From a story perspective, are we supposed to believe that Beerus>SSB Vegito?

[RichardKing2]

I know that DBS has continued to reinforce that Beerus is stronger than basically everyone in U7 individually(excluding Whis of course), and that Zen-Oh is above everyone

However, what about the fusions such as Merged Zamasu and SSB Vegito(both Anime Versions from the Black Arc)? From a story perspective, are we supposed to also believe that DBS Beerus is above even those fusions? Or is the anime team deliberately keeping silent on this subject?

[dragonball0900]

The fact that we don't have anything official or direct confirmation that Beerus is above Vegito or Fused Zamasu (the only villian by far that is confirmed to be weaker than Beerus is SSJ Rose Black), as well as how we have Kaioshin saying that Vegito's ki was probably bigger than Beerus, even though we know that Kaioshin's statements can' be consider trustworthy, then we can't just be sure that Vegito didn't surpass Beerus at all. However, we can't also be sure that Vegito is the one who is stronger.

[theherodjl]

SSJB Vegetto should be stronger if Kaioshin's estimation is correct, as it is the only statement thus far that compares someone besides Whis & Movie Saiyans to Beerus. The fusion is only temporary so its not out of the question to think that for less than an hour, SSJB Goku & Vegeta fused could surpass Beerus in raw power anyways, maybe not in technique or experience though.
Fusion always has been a broken plot device like that.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

We know for a fact that Vegito is stronger than beerus. It was stated through shin in the manga and in the anime Merged zamasu in his halo form was stated to be above the gods, the same guy that got put down by kaioken Goku.

Ssb Vegito>merged zamasu(light of justice)>Ssb kaioken x2 Goku>merged zamasu(halo)>all gods of destruction and angels.

[Darkprince410]

We know for a fact that Vegito is stronger than beerus. It was stated through shin in the manga and in the anime Merged zamasu in his halo form was stated to be above the gods, the same guy that got put down by kaioken Goku.

Except Kaioushin doesn't state it as a fact. The way he worded it simply expressed possibility, not certainty. Remember, he's never seen Beerus use his full power before at all, as the only time he's ever seen Beerus use any real amount of his power was against Ssj God Goku, so he's essentially just guessing at that point.

In the anime, the only person to state that Zamasu was above the gods was Zamasu himself, and since Toriyama himself said that Goku and Vegeta, by that point, hadn't surpassed Beerus and Whis, Zamasu being overpowered by Goku, as you pointed out, would mean that Beerus would still be above Zamasu.

[BlueBasilisk]

I'm not sure Beerus is as far ahead of the heroes as he wants us and them to believe. We know he wasn't using his full power against Super Saiyan God Goku, but that was before Blue and Kaioken and Goku and Vegeta have improved quite a bit since then.

[Darkprince410]

I'm not sure Beerus is as far ahead of the heroes as he wants us and them to believe. We know he wasn't using his full power against Super Saiyan God Goku, but that was before Blue and Kaioken and Goku and Vegeta have improved quite a bit since then.

In an interview that Toriyama did with Toyotaro after having written the plot outline for the Future Trunks arc, he said that he had no plans at that time for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis. As such, the current arc of Super is the first time where he could have them step out of Beerus's shadows strength wise.

[dragonball0900]

In the anime, the only person to state that Zamasu was above the gods was Zamasu himself, and since Toriyama himself said that Goku and Vegeta, by that point, hadn't surpassed Beerus and Whis, Zamasu being overpowered by Goku, as you pointed out, would mean that Beerus would still be above Zamasu.

Well Goku manages to hold his own against him, and it happens in the manga, where even if Beerus is above Fused Zamasu, there's still Vegito, who in the manga is able to stomp Fused Zamasu. That means that Future Zamasu coud've probably being made weaker in the manga, to make him comparable to Goku.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

We know for a fact that Vegito is stronger than beerus. It was stated through shin in the manga and in the anime Merged zamasu in his halo form was stated to be above the gods, the same guy that got put down by kaioken Goku.

Except Kaioushin doesn't state it as a fact. The way he worded it simply expressed possibility, not certainty. Remember, he's never seen Beerus use his full power before at all, as the only time he's ever seen Beerus use any real amount of his power was against Ssj God Goku, so he's essentially just guessing at that point.

In the anime, the only person to state that Zamasu was above the gods was Zamasu himself, and since Toriyama himself said that Goku and Vegeta, by that point, hadn't surpassed Beerus and Whis, Zamasu being overpowered by Goku, as you pointed out, would mean that Beerus would still be above Zamasu.

Sounds like denial to me. The Kaioshin stated that zamasu was above the gods, not zamasu. Shin knows more than the reader and you aren't writing the story, so the notion that shin guessed is baseless. The statement wasn't said for no reason. We never saw Goku tell Gohan about his battle with Botamo, but he did. Will reiterate this again so you don't keep repeating yourself. You don't know anything about who's guessing about what since you aren't writing the story.

No, Ssb Goku isn't stronger than beerus. Ssb kaioken overpowered someone stated to be stronger than beerus. Kaioken is just a technique, not a state. When black was stated to be the strongest character besides beerus, obviously Kaioken isn't being taken into account. Freeza was stated to be gokus equal. Obviously kaioken isn't taken into account. It's just a technique like the Kamehameha.

Also toriyamas 6-10-15 scale dispels any notion of kaioken Goku being weaker than beerus.

[Darkprince410]

Sounds like denial to me. The Kaioshin stated that zamasu was above the gods, not zamasu. Shin knows more than the reader and you aren't writing the story, so the notion that shin guessed is baseless. The statement wasn't said for no reason. We never saw Goku tell Gohan about his battle with Botamo, but he did. Will reiterate this again so you don't keep repeating yourself. You don't know anything about who's guessing about what since you aren't writing the story.

No, Ssb Goku isn't stronger than beerus. Ssb kaioken overpowered someone stated to be stronger than beerus. Kaioken is just a technique, not a state. When black was stated to be the strongest character besides beerus, obviously Kaioken isn't being taken into account. Freeza was stated to be gokus equal. Obviously kaioken isn't taken into account. It's just a technique like the Kamehameha.

Also toriyamas 6-10-15 scale dispels any notion of kaioken Goku being weaker than beerus.

1) You'll have to point me to the particular episode/scene, as I watched through the first two episodes with fused Zamasu before responding, and all I ever saw specifically was Zamasu referring to himself as being above the gods. At what point would Kaioushin have had any situation to have sensed the full level of Beerus's power? Prior to the Battle of Gods arc he had only "heard" of him, and Beerus has, at no point afterward, used the full extent of his power. If anything, the most Kaioushin would have in that regard knowledge wise would have been Goku's battle against Beerus in said arc, when he lied about using his full power. There's never been any reason or suggestion that he's tangled with anyone more powerful than that since the start of Super.

2) It's a technique, yes, but many times over it's been factored in to descriptions of Goku's strength vs. others. As for the discrepancies involving it being used in the anime or not, one can reasonably infer, given that it doesn't appear in the manga and that Toyotaro was indicated to have followed Toriyama's notes to the letter up to that point, Toriyama didn't have Goku using the Kaiou-ken in Super. It's basically a Toei Animation addition and diversion off Toriyama's notes, and thus is essentially the equivalent of filler. Regardless though, since the Kaiou-ken in the anime is something Goku can sustain for awhile, technique or not it's still his overall strength, thus Toriyama's comment can only logically encompass it.

3) Toriyama's scale was for the Battle of Gods movie only, and given his later statement involving Goku's strength compared to Beerus can't exclude the Kaiou-ken if you're taking the anime into the mix, then no, the 6-10-15 scale can't carry over.

[Doctor.]

No, because the manga literally states Vegetto is stronger. No reason to believe anime Vegetto isn't the same strength if it doesn't contradict anything.

[Lord Beerus]

In the manga, it is implied by Kaioshin that SSJB Vegetto may be stronger than Beerus but the anime there was no direct hypothetical correlation of Vegetto's strength to that of Beerus. Not to mention we still have actually no idea of how strong Beerus is at full strength.

[Lord Frieza]

In the manga, it is implied by Kaioshin that SSJB Vegetto may be stronger than Beerus but the anime there was no direct hypothetical correlation of Vegetto's strength to that of Beerus. Not to mention we still have actually no idea of how strong Beerus is at full strength.

So pretty much Manga Vegito is the only one pre-ToP who might be in Beerus's ball park at full power. But until we get a stick to measure by its all conjecture.

Lets just say their roughly equal until we get more info.

[HeroR]

We know for a fact that Vegito is stronger than beerus. It was stated through shin in the manga and in the anime Merged zamasu in his halo form was stated to be above the gods, the same guy that got put down by kaioken Goku.

Except Kaioushin doesn't state it as a fact. The way he worded it simply expressed possibility, not certainty. Remember, he's never seen Beerus use his full power before at all, as the only time he's ever seen Beerus use any real amount of his power was against Ssj God Goku, so he's essentially just guessing at that point.

In the anime, the only person to state that Zamasu was above the gods was Zamasu himself, and since Toriyama himself said that Goku and Vegeta, by that point, hadn't surpassed Beerus and Whis, Zamasu being overpowered by Goku, as you pointed out, would mean that Beerus would still be above Zamasu.

It should be noted that Goku hurt a suppressed Merged Zamasu. The moment he got serious, Goku said they stood no chance without fusion. Even then, Merged Zamasu was almost an even match with Vegetto Blue. In fact, pure power raise, he may have been stronger since he knocked Vegetto on his butt. Gowasu, who is far more knowledgeable than Shin, was shocked by how strong Zamasu was and said he never felt anything like it. Now, unless you think Gowasu is also very naive about Beerus' power, you really can't handwave his comment as him not knowing unlike Shin.

Overall, where Merged Zamasu and Vegetto Blue stands next to Beerus is purposely left vague in the anime. Even in the manga where Shin called Vegetto stronger than Beerus, he said 'may' and this was when Vegetto was powering up the Final Kamehameha. On top of that, Toyo was coy when directly asked if Vegetto was stronger than Beerus with him admitted that Shin was unreliable.