Does anyone else like to see Android 21 become canon?

[ricky84]

I think she (especially in her good form) is one of the best modern-era DB characters. She has a lot of chemistry with the Z-crew based on her story route in DBFZ and would have been a great addition to the U7 team in the ToP (since she is SSB+ level in raw power and has tons of special abilites on top of that).

Plus, she is the only DB main antagonist with a truly sympathetic backstory (implied to have been forced into becoming an Android against her by her husband Dr.Gero/A20, like he did to Lapis/A17 & Lazuli/A18).

Any thoughts?

[CTAkuma]

I don't see her becoming canon before more popular things like SS4 or Coola, but it'd be a change of pace having a female villain. I'd scrap the obligatory "Villain becomes good" plot though like it was in FighterZ

[KBABZ]

I made a thread a while back basically saying the same thing! It'd need some adjustments though; the dumb clone thing would definitely need to be removed.

[ricky84]

I don't see her becoming canon before more popular things like SS4 or Coola, but it'd be a change of pace having a female villain. I'd scrap the obligatory "Villain becomes good" plot though like it was in FighterZ

Why would you? Her good/true persona is a much more interesting character than her evil version.

[KBABZ]

I don't see her becoming canon before more popular things like SS4 or Coola, but it'd be a change of pace having a female villain. I'd scrap the obligatory "Villain becomes good" plot though like it was in FighterZ

Why would you? Her good/true persona is a much more interesting character than her evil version.

It's more complicated than that though; similar to Fat Buu (and Piccolo/Kami, for that matter), the evil version literally splits off to be its own character while the good side also becomes its own character. I thought it was really cool how we initially think 21 is insanely evil, but things turn out to be more complicated than that and we get to see this character become a part of the group and learn how to use her power and abilities to pitch in and save the day.

[ricky84]

Just imagine if A21 trained under Whis for only a year. She would be one-shotting Beerus and Jiren like nothing lmao.

[Doctor.]

I would have said so if you asked when FighterZ came out, but many months after the fact I've forgotten all about her story already. She honestly just seems like fetishistic waifubait.

[KBABZ]

She honestly just seems like fetishistic waifubait.

The evil version for sure, but I think there's room for depth in her good half.

[Doctor.]

She honestly just seems like fetishistic waifubait.

The evil version for sure, but I think there's room for depth in her good half.

There are interesting ideas to work with, but they don't actually develop them beyond throwing tidbits out there during dialogue. As it stands, she's a meek, docile, kind waifu-like character, and I'm not really sure that's not intentionally a marketing ploy considering her other half.

[ekrolo2]

It kind of doesn't make sense for her to appear now, the Android arc finished a long time ago. The point where someone like her appearing makes the most sense. Having her show up now is just... why? It's the same feeling I have with Toriyama revealing 16s backstory & inspiration, why?! It's not in the story, it doesn't inform the Android arc in any meaningful way. Some people have said Toriyama should've said Goku killed Gero's son during his final attack on the RRA and while that sounds good in theory, it leads into the same problem as I mentioned above with Android 21: that's not something you should include decades after the story has already concluded!

[Doctor.]

It kind of doesn't make sense for her to appear now, the Android arc finished a long time ago. The point where someone like her appearing makes the most sense. Having her show up now is just... why? It's the same feeling I have with Toriyama revealing 16s backstory & inspiration, why?! It's not in the story, it doesn't inform the Android arc in any meaningful way. Some people have said Toriyama should've said Goku killed Gero's son during his final attack on the RRA and while that sounds good in theory, it leads into the same problem as I mentioned above with Android 21: that's not something you should include decades after the story has already concluded!

I don't know how you could realistically include Android 21 in the original Cell arc, though.

Maybe if Cell comes back, you could push Android 21 in there. Another 3-faction cat-and-mouse arc like Namek would be interesting.

[Lord Beerus]

I think it's too late to go back into the Artificial Human/Android/Cyborg well. Something like Android 21 should have been included in the original story. Not retroactively added decades after the Artificial Human/Android arc ended. It just doesn't feel like an organic addition to the story. I think the narrative of Android 21 serves it purposes better as a "what-if" story.

But I certainly think the assets used to compose her story and character In FighterZ (i.e. a tragic female villain with a literal split personality and ties to the Red Ribbon Army) could certainly be retooled and refashion into a more layered and intricate story arc in the near future.

[KBABZ]

It kind of doesn't make sense for her to appear now, the Android arc finished a long time ago. The point where someone like her appearing makes the most sense. Having her show up now is just... why? It's the same feeling I have with Toriyama revealing 16s backstory & inspiration, why?! It's not in the story, it doesn't inform the Android arc in any meaningful way. Some people have said Toriyama should've said Goku killed Gero's son during his final attack on the RRA and while that sounds good in theory, it leads into the same problem as I mentioned above with Android 21: that's not something you should include decades after the story has already concluded!

I think it's too late to go back into the Artificial Human/Android/Cyborg well. Something like Android 21 should have been included in the original story. Not retroactively added decades after the Artificial Human/Android arc ended. It just doesn't feel like an organic addition to the story. I think the narrative of Android 21 serves it purposes better as a "what-if" story.

But I certainly think the assets used to compose her story and character In FighterZ (i.e. a tragic female villain with a literal split personality and ties to the Red Ribbon Army) could certainly be retooled and refashion into a more layered and intricate story arc in the near future.

But at the same time the Cell arc is a direct result of the Red Ribbon Army arc, which was itself a loooooong time before that, particularly when you take into account the lack of internet when Dragon Ball was first airing/being published for people to recall that arc from the less popular days of the franchise. Aside from the Tankobon I don't think there were any reruns of Dragon Ball in Japan for people to go back on.

There are interesting ideas to work with, but they don't actually develop them beyond throwing tidbits out there during dialogue. As it stands, she's a meek, docile, kind waifu-like character, and I'm not really sure that's not intentionally a marketing ploy considering her other half.

I agree that she doesn't have a lot of depth, but it's a fighting game so the fact that an original character is able to be so interesting is pretty impressive to me. I'm not a fan of her Majin outfit as it's a bit too sexualized to be "everyday" clothing and it lends credence to the idea that her waifu characteristics are mainly to bank on the otaku audience, but at the same time she's the rare example of a character who's incredibly intelligent like Bulma but can also fight like a Saiyan AND be a woman at the same time! (something in short supply in Dragon Ball)

[ekrolo2]

It kind of doesn't make sense for her to appear now, the Android arc finished a long time ago. The point where someone like her appearing makes the most sense. Having her show up now is just... why? It's the same feeling I have with Toriyama revealing 16s backstory & inspiration, why?! It's not in the story, it doesn't inform the Android arc in any meaningful way. Some people have said Toriyama should've said Goku killed Gero's son during his final attack on the RRA and while that sounds good in theory, it leads into the same problem as I mentioned above with Android 21: that's not something you should include decades after the story has already concluded!

I don't know how you could realistically include Android 21 in the original Cell arc, though.

Maybe if Cell comes back, you could push Android 21 in there. Another 3-faction cat-and-mouse arc like Namek would be interesting.

I mean, she's obviously Gero's wife and she clearly loved her son so it wouldn't be that hard to write a villainous married couple who become cyborgs to get revenge on their son's murderer, it basically writes itself. If anything, all this added stuff really does show us that Doctor Gero absolutely should've been the antagonist of the Android arc.

[theherodjl]

I mean, she's obviously Gero's wife and she clearly loved her son so it wouldn't be that hard to write a villainous married couple who become cyborgs to get revenge on their son's murderer, it basically writes itself. If anything, all this added stuff really does show us that Doctor Gero absolutely should've been the antagonist of the Android arc.

He was, just not in the way that some fans would of liked. A better way to say it would be that Gero should've been more presently involved with events than setting up the arc by merely creating it's villains, but Gero doesn't really offer much as a villain besides him being just a mad-scientist who wants revenge on Goku. If Gero did want to conquer everything like he intended then he should've given himself the best Android body out of them all instead of signing his own death warrant by crafting Androids that hated him or had no use for his genius.

[ekrolo2]

I mean, she's obviously Gero's wife and she clearly loved her son so it wouldn't be that hard to write a villainous married couple who become cyborgs to get revenge on their son's murderer, it basically writes itself. If anything, all this added stuff really does show us that Doctor Gero absolutely should've been the antagonist of the Android arc.

He was, just not in the way that some fans would of liked. A better way to say it would be that Gero should've been more presently involved with events than setting up the arc by merely creating it's villains, but Gero doesn't really offer much as a villain besides him being just a mad-scientist who wants revenge on Goku. If Gero did want to conquer everything like he intended then he should've given himself the best Android body out of them all instead of signing his own death warrant by crafting Androids that hated him or had no use for his genius.

I'd say he offers more than the rest of the antagonists but together. 17 and 18 are just delinquents, 16 has no other function but to kill Goku because he's programmed to while Cell wants perfection than to test himself out. At least Gero wanting revenge based on what happens in the RRA arc would come from something personally rooted to the character and in the actual events of the RRA arc. Because as a sequel to the RRA story-line, the Android arc barely feels like one at all to the point the connection between them is nebulous at best.

[theherodjl]

I'd say he offers more than the rest of the antagonists but together. 17 and 18 are just delinquents, 16 has no other function but to kill Goku because he's programmed to while Cell wants perfection than to test himself out. At least Gero wanting revenge based on what happens in the RRA arc would come from something personally rooted to the character and in the actual events of the RRA arc. Because as a sequel to the RRA story-line, the Android arc barely feels like one at all to the point the connection between them is nebulous at best.

Gero does have the best reason out of the whole arc to be the villain, yes. However, his execution of revenge against Goku was totally cocked up. For someone who had something really personal in the matter, Gero did not put in nearly enough effort to kill Goku himself. Gero concluded that Goku's strength & abilities after Namek ere not important enough to examine, he built multiple models designed for the purpose of killing Goku instead of by his own hand, and he gave all those other models greater power(except for 19) than his own Android body. Gero is supposed to be a genius, but his lust for vengeance utterly killed his common sense, and he ended up paying the price for it before he would ever be able to see Goku die.

[ekrolo2]

I'd say he offers more than the rest of the antagonists but together. 17 and 18 are just delinquents, 16 has no other function but to kill Goku because he's programmed to while Cell wants perfection than to test himself out. At least Gero wanting revenge based on what happens in the RRA arc would come from something personally rooted to the character and in the actual events of the RRA arc. Because as a sequel to the RRA story-line, the Android arc barely feels like one at all to the point the connection between them is nebulous at best.

Gero does have the best reason out of the whole arc to be the villain, yes. However, his execution of revenge against Goku was totally cocked up. For someone who had something really personal in the matter, Gero did not put in nearly enough effort to kill Goku himself. Gero concluded that Goku's strength & abilities after Namek ere not important enough to examine, he built multiple models designed for the purpose of killing Goku instead of by his own hand, and he gave all those other models greater power(except for 19) than his own Android body. Gero is supposed to be a genius, but his lust for vengeance utterly killed his common sense, and he ended up paying the price for it before he would ever be able to see Goku die.

Which sounds fine if that was the story trying to say something but it's not. Gero doesn't come undone in any satisfying or impactfull way: he gets quickly sidelined because an old editor of Toriyama's called Gero some old fart and thought he sucked as a villain so Toriyama hastily went about soft rebooting the story, twice.

Even if you're not aware of this fact, Gero's premature destruction do NOT feel organic at all, it's all undercooked with Toriayama and now video games trying to retroactively make him a character when it is far too little too late.

[theherodjl]

Which sounds fine if that was the story trying to say something but it's not. Gero doesn't come undone in any satisfying or impactfull way: he gets quickly sidelined because an old editor of Toriyama's called Gero some old fart and thought he sucked as a villain so Toriyama hastily went about soft rebooting the story, twice.

Even if you're not aware of this fact, Gero's premature destruction do NOT feel organic at all, it's all undercooked with Toriayama and now video games trying to retroactively make him a character when it is far too little too late.

It actually is fine because Toriyama was playing with fire when he decided to delve into something as complex as time travel work with his story, and he even admitted himself that the story ended up a little convoluted because of that so his editor actually made a good call on changing the arc's intended events. Gero was rather shoehorned into relevance as quickly as he was killed off, why a previously-unseen, lone scientist on Earth can just whip up a batch of fighters that are all stronger than two SSJs who had trained for 3 years in preparation for them is beyond me. Goku initially asks if the future threat are aliens which would've been a better idea than "human mad-scientist is able to construct multiple Androids double the strength of the universe's previously-strongest fighter all because we need a new villain from Earth who can defeat Goku!"

[Green_Goblin]

NOOOOOOOO!