The original Super Saiyan revealed!

[Kataphrut]

I feel like S-Cells would be more jarring if Blutz Waves weren't already a things. Although it feels like the time for such an explanation would have been back in the Namek/Android saga when the sci-fi stuff was at it's peak. I could easily see Cell busting out the term as part of a power monologue.

Modern Dragon Ball had for the most part returned to the fantasy and mysticism genre, so it's weird to see this science fiction explanation come up now, especially alongside the otherwise highly fantastical Super Saiyan God origin. It's not really a bad thing, and isn't going to make much difference in the long-term. The timing of it is just weird. I could easily see Toriyama either coming up with the idea on the fly, or it being one of those authorial explanations he'd taken for granted in his mind, but never actually spoken about publicly before. Again, Cell is all about the biology of Saiyan strength, and it went without saying that genetics are the main reason Goten and Trunks are the way they are. You can also extend that logic to the peaceful Universe 6 Saiyans as well, although it does raise the question as to why Caulifla of all people would be the most proficient of the three at becoming a Super Saiyan.

[Polyphase Avatron]

How do you think the S-Cells looks like under a microscope ?

What can we add to this representation for make an S-Cells ?

Just add some spiky yellow hair

[Meshack]

So then how did Vegeta achieve SSJ? I may be getting confused by the dub, but are 'pure' and righteous the same thing?

Vegeta achieved Super Saiyan because of self-loathing which is hatred or anger at oneself. Vegeta had the high battle power and he was on earth, which is a good environment. Though he wasn’t gentle, he was still able to become Super Saiyan. To become Super Saiyan, you need enough S-cells. Being gentle, having a high battle power, and a gentle environment can give you more S-cells. Saiyans are born with S-cells, some more than others. If you need, let's say 8000 S-cells to become a Super Saiyan, Vegeta gets a lot of S-cells from being born of royalty (stronger than his father), trained as a child which results in high battle power, and he was on earth when he became a Super Saiyan which is a good enough. That was probably enough S-cells to allow Vegeta to become Super Saiyan. Though Vegeta was not gentle at the time, he could still transform.

Righteousness is being morally right or good. Pure means you have no guilt, sexual desires, or anything like that.

[Meshack]

I feel like S-Cells would be more jarring if Blutz Waves weren't already a things. Although it feels like the time for such an explanation would have been back in the Namek/Android saga when the sci-fi stuff was at it's peak. I could easily see Cell busting out the term as part of a power monologue.

Modern Dragon Ball had for the most part returned to the fantasy and mysticism genre, so it's weird to see this science fiction explanation come up now, especially alongside the otherwise highly fantastical Super Saiyan God origin. It's not really a bad thing, and isn't going to make much difference in the long-term. The timing of it is just weird. I could easily see Toriyama either coming up with the idea on the fly, or it being one of those authorial explanations he'd taken for granted in his mind, but never actually spoken about publicly before. Again, Cell is all about the biology of Saiyan strength, and it went without saying that genetics are the main reason Goten and Trunks are the way they are. You can also extend that logic to the peaceful Universe 6 Saiyans as well, although it does raise the question as to why Caulifla of all people would be the most proficient of the three at becoming a Super Saiyan.

Caulifla can become Super Saiyan easily because of where she lives and her potential. Being gentle just helps you get more S-cells. You don’t need to be gentle to become Super Saiyan. Vegeta was “pure evil” but was able to become Super Saiyan. Gokuh-Black was evil but was able to become Super Saiyan.

I feel like people just didn’t understand what Toriyama was saying and believe that you need all of these factors to become a Super Saiyan which is not the case. If you have enough S-cells to become Super Saiyan, you can transform into it. Being gentle, training to get a high battle power, a gentle environment, these are all ways to get more S-cells.

[LightBing]

You don't get Super Saiyan by stepping on a lego and being mad about it. Goku and Vegeta got it because of extreme emotions of anger. Gohan we don't see him getting it but it was hard, Goku was telling him to imagine the Androids or Freeza killing everyone if I remember correctly.

It's not far-fetched at all. If they are already some of the most powerful beings in their Universe then reasons for strife are extremely reduced. Cabba got it because Vegeta was beating him up and threatening to kill everything he loved.

Gohan went Super Saiyan off-screen, so did Goten, Trunks and Future Trunks. And I'm not justifying their transformations, mind you. But at least they transformed as children. Goten transformed without having any idea what a Super Saiyan was. Caulifla and Kale have no excuse. This new information doesn't justify their transformations.

What's your argument? That any level of anger is enough to trigger Super Saiyan or that Caulifla and Kale must have had an extreme event like Goku and Vegeta during their life to trigger it?

If it's the first, then it goes against all the know triggers for Super Saiyan seen. Goku we all know. Vegeta only got it due to the rage of his own limits. Gohan we don't see it but we see him fail trying to imagine Goku being killed, a suggestion from Goku who told him it wouldn't be easy. Cabba I said it before.

I mean we literally see Cabba making Caulifla angry to try and make her SSJ. He failed and that's why we have the tingly backs.

If it's the second, I already said how unlikely that is if they already are top dogs in their Universe. If such an event happened with them as children they might not have enough power to even transform. Like with Gohan when he didn't transform against Raditz or Freeza.

[TKA]

So then how did Vegeta achieve SSJ? I may be getting confused by the dub, but are 'pure' and righteous the same thing?

Vegeta achieved Super Saiyan because of self-loathing which is hatred or anger at oneself. Vegeta had the high battle power and he was on earth, which is a good environment. Though he wasn’t gentle, he was still able to become Super Saiyan. To become Super Saiyan, you need enough S-cells. Being gentle, having a high battle power, and a gentle environment can give you more S-cells. Saiyans are born with S-cells, some more than others. If you need, let's say 8000 S-cells to become a Super Saiyan, Vegeta gets a lot of S-cells from being born of royalty (stronger than his father), trained as a child which results in high battle power, and he was on earth when he became a Super Saiyan which is a good enough. That was probably enough S-cells to allow Vegeta to become Super Saiyan. Though Vegeta was not gentle at the time, he could still transform.

Righteousness is being morally right or good. Pure means you have no guilt, sexual desires, or anything like that.

I think explaining it this way is best:

You can train to be a sprinter despite no sprinters being in your family. You can become a really good sprinter. However, if Usain Bolt had a kid who trained equally as hard as you, you'd never be able to beat that kid.

It's pretty much the same. You can build up S-cells by not being a dick, but Vegeta's genes apparently give him and Trunks a naturally high amount of S-Cells. So even if Vegeta was still a dick in the Android Arc, he naturally had enough S-Cells to transform.

[Esfír Dedragón]

This is like the Midi-chlorian theory of Dragon Ball.

You're continuing to disappoint me more and more, Toriyama.

You're probably just conditioned to hate midichlorians.

They're an actual good plot point that explains a lot of inconsistencies with the original trilogy. Just like S-cells explain things left unexplained in this franchise.

Actually, I am indifferent on the issue of using midi-chlorians to explain the force. I've never been a Star Wars fan and it wasn't until recently that I finally saw the Original Trilogy. I grew up watching the Prequel Trilogy without sufficient knowledge of the previous movies made. Imagine my surprise when I found out people actually hated the Phantom Menace!

If anything, I have heard from both fans and critics that George Lucas has his own deep issues when trying to make a coherent story for his own creation. Some have called him greedy, hypocritical and a sell-out when he tries to "improve" Star Wars. That's not a good thing when you're fans tend to be the most logical rather than the creator(s).

Now that we know how Toriyama thinks about how Dragon Ball works, or lack thereof, I was always hopeful that he would never make similar mistakes that George Lucas would.

Given the number of retcons and plotholes we have thanks to Super, the idea of "S-Cells", rather than being a good addition to the series, makes the Super Saiyan transformation reek of George Lucas/Star Wars pretentiousness. It's all in bad taste, unfortunately.

[TKA]

Now that we know how Toriyama thinks about how Dragon Ball works, or lack thereof, I was always hopeful that he would never make similar mistakes that George Lucas would.

Given the number of retcons and plotholes we have thanks to Super, the idea of "S-Cells", rather than being a good addition to the series, makes the Super Saiyan transformation reek of George Lucas/Star Wars pretentiousness. It's all in bad taste, unfortunately.

None of that is true. See my other posts in this thread. Or any of the other discussion, really. I also recommend reading the thing I spoiler tagged (due to it not being strictly Dragonball).

[spoiler]

Actually, I am indifferent on the issue of using midi-chlorians to explain the force. I've never been a Star Wars fan and it wasn't until recently that I finally saw the Original Trilogy. I grew up watching the Prequel Trilogy without sufficient knowledge of the previous movies made. Imagine my surprise when I found out people actually hated the Phantom Menace!

If anything, I have heard from both fans and critics that George Lucas has his own deep issues when trying to make a coherent story for his own creation. Some have called him greedy, hypocritical and a sell-out when he tries to "improve" Star Wars. That's not a good thing when you're fans tend to be the most logical rather than the creator(s).

---------------------------------------------

Star Wars Nerd Mode on:

Let me reply to you in list form rather than multiple quotes:

1. Midichlorians explains why in Episode 6 Luke said "the force is strong in my family." It's genetic. Midichlorians are genetic.

2. Midichlorians have a real-life analogue in Mitochondria. The difference is all animals have mitochondria, but not all people in Star Wars have enough midichlorians to be able to use the force. This explains why the Jedi were a dying breed and a "dead religion" in Episodes 4-6. If anyone could learn to use the force, why on Earth would ANYONE not be doing it?

3. People are only mad at it [midichlorians] because it ruins their escapism. They also neglect that the midichlorian revelation was part of the narrative of the Jedi failing. They literally scan a child's potential and then determine if that person is worth anything from that midichlorian count. It's EXACTLY what the Saiyans do in Dragonball, where they scan a baby's power and then decide if that baby is worth keeping or shipping out. The Jedi stagnated and died because they became so disconnected from the Force, relying on numbers, clones and other technologies. THAT'S the point of midichlorians.

4. "Fans" and "critics" don't know shit. This is the same group of people that think TFA and Rogue One are good and Episode 3 is merely "The best of the prequels" instead of "The best Star Wars movie, period."

Star Wars Nerd Mode off permanently.

------------------------------------[/spoiler]

[KBABZ]

I'll be perfectly honest, I never took any stock in the whole "you need to be pure-hearted" thing as a Super Saiyan requirement.

[Meshack]

I'll be perfectly honest, I never took any stock in the whole "you need to be pure-hearted" thing as a Super Saiyan requirement.

You don’t need to be pure to be a Super Saiyan.

[sangofe]

It'd be cool to build a bit more story and happenings around this information and have an ova made.

[KBABZ]

I'll be perfectly honest, I never took any stock in the whole "you need to be pure-hearted" thing as a Super Saiyan requirement.

You don’t need to be pure to be a Super Saiyan.

That's what I figured, it is of course part of the "story of the legendary Super Saiyan", but to me that's as far as it goes. I wouldn't call Bardock pure-hearted for example due to the somewhat grey nature of his character, at least as portrayed in the original OVA.

Now of course the question is whether you can synthesize S-Cells or otherwise GIVE someone the ability to turn Super Saiyan. Could you imagine if Videl were able to go Super Saiyan after Bulma gives her an S-Cell transfusion?

[Bruma rabu]

Can you gain s-cells or are you born with a set limit?

[KBABZ]

Can you gain s-cells or are you born with a set limit?

No idea, but to avoid them being midi-chlorians you'd hope you can gain some!

[nato25]

The interview states you can increase them.

The thing I love most about this interview is how he mentions Goku took ages to learn how to fly because no one else could really do it, basically he had no examples.

Everyone's complaining about ssj being everywhere now, but think how long Goku and Vegeta took too acquire it, both in age and series run. Everyone else has subsequently seen ssj before making it much easier for them to attain. Trunks from Future Gohan, the kids (I guess Vegeta showed Trunks at some point and Goten from Trunks or Gohan) and of course all the new Universe 6 saiyans who basically took ssj class from Vegeta and then Cabba.

[Meshack]

Can you gain s-cells or are you born with a set limit?

Increasing your S-Cells is what Toriyama was talking about.

[Meshack]

I just don’t get how people are misinterpreting what Toriyama said already. The interview literally just came out.

[Bruma rabu]

Can you gain s-cells or are you born with a set limit?

Increasing your S-Cells is what Toriyama was talking about.

I only ask because people seem to be comparing it to midicholrians. It seemed to me that he was talking more about a saiyan environment, morality, and genetics affects how many s cells he has not so much they can increase it.

[Meshack]

Can you gain s-cells or are you born with a set limit?

Increasing your S-Cells is what Toriyama was talking about.

I only ask because people seem to be comparing it to midicholrians. It seemed to me that he was talking more about a saiyan environment, morality, and genetics affects how many s cells he has not so much they can increase it.

He was specifically asked how to increase your S-Cells.

“↓ And how does one increase S-Cells to become Super Saiyan?

Having a gentle spirit is the best way to greatly increase one’s S-Cells, but most Saiyans have trouble with this, which I think is why no Super Saiyans appeared for such a long time that they became the stuff of legend. However, one can’t reach the quantity necessary for becoming a Super Saiyan simply by having a gentle spirit, so a certain amount of battle power is indeed necessary. Looked at in this light, it’s easy to see why becoming a Super Saiyan came easy for Goku.”

I don’t know what Mitochloridrias are but I know it’s from Star Wars and I heard they are set it in stone when you are born. Toriyama said you can increase S-Cells by being gentle, high battle power, environment. The S-Cells aren’t set in stone. Those who are saying they’re the same are the problem among this community and will just continue to spread misinformation by making the comparison.

[KBABZ]

I don’t know what Mitochloridrias are but I know it’s from Star Wars and I heard they are set it in stone when you are born. Toriyama said you can increase S-Cells by being gentle, high battle power, environment. The S-Cells aren’t set in stone. Those who are saying they’re the same are the problem among this community and will just continue to spread misinformation by making the comparison.

Midichlorians are a concept introduced in Episode I: The Phantom Menace in 1999. They're life forms that live in the blood of nearly every organism, and allow one to speak to the Force and do all the cool Jedi/Sith stuff. In particular, people with a high midichlorian count are more powerful, so in that way they're comparable to Power Level culture in that someone with a huge count will be significant. In the film, Anakin has a blood sample taken and his midichlorian count is stated to be much higher than even Yoda's, making him a Big Deal. They got a HUGE backlash from fans as it basically trivialized the concept of the Force, that Darth Vader and Luke and Palpatine are so powerful not through talent but by genetics and science. The hate was so profound that they were never mentioned ever again in any Star Wars story after that point.

What makes S-Cells different from midichlorians is that one can increase the amount of S-Cells they have, while in Star Wars you cannot increase your midichlorian count. In that way, S-Cells are basically just an explainer for "why" Super Saiyans exist in Saiyan biology, compared to midichlorians which actually restrict and compromise the mechanics of the story and characters.