SSJ Multiplier Can Increase

[mamoru]

Okay, so almost the whole DB Community knows the SSJ Multiplier which is 50x. There has been theories that states that the multipliers decrease, or increase. I actually think the multiplier increases for a fully mastered Super Saiyan. It's been proven by Toriyama's statement in an interview. "Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more."

I think this means that SSJ2 and 3 are actually pointless since their only powered up variations of the original SSJ. So this means that a fully mastered Super Saiyan would have a hypothetical 400x multiplier?

[Darkprince410]

Well, there are a few things to note. For starters, given that he later states in that same entry that we'd not likely see him go beyond Ssj again, then repeatedly does so when it comes to Super, the chances are that he's not adhering to anything in there as a rule anymore.

More importantly though, what he said doesn't necessarily mean that. What he's saying could very well be interpreted as him saying that Goku, if he focused on getting stronger in his base and Ssj form, could reach levels of strength in general where he wouldn't need to use less efficient transformations, even if they were stronger. Basically the same mindset he had with Full-power Super Saiyan back during the Cell arc. Ssj 2nd and 3rd Grade were more powerful forms themselves, but Goku saw how inefficient they were, and focused instead on the weaker, but more balanced regular Ssj form and they grew stronger that way. They bumped their base forms up to offset the weaker Ssj form, and thus were overall stronger than the likes of Vegeta and Trunks, but in a far more efficient form for long-term combat.

[theherodjl]

Okay, so almost the whole DB Community knows the SSJ Multiplier which is 50x. There has been theories that states that the multipliers decrease, or increase. I actually think the multiplier increases for a fully mastered Super Saiyan. It's been proven by Toriyama's statement in an interview. "Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more."

I think this means that SSJ2 and 3 are actually pointless since their only powered up variations of the original SSJ. So this means that a fully mastered Super Saiyan would have a hypothetical 400x multiplier?

Toriyama's statement doesn't "prove" that the SSJ multiplier increases with FPSSJ, he's merely saying that Goku wasn't going to rely on the chain of SSJ2 & SSJ3 as a sole means of mastering his power.
Regardless, Goku still uses SSJ2 & SSJ3. If he simply improved the power of ordinary SSJ then he'd just use ordinary SSJ, he'd have no reason whatsoever to continue using SSJ2/SSJ3.
Take his spar with Trunks for example. In the anime, Goku powers up to SSJ3 for superiority over SSJ2 Trunks which is indication that he hasn't suddenly trained SSJ to be greater than what it was from base because it may have been a pointless, or overly complicated endeavor. In the manga, SSJ3 Goku was briefly overpowered by SSJ2 Trunks powering up to his maximum so Goku jumped to his god form in an instant to defeat Trunks. This is also an indication that Goku cannot improve SSJ2 or SSJ3 to higher levels beyond what they grant from his base.
Its an interesting concept for sure, but its unlikely that Goku has discovered a way to further empower the previous levels of SSJ to become more powerful than what they grant. Especially since the godly level offers so much more in strength and other abilities.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Okay, so almost the whole DB Community knows the SSJ Multiplier which is 50x. There has been theories that states that the multipliers decrease, or increase. I actually think the multiplier increases for a fully mastered Super Saiyan. It's been proven by Toriyama's statement in an interview. "Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more."

I think this means that SSJ2 and 3 are actually pointless since their only powered up variations of the original SSJ. So this means that a fully mastered Super Saiyan would have a hypothetical 400x multiplier?

Toriyama was forshadowing Super Saiyan Blue in this interview. He was talking about Goku after his battle with Beerus. After his battle with Beerus in BoG, Goku absorbed the power of SSG, and his base form became almost as strong as SSG. Transforming into a Super Saiyan didn't increase his power significantly, if at all. By the time of FnF, Goku's Super Saiyan form had turned into Super Saiyan Blue. Super Saiyan Blue wasn't achieved by going beyond SS3, it was achieved by mastering Super Saiyan with SSG power.

However, the multiplier of Super Saiyan 2 can be increased, at least in the Super manga. SS2 is normaly a x100 multiplier, but Future Trunks has made it a x400 multiplier, and SS2 makes Vegeta thousands times stronger (stronger than Ultimate Gohan).

In the manga also, the power of Black's Super Saiyan form appeared to be between somewhere between Super Saiyan God & Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, implying that the multiplier of the Super Saiyan with God power form increases through training until the point it becomes Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

[TheGodfather93]

Personally, I've always hated the idea that Super Saiyan multipliers were a static number that never increased. I'm not a big fan of the concept of wanting to put a number to everything, whether it be some obscure transformation or some forgettable villain's battle power. Anyway, Super Saiyan multipliers never sat well with me, given how SSJ, ASSJ, USSJ and MSSJ appeared to give drastically different boosts, and yet all were still below SSJ2.

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I much prefer the SSJ multipliers model used in the hugely popular fanfic Bringer of Death, as outlined here. Basically, using this system, turning Super Saiyan for the first time gives a set boost to your battle power: 145 million. However, that boost can be increased through training, with the training Goku and Gohan did in the ROSAT being the most efficient method. Eventually, both one's base form and Super Saiyan boost would plateau, making further training pointless, which is what happened to Goku and Gohan after their ROSAT training. It also fits with what Goku said when he declined to go back into the ROSAT, as it wouldn't make a difference. At this point, the only way to make any further gains from training would be to achieve SSJ2, surpassing one's limits and increasing their maximum cap even further.

I feel this model makes a fair bit more sense than the static x50, x100 and x400 multipiers. I'm not sure how well it would fit in Super, which is whack when it comes to power scaling, but I definitely prefer it to what is generally accepted.

[Captain Strawberry]

In the BoG movie, it's implied base Goku hasn't surpassed Frieza so I'd assume the SSJ power works like a save game

[Grimlock]

In the BoG movie, it's implied base Goku hasn't surpassed Frieza

Huh? Where does Movie 14 even imply that!?

[Captain Strawberry]

In the BoG movie, it's implied base Goku hasn't surpassed Frieza

Huh? Where does Movie 14 even imply that!?

Do you remember when Beerus was checking out Goku while Goku was in his base form? Beerus wasn't confident enough that Goku could take on Frieza but when Goku transforms, Beerus can see how Goku could have defeated Frieza. Though all of this is implied and not explicitly explained so it is kinda vague.

[Grimlock]

I remember that, but he's not referring to Movie 14 base Goku. Whis told him that Goku couldn't beat Freeza and had to transform (being able to surpass Freeza's power upon transforming). Then Beerus tells the same when he meets Goku, he learned that Freeza saga base Goku couldn't defeat Freeza and that he had to transform to turn the table.

There's no way Freeza saga Super Saiyan Goku is stronger than Movie 14 base Goku; this is a claim only by someone who just started watching this show.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I remember that, but he's not referring to Movie 14 base Goku. Whis told him that Goku couldn't beat Freeza and had to transform (being able to surpass Freeza's power upon transforming). Then Beerus tells the same when he meets Goku, he learned that Freeza saga base Goku couldn't defeat Freeza and that he had to transform to turn the table.

There's no way Freeza saga Super Saiyan Goku is stronger than Movie 14 base Goku; this is a claim only by someone who just started watching this show.

Beerus literally says that base Goku as he saw him in person shouldn't be strong enough to beat Freeza, and Kaio agrees with him.

[Grimlock]

No, as I said, he reiterates what Whis told him, he couldn't beat Freeza the way he was, but learned that he had to transform.

Again, saying Freeza saga Super Saiyan Goku is stronger than Movie 14 base is the biggest nonsense one could ever create, forget power level subject, forget Broly character... Forget everything, this claim would be the biggest nonsense ever. Each battle, each saga, the characters keep getting stronger and stronger; this kind of claim goes against everything, goes against one of the most basic rules in Dragon Ball.

[theherodjl]

No, as I said, he reiterates what Whis told him, he couldn't beat Freeza the way he was, but learned that he had to transform.

Again, saying Freeza saga Super Saiyan Goku is stronger than Movie 14 base is the biggest nonsense one could ever create, forget power level subject, forget Broly character... Forget everything, this claim would be the biggest nonsense ever. Each battle, each saga, the characters keep getting stronger and stronger; this kind of claim goes against everything, goes against one of the most basic rules in Dragon Ball.

What is there to say that BOG Base Goku is assuredly stronger than SSJ Namek Goku? That sounds like nonsense in itself.
Sure, DB characters get stronger but its always by the plot-convenient amount, not necessarily by any amount that allows them to defeat all of the coming foes. Notable examples include: The Z senshi training for the Saiyans, despite all becoming significantly stronger our heroes would have lost to the Saiyans if not for circumstances. Next, Freeza and his minions, once more all of them became significantly stronger yet again but Freeza would have destroyed them all had he not jerked around. Same with the Androids and Cell, despite all improving vastly over the course of several years they almost bit the big one many times had the villains not allowed them to succeed. Then there's Majin Boo but that's beating a dead horse, the point is they get stronger but not strong enough to win without luck and the many opportunities granted by villains.
Goku himself trained for 7 years only to improve over his son's power by a moderate degree, that's pretty weak considering that was 7 whole years of nonstop training while Gohan loafed around and lost just a slight amount of power.

[Grimlock]

The characters would get stomp by the main villains because they ̶a̶r̶e̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶n̶a̶m̶e̶d̶ ̶G̶o̶k̶u̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶V̶e̶g̶e̶t̶a̶ didn't train enough to surpass their power level and/or didn't get a power-up/transformation, but Saiyans surely and always got an increase in power after each battle, mainly if in the middle of it they came nearly to die and got healed. If Goku had kept his power from Freeza saga all over to Majin Buu, he wouldn't be able to transform into Super Saiyan 2, let alone Super Saiyan 3 at all. He wouldn't be able to put up all the fights that he put up. He wouldn't be able to do anything with such "low" power level that he had back in Freeza saga.

I really can't even fathom this idea you are saying here. I don't understand why a simple line from Beerus obviously referring to Freeza saga Super Saiyan Goku is, in 2017, misinterpreted as if he was referring to Movie 14 base Goku... All the trainings, all the effort, all the battles, everything would be for nothing, a total waste of time and everything he accomplished would be asspull since he shouldn't have enough power level to attain the other forms if he had the same power level from way before. Vegeta even says that if you lack training as time passes, you get weaker, see Gohan vs Dabura fight, if this happens, then obviously they train to get stronger. But anyway...

[Pantalones]

If Goku had kept his power from Freeza saga all over to Majin Buu, he wouldn't be able to transform into Super Saiyan 2, let alone Super Saiyan 3 at all. He wouldn't be able to put up all the fights that he put up. He wouldn't be able to do anything with such "low" power level that he had back in Freeza saga.

Nobody's saying that Goku's base power hasn't changed at all between Freeza and Buu. Only that his power is still significantly below 120,000,000 in his base form after all those years.

His power level could even be almost up to Freeza's level, like around 100 million or so... that's definitely not "keeping his power from Freeza Saga to Majin Buu." Goku's base power could have increased massively over those years while also being below 120 million by a wide enough margin that Beerus would consider Goku's power insufficient for taking on Freeza.

[theherodjl]

The characters would get stomp by the main villains because they ̶a̶r̶e̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶n̶a̶m̶e̶d̶ ̶G̶o̶k̶u̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶V̶e̶g̶e̶t̶a̶ didn't train enough to surpass their power level and/or didn't get a power-up/transformation, but Saiyans surely and always got an increase in power after each battle, mainly if in the middle of it they came nearly to die and got healed. If Goku had kept his power from Freeza saga all over to Majin Buu, he wouldn't be able to transform into Super Saiyan 2, let alone Super Saiyan 3 at all. He wouldn't be able to put up all the fights that he put up. He wouldn't be able to do anything with such "low" power level that he had back in Freeza saga.

I really can't even fathom this idea you are saying here. I don't understand why a simple line from Beerus obviously referring to Freeza saga Super Saiyan Goku is, in 2017, misinterpreted as if he was referring to Movie 14 base Goku... All the trainings, all the effort, all the battles, everything would be for nothing, a total waste of time and everything he accomplished would be asspull since he shouldn't have enough power level to attain the other forms if he had the same power level from way before. Vegeta even says that if you lack training as time passes, you get weaker, see Gohan vs Dabura fight, if this happens, then obviously they train to get stronger. But anyway...

Personal preference towards strength gains is not proof that Goku's base in BOG is greater than his SSJ power on Namek.
Aside from that, what exactly do you mean when you say that Goku couldn't achieve SSJ2 or SSJ3 if his strength didn't increase? Are you trying to say SSJ2 & 3 usage is dependent on the level of a Saiyan's power or that had he not trained he never would have discovered either form?
What I'm saying is that Goku can be stronger than he was on Namek, however that doesn't necessarily equate to his base being above Freeza. Base Goku was at 3,000,000 against Freeza's 120,000,000, its a difference of 117,000,000 or 39x the power of his Namek base. It leaves a significant amount of growth for Goku to overcome, I don't doubt he could be 10-20x stronger by the beginning of BOG but he doesn't have to be 39x stronger for his strength gains to make sense.

[mamoru]

If Goku had kept his power from Freeza saga all over to Majin Buu, he wouldn't be able to transform into Super Saiyan 2, let alone Super Saiyan 3 at all. He wouldn't be able to put up all the fights that he put up. He wouldn't be able to do anything with such "low" power level that he had back in Freeza saga.

Nobody's saying that Goku's base power hasn't changed at all between Freeza and Buu. Only that his power is still significantly below 120,000,000 in his base form after all those years.

His power level could even be almost up to Freeza's level, like around 100 million or so... that's definitely not "keeping his power from Freeza Saga to Majin Buu." Goku's base power could have increased massively over those years while also being below 120 million by a wide enough margin that Beerus would consider Goku's power insufficient for taking on Freeza.

The Base Saiyans are way above Frieza. There's too much evidence that supports this. When Beerus checks Goku, poking him around, he says he's not as strong as Freeza, then Goku transforms to a SSJ, and Beerus STILL thought Goku just beat Frieza in a whim. This was a very clear indication that Goku was suppressing himself, unless you want to say that his SSJ form still couldn't beat Freeza, which is crazy. Goku CAN Suppress his SSJ form to be weaker than his normal base form. Even as a Super Saiyan Blue, he got freaking shot by Sorbet's laser ring gun. Especially as a Mastered Super Saiyan, Vegeta and Piccolo stated that they don't feel the usual energy around a SSJ and it's like their in their normal state. Now the evidence that supports Base Goku>Frieza.

Evidence:

This is a shaky argument, but Piccolo learned from Trunks, that the Androids basically could bully Trunks. Then 3 years later, after training, he was confident that he could beat the Androids, who could fodderize Super Saiyans. Goku might have only been training in his base form with Piccolo, and if Piccolo got a huge boost, why can't a Saiyan? I know this is a shaky arguement, but it's still supporting evidence.

Another shaky one is when Vegeta was super confident that he could defeat every one in the Tournament, which included Android 18 and Piccolo. Although Vegeta is being his character, all arrogant and when it comes to the real battle, he's gonna be like, "oh shit I forgot how strong you were".

Now we get into the real arguments. Supreme Kai NOTED that the Z Fighters could take on Frieza, yet he wasn't sure, that he could take on Pui Pui and Yakon. The thing about Pui Pui and Yakon is, Vegeta was able to destroy Pui Pui, and Goku was able to toy around with Yakon in Base. Pui Pui might not be Frieza level, but Yakon would definitely be. Yakon was able to shove MSSJ Goku after 7 years of training, and that's a great feat. Frieza at this point can't even make Goku flinch.

Now this time I'm gonna be using a filler, and I'm not trying to say it's canon. So Pikkon, was able to one shot Frieza and King Cold without them even noticing, in his Weights. Now the interesting thing about Pikkon, is that Base Goku after training in other world for a little bit, actually overpowered Pikkon, who one shotted King Cold and Frieza. That means Goku would be able to do the same thing Pikkon did against Frieza, and kick Suppressed Cell to the freaking lake. Now that's anime only.

Now we get into specials. In Yo Son Goku and His Friends Return, Abo and Cado is as strong as Freeza. And when Goku and Vegeta hear Frieza, they think that he's complete Fodder, and just threw Goten and Trunks in. Now Goku might have been thinking of Full Power Frieza, when Tarble mentions it, they didn't even warn Goten and Trunks by saying go Super Saiyan or something.

Now the last argument is with Kibito. Gohan is stronger than Kibito in the DAIZENSHUU itself. If Gohan was serious, he would most likely beat Kibito. This was when Gohan was still playing the "Great Saiyaman" and he thought that if he used his Full Power Base form, he could beat Kibito. Kibito thought mortals as Fodder, and he knew all about Frieza. Even after fighting Gohan, he was still confident in his ability that he even said to Gohan that "Even I couldn't do it, and how could you?"

[Desassina]

There's no such thing as a multiplier, except for Kaioken, which can increase in number. Goku went from 2, 3, 4 and then 10 as stated by Hit. It just so happens that when they transform, they are some quantity higher than before, which can be expressed by multiplication, but there's no evidence of it being fixed, much less the number 50. Think about it:

1. If SSJ is 50 and SSJ2 is 100, then Goku is exactly at half of his full power, which is the limit before SSJ2. It is evidenced by SSJ2 Trunks going all the way up to match SSJ3 Goku.
2. For Goku to have powered up into half of it, as a SSJ in front of Korin, he must have been lower than 50. Akira Toriyama gave us the number 10 and it could be a starting place.
3. Last, but not the least, Cell used the equivalent of Grade II SSJ in front of Trunks, when he could power up all the way without deformation, and weight himself with more.

In a way, we were shown that transformations could stack on top of their current state, their power included. Without access to their full power, lower transformations are shortcuts, but merely the showcase otherwise.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, as I said, he reiterates what Whis told him, he couldn't beat Freeza the way he was, but learned that he had to transform.

Beerus literally says that base Goku can't beat Freeza the way he is right now after carefully observing him. You should watch the scene again. You may disagree with the scene, but this is what was said in the movie.

Again, saying Freeza saga Super Saiyan Goku is stronger than Movie 14 base is the biggest nonsense one could ever create, forget power level subject, forget Broly character... Forget everything, this claim would be the biggest nonsense ever. Each battle, each saga, the characters keep getting stronger and stronger; this kind of claim goes against everything, goes against one of the most basic rules in Dragon Ball.

Who said that Goku didn't get any stronger at all? There is a huge gap between base & Super Saiyan, a x50 gap.

[Grimlock]

Observing what? A perfectly calm and relaxed Goku? After observing someone whose power he had never seen at full power before? He said "the way you are now" because he was in base form in that moment, not in Super Saiyan. Then he goes on to say that he learned that he can transform and that's why Goku could beat Freeza... Which is true, base Goku couldn't beat Freeza, that feat was only possible after transforming. He's referring to Freeza saga Goku all along.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Observing what? A perfectly calm and relaxed Goku? After observing someone whose power he had never seen at full power before? He said "the way you are now" because he was in base form in that moment, not in Super Saiyan. Then he goes on to say that he learned that he can transform and that's why Goku could beat Freeza... Which is true, base Goku couldn't beat Freeza, that feat was only possible after transforming. He's referring to Freeza saga Goku all along.

Beerus says that Goku shouldn't be able to defeat Freeza in base right now, but he should be able to transform into a Super Saiyan. Kaio's answer to that was that Beerus was correct & very well informed. If what Beerus said was incorrect, Kaio would have said "you are correct about the Super Saiyan transformation, but Goku can get much stronger than that without transforming" or something like that. He wouldn't say that Beerus was correct & very well informed.