again.

Tbh that whole thing was very strange. I think it was just one of those things where Toriyama wasn't really thinking too much.

After Gotenks defused inside Buutenks, Buu took on the clothing of Piccolo. That directly states that Piccolo is stronger than them.

The kids were in base, and even like that they had a huge influence on Buu: They gave him more defined facial expressions and five fingers. You can compare Buu after Gotenks defused and Buu after Goku and Vegeta removed everyone but Piccolo on him. And power has zero influence on Buu's absorbtions apearence: Fat Buu took Dai Kaioshin's look instead of South Kaioshin's, and Kibitoshin stated South was the strongest one:

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.3-4
Context: East Kaioshin explains Boo's history
Kaioshin: “…First, two [Kaioshins] were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo…..”
Elder Kaioshin: …And he become that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes……”

He may of meant the strongest out of the Kaioshin, but maybe that doesn't mean he is stronger than the Dai Kaioshin. Or possibly his body was stronger but his power was inferior. The Dai Kaioshin was able to push a stronger version of Buu enough to make Buu want to absorb him.

He mades a point to differenciate his brute strength and his overall strength ("The burliest and strongest one"). It's also worth it to remember the kids were in base and had a huge influence on Buu: They gave him human fingers and a more detailed face. I don't see why is too difficult to accept Kids > Piccolo when Piccolo is a piece of trash on Buu Arc and has nothing to prove himself while the kids are pretty hyped even before the fusion.

[dragon boss z]

He mades a point to differenciate his brute strength and his overall strength ("The burliest and strongest one").

I would agree south Kai could have the most physical strength, but the grand Kai has more power/abilities.

It's also worth it to remember the kids were in base and had a huge influence on Buu: They gave him human fingers and a more detailed face. I don't see why is too difficult to accept Kids > Piccolo when Piccolo is a piece of trash on Buu Arc and has nothing to prove himself while the kids are pretty hyped even before the fusion.

I agree the kids were being hyped, but then they went nowhere with it. They did nothing above namek tier, and even if you accept that Android 18 was truly afraid of them, Piccolo at this point in time should be far above 18 anyways. And now in dragon ball Super both the kids and Piccolo were treated like trash (I still think the writers forgot how Piccolo was, which is why he had trouble with Shisami (a Zarbon level opponent) in RoF and got spanked by Tagoma (who got stomped by a rusty ssj Gohan) in Super). At least recently they have made Piccolo look a bit better.

[dragonball0900]

Yeah, Shin was most likely guessing by his reputation. At the Budokai he was still hyped as a big deal.

Like i said, Kibito is a tricky one. Perhaps he was guessing by his appearence, since he was just standing. Or Gohan was suppressed at point, and a power up to a level above Kibito would reveal his aura, making people know his powers.

Pocus > Shin barely has to do with Shin's behavior. It's about Babidi's plan. If Pocus was able to beat the saiyans, wouldn't Shin go there and kill him? Why don't start by Yakon on Dabura then?

The Daiz implies Yakon > Shin as well, calling him "A monster even Kaioshin fears", so i guess we have a loop here.

Buu was toying with him. All Shin did was go there and Kiai him, and we know Kiais are really powerful.

Kibito is not tricky to put if we consider Kaioshin as stronger than Piccolo, the base saiyans, etc. I also don't think that using like 50% of his power would have the need to show his aura. It did happen before when the fighters didn't show the aura for using their full power, or at least most of it.

It does have to do with it if you think about it, Kaioshin is just someone who can't be trusted. It's because of him that the whole Buu arc power scalling is a mess, and can only be justified by Kaioshin being someone who is unreliable. Babidi perhaps was also aware of this, and was only concentrated on the fighters of Earth (Goku, Vegeta and Gohan) to see how strong they are, he just didn't care of Kaioshin since he wanted to kill him personally, and we know he can't, and that's also why he has Dabura on his side in case anything goes wrong. As to why Kaioshin didn't kill Pocus and Yakon? As I said before, It's all because of Kaioshin's poor handling of things. It helps to put all the things together. Kaioshin is just someone who doesn't know what he's doing. If we just go by that, everything will go as resulted.

Just because it says "even Kaioshin fears" it doesn't mean Yakon is stronger, not at all. It was just going by how Kaioshin was scared of the monster's reputation of being one of the strongest warriors of the universe, at Babidi's ship.

Buu was toying, but Kaioshin got more hits than Gohan did. Gohan was stomped first with one hit, got stand up, and then stomped again with another. Sure, it doesn't mean Kaioshin is stronger than Gohan, but it does show that Kaioshin got better feats than what a base saiyan who is 50 times weaker could ever do.

The Daizenshuu also goes with Piccolo < Kaioshin. Even the manga itself goes by Piccolo < Kaioshin, Piccolo stated himself. Even if he can't sense him, why does he have the need to tell Goku and the others that Kaioshin is much stronger? He did say "dimmensions apart" or something like that, which is referring to strenght, given how we saw that quote in many other parts of the manga and series.
With Piccolo being weaker than Kaioshin, Kaioshin's surprisement at Goku's SSJ and SSJ2 power against Yakon and him stating clearly that he has been surpassed at that point, as well as someone who is able to stomp Frieza, who is stronger than the base saiyans (don't agree with me if you want, but I don't have problem with this). All leads to believe that Kaioshin is in fact much stronger than the base saiyans.

Don't really want to interrupt the discussion. It's just that this thread is more related to Kaioshin's strenght rather than Goten and Trunks' strenght. Perhaps moving this to somewhere else? Just wanting to point that out.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It's been a long-ass while since I saw those manga chapters and corresponding anime episodes, but I'll try to weigh in.

I've always pegged Piccolo as being around the level of Cell Games SS Goku during the Buu Saga and half of that of SS Gohan from the Cell Games, and SS Goku and Vegeta in the Buu Saga being around 4 times that, equal to SS2 Pre-Teen Gohan from the Cell Games.

Thus, we can do some nice and easy math, and have Shin be twice as strong as Piccolo whilst still being twice as weak as the Buu Saga Super Saiyans like Goku.

I might be entirely off the mark, so take everything here with a grain of salt.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Kibito is not tricky to put if we consider Kaioshin as stronger than Piccolo, the base saiyans, etc. I also don't think that using like 50% of his power would have the need to show his aura. It did happen before when the fighters didn't show the aura for using their full power, or at least most of it.

~

Yeah, perhaps. But i still think powering up from a suppressed level he can't even broke that punching machine to something like 50% of his power still a huge power up. Would you mind me giving some examples?

It does have to do with it if you think about it, Kaioshin is just someone who can't be trusted. It's because of him that the whole Buu arc power scalling is a mess, and can only be justified by Kaioshin being someone who is unreliable. Babidi perhaps was also aware of this, and was only concentrated on the fighters of Earth (Goku, Vegeta and Gohan) to see how strong they are, he just didn't care of Kaioshin since he wanted to kill him personally, and we know he can't, and that's also why he has Dabura on his side in case anything goes wrong. As to why Kaioshin didn't kill Pocus and Yakon? As I said before, It's all because of Kaioshin's poor handling of things. It helps to put all the things together. Kaioshin is just someone who doesn't know what he's doing. If we just go by that, everything will go as resulted.

Even though Shin was scared, he has the balls to fight. He sugests fighting Yakon and was about to fight Pocus with Vegeta (Goku had to hold his arm and tell him to relax) and against Buu, who's he supposed to fear the most, he tries to fight back suprisingly well with his magic tricks. And he seems to recognize Yakon the momment he arrives and suggests they should fight together. This pretty much shows Shin knows what's he's dealing with.

Just because it says "even Kaioshin fears" it doesn't mean Yakon is stronger, not at all. It was just going by how Kaioshin was scared of the monster's reputation of being one of the strongest warriors of the universe, at Babidi's ship.

He shows to know who Yakon is pretty well on the Manga. If he knows who Dabura is and his fear is a signal of weakness, why is different with Yakon?

Buu was toying, but Kaioshin got more hits than Gohan did. Gohan was stomped first with one hit, got stand up, and then stomped again with another. Sure, it doesn't mean Kaioshin is stronger than Gohan, but it does show that Kaioshin got better feats than what a base saiyan who is 50 times weaker could ever do.

All Shin did was charging two Kiais. Gohan got a pretty good kick on Buu's face, and on all cases Buu was caught by surprise with his guard open. Gohan's kick was way, way better than Shin's Kiais. I really think those Kiai's wold harm Pocus and probably Yakon, though.

The Daizenshuu also goes with Piccolo < Kaioshin. Even the manga itself goes by Piccolo < Kaioshin, Piccolo stated himself. Even if he can't sense him, why does he have the need to tell Goku and the others that Kaioshin is much stronger? He did say "dimmensions apart" or something like that, which is referring to strenght, given how we saw that quote in many other parts of the manga and series.

I think Piccolo was lying to don't worry the others. Just imagine: He gives up and they ask why, he says "I can't, he's the God of Gods". Wouldn't the fact such a deity was on earth worry the others. Shin himself even says Piccolo probably realized he was a God, instead of saying he realized how outclassed he was.

With Piccolo being weaker than Kaioshin, Kaioshin's surprisement at Goku's SSJ and SSJ2 power against Yakon and him stating clearly that he has been surpassed at that point, as well as someone who is able to stomp Frieza, who is stronger than the base saiyans (don't agree with me if you want, but I don't have problem with this). All leads to believe that Kaioshin is in fact much stronger than the base saiyans.

Wasn't Shin wordless after SSJ Goku's performace? I don't remember him saying this. And Freeza > Base Saiyans is a non factor here since i don't belive in it.

Don't really want to interrupt the discussion. It's just that this thread is more related to Kaioshin's strenght rather than Goten and Trunks' strenght. Perhaps moving this to somewhere else? Just wanting to point that out.

Agree. This should be moved to a new thread or something.

It's been a long-ass while since I saw those manga chapters and corresponding anime episodes, but I'll try to weigh in.

I've always pegged Piccolo as being around the level of Cell Games SS Goku during the Buu Saga and half of that of SS Gohan from the Cell Games, and SS Goku and Vegeta in the Buu Saga being around 4 times that, equal to SS2 Pre-Teen Gohan from the Cell Games.

Thus, we can do some nice and easy math, and have Shin be twice as strong as Piccolo whilst still being twice as weak as the Buu Saga Super Saiyans like Goku.

I might be entirely off the mark, so take everything here with a grain of salt.

I used to follow this logic a while ago. The problem is that Gohan is only noticed to be surpassed by Goku and Vegeta when they turn SSJ2, and Piccolo even says Majin Vegeta isn't that much stronger than Gohan was 7 years ago.

[dragonball0900]

Yeah, perhaps. But i still think powering up from a suppressed level he can't even broke that punching machine to something like 50% of his power still a huge power up. Would you mind me giving some examples?

~
Well, there's Vegeta vs Kaioken X2 Goku. Vegeta before his power up of full power still manages to fight a Goku that clearly surpasses his half power. And breaking the punching machine is different from an actual fight. There's also Recoome who didn't need to power up or show any aura against Vegeta, since he was playing with him, but as we know Vegeta is 30K and Recoome is around 40K-45K, then he simply didn't need to power up with an aura to defeat someone who is above his half strenght (Vegeta).

The Daizenshuu also goes by saying that Kibito can give Gohan a tough fight in his base form. That means that Kibito is just not that far away from Gohan. With Kaioshin being much stronger than Kibito, then he should surpass the base saiyans by far.

Even though Shin was scared, he has the balls to fight. He sugests fighting Yakon and was about to fight Pocus with Vegeta (Goku had to hold his arm and tell him to relax) and against Buu, who's he supposed to fear the most, he tries to fight back suprisingly well with his magic tricks. And he seems to recognize Yakon the momment he arrives and suggests they should fight together. This pretty much shows Shin knows what's he's dealing with.

That's because as I said, Kaioshin didn't know how strong Yakon and Pui Pui were, and decided to be cautious against the two. When Yakon was prepared to fight, Kaioshin could've thought that this monster was terribly strong, much stronger than what Pui Pui showed. He knows Yakon's reputation of being "one of the strongest", but he doesn't really know how strong is he, Kaioshin just assumed that he was really stronger and wanted for them to fight together. Also didn't Kaioshin sensed SSJ2 Gohan at the Budokai? Yet here he acts like if the saiyans wouldn't be able to do anything. That clearly shows that Kaioshin is simply not smart enough.

He shows to know who Yakon is pretty well on the Manga. If he knows who Dabura is and his fear is a signal of weakness, why is different with Yakon?

He knows Yakon's supposed title of "one of the strongest", that doesn't mean he knows his strenght. Kaioshin when seeing Dabura, he said that all hope was lost, yet with Yakon he suggested for everyone to fight together. Kaioshin was more afraid for Dabura than with Kaioshin.

All Shin did was charging two Kiais. Gohan got a pretty good kick on Buu's face, and on all cases Buu was caught by surprise with his guard open. Gohan's kick was way, way better than Shin's Kiais. I really think those Kiai's wold harm Pocus and probably Yakon, though.

Yeah I know that, but he did show more durability than Gohan, and I doubt that a kaioshin can have more durability than a saiyan. That means that if a SSJ only showed durability comparable to a kaioshin, then in base form (which is 50 times weaker) it would be terribly stomped and wouldn't be able to land any hits.

I think Piccolo was lying to don't worry the others. Just imagine: He gives up and they ask why, he says "I can't, he's the God of Gods". Wouldn't the fact such a deity was on earth worry the others. Shin himself even says Piccolo probably realized he was a God, instead of saying he realized how outclassed he was.

Piccolo wouldn't care what the others (specially Goku and Vegeta, the most willing to fight) think, the fact that Kaioshin is a god only applies to Piccolo, yet he tells the others specifically that he is way weaker than Kaioshin. If Kaioshin was weaker than Piccolo, wouldn't Piccolo simply say that he shouldn't be anything to worry about when it comes to strenght? Why the need to say that they are on different dimentions? The whole god respect only applies to Piccolo, after all, not the others. The line was in the manga, it doesn't mean that he was lying. The Daizenshuu also clearly says that Kaioshin surpasses Piccolo, and I don't see anything contradictory in that.

Wasn't Shin wordless after SSJ Goku's performace? I don't remember him saying this. And Freeza > Base Saiyans is a non factor here since i don't belive in it.

He did say it. After the whole Yakon fight was over and they were talking about Gohan's lack of training, Kaioshin was there thinking that he has been surpassed by warriors from Earth, he was clearly talking about the whole SSJ concept. Yet he didn't think of that after Pui Pui vs Vegeta.

[Duo]

Or are they just rather close in power?

There is far from sufficient context to make a sane comparison in this regard. I never really got the impression that Goku got much stronger per form moving from the Cell arc to the Buu arc, as much as he unlocked two new transformations. If Kaioshin could be applied to previous arcs, I reckon he would sit between #16 and Goku (Cell Games). Akira Toriyama doesn't care that much about power scaling, so I doubt there was anything precise in mind regarding Piccolo and Kaioshin at any point in time during or after the Buu arc.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well, there's Vegeta vs Kaioken X2 Goku. Vegeta before his power up of full power still manages to fight a Goku that clearly surpasses his half power. And breaking the punching machine is different from an actual fight. There's also Recoome who didn't need to power up or show any aura against Vegeta, since he was playing with him, but as we know Vegeta is 30K and Recoome is around 40K-45K, then he simply didn't need to power up with an aura to defeat someone who is above his half strenght (Vegeta).

The Daizenshuu also goes by saying that Kibito can give Gohan a tough fight in his base form. That means that Kibito is just not that far away from Gohan. With Kaioshin being much stronger than Kibito, then he should surpass the base saiyans by far.

I don't think you got what i said. I said Gohan powering up from a suppressed level (The one he used to punch the machine without breaking it) to a level above Kibito
would reveal his aura and his powers to the others. I'm not sure if Vegeta and Recoome account, since neither of them can suppress their powers like Gohan can.

Yeah, the Daiz isn't 100% accurate. Implying both Shin > Piccolo and Yakon > Shin shows is. Same with saying Recoome killed Kuririn, or the Kids fighting on pair with 18.

That's because as I said, Kaioshin didn't know how strong Yakon and Pui Pui were, and decided to be cautious against the two. When Yakon was prepared to fight, Kaioshin could've thought that this monster was terribly strong, much stronger than what Pui Pui showed. He knows Yakon's reputation of being "one of the strongest", but he doesn't really know how strong is he, Kaioshin just assumed that he was really stronger and wanted for them to fight together. Also didn't Kaioshin sensed SSJ2 Gohan at the Budokai? Yet here he acts like if the saiyans wouldn't be able to do anything. That clearly shows that Kaioshin is simply not smart enough.

And as i said, Shin knows Yakon. Even though he doesn't know Pocus and was guessing by his reputation, he recognizes Yakon the moment he appears and explain his skills to the others. And why would Babidi send guys weaker than Shin? Why don't start by Dabura? About SSJ2 Gohan, it's a plothole. Why would he be scared of Dabura as well while SSJ2 Gohan can vaporize him? Even if Gohan was a SSJ2, he showed to have a good advantage over Dabura, tanking his blast and breaking his Sword.

He knows Yakon's supposed title of "one of the strongest", that doesn't mean he knows his strenght. Kaioshin when seeing Dabura, he said that all hope was lost, yet with Yakon he suggested for everyone to fight together. Kaioshin was more afraid for Dabura than with Kaioshin.

Of course Shin would fear Dabura more! He's way stronger. It stil the same case, but in different scales: Shin knows the bad guy and knows he's stronger than him.

Yeah I know that, but he did show more durability than Gohan, and I doubt that a kaioshin can have more durability than a saiyan. That means that if a SSJ only showed durability comparable to a kaioshin, then in base form (which is 50 times weaker) it would be terribly stomped and wouldn't be able to land any hits.

Neither a SSJ could do that. Buu is toying, just like when he didn't one shot Vegeta even though he was at his Full Power.

Piccolo wouldn't care what the others (specially Goku and Vegeta, the most willing to fight) think, the fact that Kaioshin is a god only applies to Piccolo, yet he tells the others specifically that he is way weaker than Kaioshin. If Kaioshin was weaker than Piccolo, wouldn't Piccolo simply say that he shouldn't be anything to worry about when it comes to strenght? Why the need to say that they are on different dimentions? The whole god respect only applies to Piccolo, after all, not the others. The line was in the manga, it doesn't mean that he was lying. The Daizenshuu also clearly says that Kaioshin surpasses Piccolo, and I don't see anything contradictory in that.

Vegeta, and especially Goku would be willing to fight Shin. I'm pretty sure the last thing Piccolo want is to Goku punch the God of Gods in the face. But Gohan and Kuririn really would be worried, it's not every day that the Lord of Lords visits Earth. What contradicts Piccolo's quote for me is his perfomace at the Ship, AT wanted Shin to be a badass, but he either was hyping him or changed his mind. Unless his performace implies Base Saiyans > Piccolo, what seems unlikely.

He did say it. After the whole Yakon fight was over and they were talking about Gohan's lack of training, Kaioshin was there thinking that he has been surpassed by warriors from Earth, he was clearly talking about the whole SSJ concept. Yet he didn't think of that after Pui Pui vs Vegeta.

Oh, i see. But i think he was surprised with how the True Saiyans blow the Estimated Saiyans out of the water. Shin already implied to be weaker than Base Saiyans earlier: Remember when Goku said he can't beat Goku at the Budokai? Yeah, he was guessing by his reputation, but he still thought Goku should be stronger than him. And when Vegeta kills Pocus he said they were even stronger than he thought. He pretty much says Base Saiyans >>> Estimated SSJs >>> Himself.