Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
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Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
For being the "lord of everything" Zeno doesn't seem to have a vast array of powers & abilities that one would expect from a being comparable to God.
So far he has demonstrated; the ability to levitate or fly like many beings in DB do, materialize small objects, live for several tens of millions of years, survive in an extinguished void, and erase objects ranging from individuals to entire universes. Does this actually justify him as being "strong" or "unbeatable" however?
He could simply be a entropy-centric reality warper with the ability to teleport all physical matter & energy into an extra dimensional realm that could be defined as "oblivion", similar to the abstract entity from Marvel Comics which collects everything that is destroyed. He is also described as not being a fighter and is unable to detect what Ki/godly Ki users do at very high speeds, is this a sign that he's just an over zealous "eraser" with no actual power over anyone besides the constant threat that he might erase them? Is that also why he's seemingly depicted as a child, as to say that he's an immature God still working out his true abilities among other things?
So far he has demonstrated; the ability to levitate or fly like many beings in DB do, materialize small objects, live for several tens of millions of years, survive in an extinguished void, and erase objects ranging from individuals to entire universes. Does this actually justify him as being "strong" or "unbeatable" however?
He could simply be a entropy-centric reality warper with the ability to teleport all physical matter & energy into an extra dimensional realm that could be defined as "oblivion", similar to the abstract entity from Marvel Comics which collects everything that is destroyed. He is also described as not being a fighter and is unable to detect what Ki/godly Ki users do at very high speeds, is this a sign that he's just an over zealous "eraser" with no actual power over anyone besides the constant threat that he might erase them? Is that also why he's seemingly depicted as a child, as to say that he's an immature God still working out his true abilities among other things?
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Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
I don't think he's strong in a typical sense (ie has a very powerful Chi) shown throughout the series. It's more of a natural thing. Zeno can completely annihilate universes and withstand the destruction just fine. Simply being the one above all naturally puts him a class where he can't be touched. The ability to erase anyone or anything is all he really needs.
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Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
Considering Zeno survived unscathed from wiping out an entire own timeline, yes, I'd figure him to be quite strong.
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Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
That doesn't necessarily mean that he tanks 'timeline-busting' attacks rather he's simply immune to the effects of his ability, which just seems to be a big white light that engulfs everything rather than make a multiversal explosion or fragmentation of the space/time barrier. Along with how Frost just seems to zip away from the ability, Zeno's power works not unlike the Ultimate Nullifier which sends objects directly to Oblivion upon contact. No huge shockwave seems to be emitted which leads to Zeno blunting or absorbing such a force.Lord Beerus wrote:Considering Zeno survived unscathed from wiping out an entire own timeline, yes, I'd figure him to be quite strong.
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Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
Kaioshin claimed that he can't be defeated, so I think it's safe to say that he's actually strong, and has a matching durability to go with it. I don't think the gods would fear him as much as they do if he simply had a special ability. All it would take is for a sneak attack from one of the gods to kill him before he has a chance to use his Erase.
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Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
That could work if there weren't 4 guards and the strongest angel alongside with him 24/7.. And now there's two of them..Melee_Sovereign wrote: All it would take is for a sneak attack from one of the gods to kill him before he has a chance to use his Erase.
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Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
The manga shows Zeno isn’t able to “see” even the Gods of Destruction fight because they are too fast.
He is likely just immortal and can manipulate all reality making him both impervious to anything in reality while being able to control it. The exception seems to be that Zeno is limited by time itself.
Basically Zeno would likely lose to a lot of people in and arm wrestling match but since he controls reality he would just naturally more the other hand.
Also it doesn’t appear that he is omniscient either.
He is likely just immortal and can manipulate all reality making him both impervious to anything in reality while being able to control it. The exception seems to be that Zeno is limited by time itself.
Basically Zeno would likely lose to a lot of people in and arm wrestling match but since he controls reality he would just naturally more the other hand.
Also it doesn’t appear that he is omniscient either.
Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
As of now, Zen-Oh represents *the* most powerful destructive force in the Dragon Ball Multiverse(to the point where even Destroyers quake in fear of him.) He also seems to be a linear being, who is confined to his own sequential timeline(s). Moreover, he isn't classified as a "fighter", per se -- evidently he is beyond fighting all together. That said, while I don't imagine that Zen-Oh has much physical/fighting prowess to speak of, he could still erase every single being at the ToP with the snap of his fingers(inc. Angels and Destroyers.) So in *that* respect, he is very much 'strong'.
*All of that being said: I won't be overly surprised if it is eventually revealed that Daishinkan is actually more powerful than Zen-Oh himself, and has the power to put him in check if the need arises -- the Whis to Zen-Oh's Beerus, if you will. I mean, aside from all of his other, very fallible, qualities, Zen-Oh doesn't seem to have much *depth* of power for a 'Supreme Being'(ie. he comes off primarily as a destroyer; not a creator)... And typically Supreme Beings represent both sides -- the Alpha AND the Omega. Granted, we could certainly see the 'Alpha' side of Zen-Oh's power in episodes to come, but as of *now* he just doesn't seem like 'God' to me. /shrug
*All of that being said: I won't be overly surprised if it is eventually revealed that Daishinkan is actually more powerful than Zen-Oh himself, and has the power to put him in check if the need arises -- the Whis to Zen-Oh's Beerus, if you will. I mean, aside from all of his other, very fallible, qualities, Zen-Oh doesn't seem to have much *depth* of power for a 'Supreme Being'(ie. he comes off primarily as a destroyer; not a creator)... And typically Supreme Beings represent both sides -- the Alpha AND the Omega. Granted, we could certainly see the 'Alpha' side of Zen-Oh's power in episodes to come, but as of *now* he just doesn't seem like 'God' to me. /shrug
Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
The gods are not immortal so if someone destroyed where Zenoh was without Daishinkan knowing, Zenoh would die. It’s been established that no matter how strong you are, you can be defeated when you’re off your guard. Zenoh is not a fighter so he probably doesn’t have much control over his power.theherodjl wrote:That doesn't necessarily mean that he tanks 'timeline-busting' attacks rather he's simply immune to the effects of his ability, which just seems to be a big white light that engulfs everything rather than make a multiversal explosion or fragmentation of the space/time barrier. Along with how Frost just seems to zip away from the ability, Zeno's power works not unlike the Ultimate Nullifier which sends objects directly to Oblivion upon contact. No huge shockwave seems to be emitted which leads to Zeno blunting or absorbing such a force.Lord Beerus wrote:Considering Zeno survived unscathed from wiping out an entire own timeline, yes, I'd figure him to be quite strong.
Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
Zenoh is strong. I don’t get why people are doubting Zenoh’s strength/power. It’s kinda weird. It’s like saying that Beerus gets his power from Whis and Beerus is not that strong. Zenoh destroyed sox universes. He erased an entire world.
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Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
Erasure doesn't make Zeno strong under his own physical capabilities, it is his only offensive ability that doesn't involve him fighting or putting forth great effort.Meshack wrote:Zenoh is strong. I don’t get why people are doubting Zenoh’s strength/power. It’s kinda weird. It’s like saying that Beerus gets his power from Whis and Beerus is not that strong. Zenoh destroyed sox universes. He erased an entire world.
Take Mr Mxy from DC Comics, he is a 5th dimensional Imp with reality warping powers that allow him to manipulate the entire DC universe at will, to such a degree that even the Spectre(God's vengeance incarnate) is subject to Mxy's control. However in one instance, Mxy had his nigh-omnipotent control temporarily cut off and was beaten up by Superman Prime, he was durable enough not to die by the hands of the powerful Kryptonian but without his abilities he was susceptible to being KO'd much like anyone else.
Then we have someone like Mad Jim Jaspers from Marvel Comics, he is potentially one of the most powerful characters in Marvel's reality because he slowly gains innate control over anything around him. It was reaching a degree that MJJ would eventually take over the Marvel universe and then expand until he had conquered all of the other universes in the multiverse, then he could presumably wrest total internal control from even the will of The One Above All, aka God in Marvel. However he ended up being defeated upon being transported to a void of nothingness with a complete lack of anything material & immaterial, with nothing to control he was lobotomized and destroyed soon afterward. A quick loophole ended his omnipotence prematurely.
It just goes to show that once supposedly all-powerful beings are robbed of their one ability to neutralise any other threat, they simply revert to being ordinary or just slightly unique. If Zeno didn't have the ability to erase objects on the spot he'd likely not be any serious kind of threat therefore he's not actually strong, he just happens to be in possession of a haxx, override superability.
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Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
IMO Zeno has a bunch of destruction power but not a lot of speed seeing as how they can't track Dyspo.
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Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
Dragon Ball isn’t Marvel or DC Comics. Zenoh has been stated to have the power to destroy the univrrses. Quit questioning it. It was stated he erased six universes, he erased an entire world. Shin said Zenoh could not be defeated. What more do you need?theherodjl wrote:Erasure doesn't make Zeno strong under his own physical capabilities, it is his only offensive ability that doesn't involve him fighting or putting forth great effort.Meshack wrote:Zenoh is strong. I don’t get why people are doubting Zenoh’s strength/power. It’s kinda weird. It’s like saying that Beerus gets his power from Whis and Beerus is not that strong. Zenoh destroyed sox universes. He erased an entire world.
Take Mr Mxy from DC Comics, he is a 5th dimensional Imp with reality warping powers that allow him to manipulate the entire DC universe at will, to such a degree that even the Spectre(God's vengeance incarnate) is subject to Mxy's control. However in one instance, Mxy had his nigh-omnipotent control temporarily cut off and was beaten up by Superman Prime, he was durable enough not to die by the hands of the powerful Kryptonian but without his abilities he was susceptible to being KO'd much like anyone else.
Then we have someone like Mad Jim Jaspers from Marvel Comics, he is potentially one of the most powerful characters in Marvel's reality because he slowly gains innate control over anything around him. It was reaching a degree that MJJ would eventually take over the Marvel universe and then expand until he had conquered all of the other universes in the multiverse, then he could presumably wrest total internal control from even the will of The One Above All, aka God in Marvel. However he ended up being defeated upon being transported to a void of nothingness with a complete lack of anything material & immaterial, with nothing to control he was lobotomized and destroyed soon afterward. A quick loophole ended his omnipotence prematurely.
It just goes to show that once supposedly all-powerful beings are robbed of their one ability to neutralise any other threat, they simply revert to being ordinary or just slightly unique. If Zeno didn't have the ability to erase objects on the spot he'd likely not be any serious kind of threat therefore he's not actually strong, he just happens to be in possession of a haxx, override superability.
Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
Zenoh not being able to see Dyspo means that he wasn’t used to seeing that kind of speed. It’s nothing newHelios518 wrote:IMO Zeno has a bunch of destruction power but not a lot of speed seeing as how they can't track Dyspo.
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Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
You seem to be misunderstanding a few things.Meshack wrote:Dragon Ball isn’t Marvel or DC Comics. Zenoh has been stated to have the power to destroy the univrrses. Quit questioning it. It was stated he erased six universes, he erased an entire world. Shin said Zenoh could not be defeated. What more do you need?
1. I'm not placing DB onto Marvel or DC's rules but referencing a certain trope involving powerful beings across fiction sharing a particular shortcoming.
2. When did I state that Zeno couldn't destroy the universes? That's not what's being questioned here.
3. As long as Zeno is vigilant with his ability he cannot be defeated, it he were to be caught by surprise then that might not be the case.
He has an overpowered ability, true. However is he still the most powerful being without his only offensive technique?
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Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
I'm pretty sure his power comes from two factors:
1. His ability to erase things
2. His durability - he's essentially indestructible
It's been shown that some characters (like Dyspo and presumably the Angels) are too fast for him to keep up with, but that doesn't matter if they can't do anything to actually hurt him before he erases them.
1. His ability to erase things
2. His durability - he's essentially indestructible
It's been shown that some characters (like Dyspo and presumably the Angels) are too fast for him to keep up with, but that doesn't matter if they can't do anything to actually hurt him before he erases them.
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Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
I figure he's ludicrously powerful, but has little to no fighting skill and lacks the sort of "killer instinct" actual fighters would have. We've already seen him have trouble following high-speed combat, which seems to be a skill that's a combination of power and training/experience (or having weird alien super-eyes in the case of Jaco -- guess that's his, or his species', weird built-in ability like Burter's speed or Guldo's time weirdness.) His reflexes would seem super slow compared to the Gods of Destruction or god-level fighters like Goku or Jiren, and he wouldn't be very good at actually throwing a punch or kicking or dodging or blocking or any of those basic fighting skills that everyone else takes for granted. I guess you could compare him to the healing-oriented Dragon Clan Namekians, who are almost certainly in the 100+ range power level wise (and that's before getting potential unlocked and becoming God of Earth like Dende did) but since they aren't trained to fight and don't learn fighting techniques they're still considered to be "not fighters." Even though Dende is known to be more powerful than Kami since he's able to make more powerful Dragonballs, making him technically stronger than the entire cast of actually-fighters characters in pre-Z Dragonball even though he doesn't know how to fight!
Zen'oh is capable of releasing an insane amount of destructive godly ki which wipes out basically anything, either focused on a single target or just spreading to everything around him... but he'd end up looking like an idiot if he tried to fight somebody hand to hand rather than just unleashing that enormous ki in a sort of "super Hakai" technique that erases whatever he wants. He wouldn't necessarily get hurt at all by being smacked around by... I dunno, Freeza or somebody... due to his raw power (ki) being so high compared to everyone else that his durability would also be ridiculously high, but he wouldn't be able to keep up with the speed and skill of somebody in the god-levels of power who was an actual skilled fighter.
Zen'oh is capable of releasing an insane amount of destructive godly ki which wipes out basically anything, either focused on a single target or just spreading to everything around him... but he'd end up looking like an idiot if he tried to fight somebody hand to hand rather than just unleashing that enormous ki in a sort of "super Hakai" technique that erases whatever he wants. He wouldn't necessarily get hurt at all by being smacked around by... I dunno, Freeza or somebody... due to his raw power (ki) being so high compared to everyone else that his durability would also be ridiculously high, but he wouldn't be able to keep up with the speed and skill of somebody in the god-levels of power who was an actual skilled fighter.
Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
Zeno can erase anything, and is probably indestructible. Shin says with absolute certainty that he can't be defeated and is alive in Trunks' timeline.
There is a scene, however, where Grand Priest puts a shield around the Zenos during the spirit bomb Goku does against Jiren. But that could be for other reasons, maybe just so they weren't disturbed by it.
I don't think he has any sort of combat skill whatsoever, and probably can't show any feats of strength such as lifting something heavy or destroying something without erasing it from existence.
There is a scene, however, where Grand Priest puts a shield around the Zenos during the spirit bomb Goku does against Jiren. But that could be for other reasons, maybe just so they weren't disturbed by it.
I don't think he has any sort of combat skill whatsoever, and probably can't show any feats of strength such as lifting something heavy or destroying something without erasing it from existence.
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Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?
Well I agree that Zeno probably isn't so vulnerable to harm or destruction himself, Shin has a history of not being a very reliable witness to mortals weaker than him let alone gods stronger than he. Being a younger Kaioshin he had considerably less knowledge of Beerus' total history and abilities prior to Rou Kaioshin & Whis explaining it in greater detail, its not so farfetched that Shin would know even less about Zeno, who he had never personally met before, and would just be making the case of Zeno being unbeatable as far as he could figure rather than what he knew for sure.Jack Bz wrote:Zeno can erase anything, and is probably indestructible. Shin says with absolute certainty that he can't be defeated and is alive in Trunks' timeline.
There is a scene, however, where Grand Priest puts a shield around the Zenos during the spirit bomb Goku does against Jiren. But that could be for other reasons, maybe just so they weren't disturbed by it.
I don't think he has any sort of combat skill whatsoever, and probably can't show any feats of strength such as lifting something heavy or destroying something without erasing it from existence.
We may just see an upcoming arc reveal that there are loopholes in causing Zeno trouble or some type of physical inconvenience, then it will take Goku & Co to bail him out.
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