If Future Roshi did Secret Training, he could have saved the future

[rereboy]

The point i was addressing was that sintzu said that the original manga used logic,which is far from the truth.
Now you can argue which one is less logical but point is both are illogical.

There's no series out there that manages to be 100%, mathematically consistent regarding power and scaling. If we are really going to equate logic to absolute consistency, there's no logical series out there. There's always an acceptable margin for inconsistency which, frankly, varies from person to person. And it's fine if Super is still within that margin for you, but for me, it clearly is not.

[Whatever]

The point i was addressing was that sintzu said that the original manga used logic,which is far from the truth.
Now you can argue which one is less logical but point is both are illogical.

There's no series out there that manages to be 100%, mathematically consistent regarding power and scaling. If we are really going to equate logic to absolute consistency, there's no logical series out there. There's always an acceptable margin for inconsistency which, frankly, varies from person to person. And it's fine if Super is still within that margin for you, but for me, it clearly is not.

I never said super was logical or consistent,i meant that despite it being 'less' logical than the original manga,its not that far(far in comparison to your analogy at the least)in inconsistency to the original manga than you or other people make it out to be.
Super is certainly worse in that category but within range from the level of inconsistency i am used to from the original.

Simply put,as an example i find Freeza's gains illogical as i found Piccolo's training gains from King kai illogical as well,those kind of problems existed since dbz but most people make it out like dbs created them,not that dbs helped solve them,in fact it made them worse.

[rereboy]

Super is certainly worse in that category but within range from the level of inconsistency i am used to from the original.

Simply put,as an example i find Freeza's gains illogical as i found Piccolo's training gains from King kai illogical as well,those kind of problems existed since dbz but most people make it out like dbs created them,not that dbs helped solve them,in fact it made them worse.

I disagree. Like I said, those are of a completely different level of magnitude, like one missing a target by a dozen meters and one missing a target by a kilometer. In the original series, not only was the magnitude of the inconsistencies much more palatable, but even when they were inconsistent at least the series, most of the time, attempted to justify it, like when Piccolo gained much more power than he should at Kaio's, the series attempted to justify it with the fact that he had been under a completely new training, under a god, with higher gravity and that it was a pretty special training in the grand scheme of things, the most special training shown so far in the series. Super doesn't even care. It just tells you: oh, he's randomly that strong now because training I guess.

[The_Destroyer]

The original manga used logic and already set up Roshi at a certain level so no matter how much training he could've done, it wouldn't have gotten him anywhere near the androids level.

Super on the other hand could have him out of nowhere be on Jerin's level so it's pointless to use its "logic" when talking about the original manga.

Roshi isnt as strong as people think, even in Super. I cant see why Roshi couldnt have beaten the Androids if he used Mafuba. Have Gohan and Trunks hold one off, he captures the other and seals that. And repeat for the other one and be done with it

Because he'd die and with beings that strong there's no guarantee that he'll be able to get them in his container or if it'll even hold them.

He was able to mafuba Frost, who is far stronger than future 17 & 18. And let's not forget that he was exhausted from fighting universe 4 when he mafuba'd frost, and he still survived. Secret training Roshi would be able to mafuba both androids and live.

[sintzu]

He was able to mafuba Frost, who is far stronger than future 17 & 18. And let's not forget that he was exhausted from fighting universe 4 when he mafuba'd frost, and he still survived. Secret training Roshi would be able to mafuba both androids and live.

Like I said, when talking about the original manga I leave Super's events out of it and this is exactly why. He went from dying against Piccolo after trying it ONCE to whatever this mess is called.

[DSB]

He was able to mafuba Frost, who is far stronger than future 17 & 18. And let's not forget that he was exhausted from fighting universe 4 when he mafuba'd frost, and he still survived. Secret training Roshi would be able to mafuba both androids and live.

Like I said, when talking about the original manga I leave Super's events out of it and this is exactly why. He went from dying against Piccolo after trying it ONCE to whatever this mess is called.

Do you watch Super? Please dont.

[sintzu]

Do you watch Super? Please dont.

Of course I do and why not ? you can't take opposite opinions ?

[DSB]

Do you watch Super? Please dont.

Of course I do and why not ? you can't take opposite opinions ?

Because i see people whining about Super all the time but still watch it. And then try to ruin the show for us who spend our week in anticipation on Sunday's new episodes. I hope you arent one of them because if you are then this is my final reply to you.

[sintzu]

Because i see people whining about Super all the time but still watch it.

And then try to ruin the show for us who spend our week in anticipation on Sunday's new episodes.

I hope you arent one of them because if you are then this is my final reply to you.

What's wrong with calling it out on things we don't agree with ? I watch it because I enjoy it, even if I don't agree with it all the time.

How am I ruining it by stating what I don't like about it ?

When everyone was upset about the tournament's first episode I was the first one to say it was just starting and will get better as it goes on. When everyone was upset about how the Trunks arc ended I said it was a bold move on their part to end it that way. I said multiple times that although the current arc isn't that good, I still believe the next arc will make up for it. Do I really sound like someone who hates super and just watches it to ruin it for everyone ?

[theherodjl]

He was able to mafuba Frost, who is far stronger than future 17 & 18. And let's not forget that he was exhausted from fighting universe 4 when he mafuba'd frost, and he still survived. Secret training Roshi would be able to mafuba both androids and live.

Like I said, when talking about the original manga I leave Super's events out of it and this is exactly why. He went from dying against Piccolo after trying it ONCE to whatever this mess is called.

As I said before in an older thread, opting to neglect Super's events & rules in regards to older material's logic is an out of universe preference and doesn't hold enough weight to justify ignoring what newer content has established.
It can be described as messy, contradictory, or illogical but retcons are not known for being perfect or sensible when it comes to fan opinion, past tense does not override current media's reinterpretation.

[Lord Beerus]

Okay, I'm going to blunt... I hate threads like this. Because it shows a distinct lack of critical thinking among the Dragon Ball fandom, as well the tendency to take everything that happens in Dragon Ball, and Super for some specific reasons, to unnecessarily and illogical extremes.

I've ranted about this in past, I so I'll re-post my stance on this:

There's no universal gradient that must be abided to when a character grows in power. Some people make small gains through training for a very long time and others make great gains from training for a much lesser amount of time. Some do it on their own with basic tools and others do it with the aid of others or unique enhancements. It's all really dependable on... well... what the plot demands. Some use gimmicks and get special treatment to take shortcuts in get stronger while other just do it the old fashioned way.

Now I understand people's issues. I'd love for more detail on certain characters get stronger. But the only people who really put a glass ceiling on the possible gains in strength a character can attain are the fanbase, not the writers. Yes, the writers do have an obligation to provide more detail for how strong characters can get, but it's not their job to bend over to the will of a fanbase who want their theories and hypothesis of just how strong characters can truly get under certain circumstances to be justified. Some people may have an issue with it and others don't. Some people what don't like the idea of basic training being applied to characters and them getting much stronger from it, and others don't mind because in the past it has been show that even basic training can yield great results from some characters in growing stronger.

Now is Super using this liberty a bit too much? Well, it's how much you're willing to suspend your disbelief. If you're will to accept the notion that characters can achieve varying levels of increased strength on their own through training, as we've been told can happen in the happen in the past, it shouldn't been now a real issue. But if you want more detail to how any given character gets "X" times stronger in training, whether by themselves, or by training with someone, then your criticism is warranted if the circumstance in the show isn't explained appropriately. But keep in mind, this is franchise that loves to play it loose and swift with how strong the characters are to make the narrative as entertaining as possible. I mean, it is a show about fighting. And one of the main themes in Dragon Ball is: "y training + x character = RNG times more powerful"

[The_Destroyer]

Okay, I'm going to blunt... I hate threads like this. Because it shows a distinct lack of critical thinking among the Dragon Ball fandom, as well the tendency to take everything that happens in Dragon Ball, and Super for some specific reasons, to unnecessarily and illogical extremes.

I've ranted about this in past, I so I'll re-post my stance on this:

There's no universal gradient that must be abided to when a character grows in power. Some people make small gains through training for a very long time and others make great gains from training for a much lesser amount of time. Some do it on their own with basic tools and others do it with the aid of others or unique enhancements. It's all really dependable on... well... what the plot demands. Some use gimmicks and get special treatment to take shortcuts in get stronger while other just do it the old fashioned way.

Now I understand people's issues. I'd love for more detail on certain characters get stronger. But the only people who really put a glass ceiling on the possible gains in strength a character can attain are the fanbase, not the writers. Yes, the writers do have an obligation to provide more detail for how strong characters can get, but it's not their job to bend over to the will of a fanbase who want their theories and hypothesis of just how strong characters can truly get under certain circumstances to be justified. Some people may have an issue with it and others don't. Some people what don't like the idea of basic training being applied to characters and them getting much stronger from it, and others don't mind because in the past it has been show that even basic training can yield great results from some characters in growing stronger.

Now is Super using this liberty a bit too much? Well, it's how much you're willing to suspend your disbelief. If you're will to accept the notion that characters can achieve varying levels of increased strength on their own through training, as we've been told can happen in the happen in the past, it shouldn't been now a real issue. But if you want more detail to how any given character gets "X" times stronger in training, whether by themselves, or by training with someone, then your criticism is warranted if the circumstance in the show isn't explained appropriately. But keep in mind, this is franchise that loves to play it loose and swift with how strong the characters are to make the narrative as entertaining as possible. I mean, it is a show about fighting. And one of the main themes in Dragon Ball is: "y training + x character = RNG times more powerful"

An illogical extreme? I'm just pointing out that if Super says that Roshi can get that strong, then he could have done it in the future timeline. If you think it's illogical, then that's super's fault for making such a ridiculous power boost, not mine or the fanbase.

He was able to mafuba Frost, who is far stronger than future 17 & 18. And let's not forget that he was exhausted from fighting universe 4 when he mafuba'd frost, and he still survived. Secret training Roshi would be able to mafuba both androids and live.

Like I said, when talking about the original manga I leave Super's events out of it and this is exactly why. He went from dying against Piccolo after trying it ONCE to whatever this mess is called.

All I'm saying is, according to Super, Roshi could have saved the future if he did his signature tenshinhan surpassing, secret training.

[Lord Beerus]

Okay, I'm going to blunt... I hate threads like this. Because it shows a distinct lack of critical thinking among the Dragon Ball fandom, as well the tendency to take everything that happens in Dragon Ball, and Super for some specific reasons, to unnecessarily and illogical extremes.

I've ranted about this in past, I so I'll re-post my stance on this:

There's no universal gradient that must be abided to when a character grows in power. Some people make small gains through training for a very long time and others make great gains from training for a much lesser amount of time. Some do it on their own with basic tools and others do it with the aid of others or unique enhancements. It's all really dependable on... well... what the plot demands. Some use gimmicks and get special treatment to take shortcuts in get stronger while other just do it the old fashioned way.

Now I understand people's issues. I'd love for more detail on certain characters get stronger. But the only people who really put a glass ceiling on the possible gains in strength a character can attain are the fanbase, not the writers. Yes, the writers do have an obligation to provide more detail for how strong characters can get, but it's not their job to bend over to the will of a fanbase who want their theories and hypothesis of just how strong characters can truly get under certain circumstances to be justified. Some people may have an issue with it and others don't. Some people what don't like the idea of basic training being applied to characters and them getting much stronger from it, and others don't mind because in the past it has been show that even basic training can yield great results from some characters in growing stronger.

Now is Super using this liberty a bit too much? Well, it's how much you're willing to suspend your disbelief. If you're will to accept the notion that characters can achieve varying levels of increased strength on their own through training, as we've been told can happen in the happen in the past, it shouldn't been now a real issue. But if you want more detail to how any given character gets "X" times stronger in training, whether by themselves, or by training with someone, then your criticism is warranted if the circumstance in the show isn't explained appropriately. But keep in mind, this is franchise that loves to play it loose and swift with how strong the characters are to make the narrative as entertaining as possible. I mean, it is a show about fighting. And one of the main themes in Dragon Ball is: "y training + x character = RNG times more powerful"

An illogical extreme? I'm just pointing out that if Super says that Roshi can get that strong, then he could have done it in the future timeline. If you think it's illogical, then that's super's fault for making such a ridiculous power boost, not mine or the fanbase.

But we're acting as if Roshi became hundred and/or thousands of times stronger when that's not the case at all. Roshi became strong, there's no doubt, but much stronger he became is never made explicit. Especially since Goku in his base form casually flattens Roshi like a like a pancake with a single Kamehameha. The best we can gather is that perhaps Roshi is stronger than Tien. But again that comparison won't really mean much since we have no indication as to how strong Tien is in Z after he trains with King Kai.

[The_Destroyer]

Okay, I'm going to blunt... I hate threads like this. Because it shows a distinct lack of critical thinking among the Dragon Ball fandom, as well the tendency to take everything that happens in Dragon Ball, and Super for some specific reasons, to unnecessarily and illogical extremes.

I've ranted about this in past, I so I'll re-post my stance on this:

An illogical extreme? I'm just pointing out that if Super says that Roshi can get that strong, then he could have done it in the future timeline. If you think it's illogical, then that's super's fault for making such a ridiculous power boost, not mine or the fanbase.

But we're acting as if Roshi became hundred and/or thousands of times stronger when that's not the case at all. Roshi became strong, there's no doubt, but much stronger he became is never made explicit. Especially since Goku in his base form casually flattens Roshi like a like a pancake with a single Kamehameha. The best we can gather is that perhaps Roshi is stronger than Tien. But again that comparison won't really mean much since we have no indication as to how strong Tien is in Z after he trains with King Kai.

But my post said that Roshi would defeat them with the mafuba, not through hand to hand combat.

[rereboy]

But we're acting as if Roshi became hundred and/or thousands of times stronger when that's not the case at all.

Roshi's stated level is 139. Even if he got 100000 times stronger he should be just around 13 million, which is a level that Namek arc Goku with Kaioken would defeat him. If he was just 100 times stronger, he would be 13900 and saiyan arc vegeta would crush him. So, no, Super literally has him at the very least be many, MANY thousands of times stronger. Even we want to ignore power level maths, the logic of how many times the other characters multiplied their power dictates that Roshi would have to multiply his power many, MANY times.

[Lord Beerus]

But my post said that Roshi would defeat them with the mafuba, not through hand to hand combat.

You do know that the stronger the opponent you use the Mafuba on, the more it drains your life force. So if Roshi, who very much below the Base Saiyans at this stage, were to try and use Mafuba on someone like the Future Android 17 or 18, he'd die instantly.

Roshi's stated level is 139. Even if he got 100000 times stronger he should be just around 13 million, which is a level that Namek arc Goku with Kaioken would defeat him. If he was just 100 times stronger, he would be 13900 and saiyan arc vegeta would crush him. So, no, Super literally has him at the very least be many, MANY thousands of times stronger. Even we want to ignore power level maths, the logic of how many times the other characters multiplied their power dictates that Roshi would have to multiply his power many, MANY times.

Where is is implied he got thousands or even hundreds of times stronger though? The best we see from Roshi in combat in the new material is defeating a bunch of Freeza's Army mooks, who mostly had battle powers in the very low thousands at best as they were the reserves, and even then he got gassed from that. And after that he got crushed by Base Goku (who didn't need to break a sweat) with a single Kamehameha while he was in his Buff Form and enhanced with magic. The only possible point of contention is from Roshi's very brief skirmish with Tien where he landed a punch on him and Tien then got back up like nothing happened. And even then that scenario means nothing because we have no indication of how strong Tien is after training with King Kai.

[rereboy]

Where is is implied he got thousands or even hundreds of times stronger though?

It's implied all the time. For example, after almost dying, a weak Roshi was able to push back Frost. Even if Frost was not stronger than Freeza was at Namek, Freeza at Namek had 50 million in power level at his 50% power, while Roshi would have to be 100000 times stronger just to have 13 million. Anything else besides Roshi being an ant that would be obliterated with a blink of Frost's eyes already shows that Roshi has to be MANY thousands of times stronger. Heck, just him being in that tournament alone implies that he has to be because no matter how many tricks he has it's beyond ridiculous to think that that would mean anything without being much stronger than at least second form Freeza in Namek. It's either that or there's really no consistency at all in regards to power in Super and both possibilities are bad.

[Lord Beerus]

Where is is implied he got thousands or even hundreds of times stronger though?

It's implied all the time. For example, after almost dying, a weak Roshi was able to push back Frost. Even if Frost was not stronger than Freeza was at Namek, Freeza at Namek had 50 million in power level at his 50% power, while Roshi would have to be 100000 times stronger just to have 13 million. Anything else besides Roshi being an ant that would be obliterated with a blink of Frost's eyes already shows that Roshi has to be MANY thousands of times stronger. Heck, just him being in that tournament alone implies that he has to be because no matter how many tricks he has it's beyond ridiculous to think that that would mean anything without being much stronger than at least second form Freeza in Namek. It's either that or there's really no consistency at all in regards to power in Super and both possibilities are bad.

Roshi couldn't do shit to Frost. He was throwing wild punches at him and didn't land a single hit on. Frost easily evaded that shit and just swatted him away like a fly. Frost even comments himself that trying to pull his punches and not kill his opponent (Roshi) was very difficult. Frost is waaaayyyy above Roshi.

[Meshack]

Guys, guys, guys. We don’t know what Kame-Sennin did to get stronger. It was never mentioned. He could have secretly been training in the Gravity Room like Gohan did (in the manga) or he was training with Tenshinhan. Tenshinhan was strong enough to hold back Cell in his SECOND FORM with the Shin Kikouhou. Ten could have probably helped him. Unless Toyotarou brings it up in the next chapter when recruiting Kame-Sennin, we probably will never know.

I wouldn’t say Dragon Ball made without logic but some stuff is meant to be inconsistent such as the near death power ups the Saiyans have. The power ups, at least what I get from it, help you reach the power of their opponent. Not saying Gokuh during the Freeza Arc could have gotten a power up from fighting Beerus and is on the same level but the jump of power from fighting Beerus would be more than Gokuh fighting Cell and getting a near death power up.

Kame-Sennin is much, much weaker than Frost. He didn’t do anyting significant but use the Mafuuba.

We don’t know if Kame-Sennin is alive in the future. For all we know, he died when the Androids first attacked. Gohan and Trunks were the last warriors on the earth. I doubt Kame-Sennin is still around

[Dbzfan94]

We don’t know if Kame-Sennin is alive in the future. For all we know, he died when the Androids first attacked. Gohan and Trunks were the last warriors on the earth. I doubt Kame-Sennin is still around

They showed Master Roshi in the Trunks special living in a submarine with Oolong and Puar