Inconstancy with Dragon Ball Super (Anime)

[ekrolo2]

Every instance in the last ToP chunk where characters are shitting out more and more ki for big, bombastic attacks and/or transformations which they really shouldn't have.

Remember when Goku firing off a no holds barred Kamehameha leaves him seriously winded in the Cell Games? Yeah, whys that not happening to basically everyone in the ToP?

This is a contradiction of the show itself, because remember when Goku and Vegeta couldn't turn SSJ Blue because they didn't have enough energy to do so. Why isn't this happening here?

Yeah, the ToP basically starts running on bad Shonen Jump cliches where people get fired up and this magically fixes the fact they should be tired beyond belief. Which is a shame because Dragon Ball really didn't do stuff like that, if anything, it purposefully made characters fail whenever they tried to overpower someone or compensate by feeling strongly about something.

[PFM18]

- We had Beerus stating he used 10% of his power to withstand SSJ2 Raging Vegeta's assault in Episode 8. A statement that would be completely ignored for the rest of the series as Beerus' became moving goal post of power in every arc following Battle Of Gods.

It was explained that Beerus had lied about using 100% of his power so extrapolating from that, a logical assumption is that he was also lying about the 10%.(for whatever reason)

SSJ Future Trunks managing to hold his own and even fight back against SSJ Rose Goku Black and Zamasu in Episode 57. Two character who were as strong as SSJB Goku and Vegeta. SSJ Future Trunks wouldn't perform anywhere near as good as he did in Episode 57 until he got his new form in Episode 61.

Yeah Future Trunks was all over the place. Like I said, I think the way his more was handled was the only egregious power scaling inconsistency in the series.

SSJB Goku managing to break through Merged Zamasu's Holy Wrath Episode 66 and damage half his face. That's despite the fact that SSJB Vegeta and SSJ Ikari Future Trunks, while fighting together, where only able to at best cancel out the same attack and not push it back or break through it like Goku did in the beam struggle.

I hate that scene because it doesn't make much sense, but it was explained why this was the case. Goku had exerted so much power he had broken both is arms from the KHH.(Which has never happened before.) The idea I imagine was that he exerted so much power beyond his body's limits that he had broken both his arms. Again, doesn't make much sense, but there is something in there to explain the matter. I hate the scene, and I forgot about it when I originally responded, but still.

- Piccolo's Chōbakuretsumaha not doing any damage to Base Goku in Episode 90, despite the fact that two episodes prior to that Piccolo was able to defeat and choke out SSJ2 Gohan with ease. And on top of that, in Episode 75, we see that Goku and Gohan, as Super Saiyans, are equal in strength

That scene makes perfect sense. Goku's Base at this point in the series is obscenely powerful. It makes anything we saw in Z look like a joke.

I have already discussed this with you, but I don't think 75 actually portrays Gohan and Goku as equals so I see this as a false equivalency to say that this is an inconsistency because Piccolo lost to SSJ2 Gohan but couldn't do anything to Base Goku. If anything, I think this reinforces the fact that Goku was suppressed in episode 75. He admitted to holding back when Gohan asked about it, and we are given no real indication to believe that this had changed considering that the fight had played out the same way in both bouts, the Base vs Base and then SSJ vs SSJ. Goku admitted he was suppressed in Base, they fight evenly, then he goes SSJ and then fight evenly again. So, if Goku was suppressed in the first but then not suppressed in the 2nd, why wouldn't he gain an advantage? Because he was suppressed in both instances. At this point Goku is on another level from Gohan.

- Pretty much any fight involving Ribrianne is a mess of power scaling. She gets hit the worst in the show in the strength department because it's literally a case of Depending on the Writer. In Episode 102 she fights evenly with SSJ Vegeta and then in Episode 103 she holds her own against #17. Then in Episode 109, Goku uses SSJB to take down a love fueld/powered up version of her. Fast forward to Episode 111 and Base Vegeta is on verge of jobbing her out. And in her final episode, Episode 117, she becomes a loved up/powered up giant monster and restrains #18, only for #18 to effortly defeat her with one punch. It's a mess.

Yeah, she was definitely all over the place. But believe it or not, I think that was done on purpose. The manga portrays it much better than the anime did, but I think her power was supposed to fluctuate. In the manga they explain that depending on how she perceives her own beauty,(love in the anime) she is stronger/weaker accordingly. I don't really know, either way it is a bit weird.

In Episode 131, Jiren manages to regain some strength and even Gohan notes how "incredible" his ki is. #17 struggles to hold off Jiren's aura despite his limitless energy and we even see Freeza lose his golden form just hold off Jiren's power. Despite this, an extremely fatigued Base Goku and Final Form were able to fight evenly to some degree with Jiren and eliminate him.

17 had blown himself up. It is natural to assume he lost power from the fiasco. infinite energy/=/"can never lose power under any circumstances." That pretty much fills in any holes here. 17 just isn't SSB level in this instance and neither is anybody else.

Weakened Jiren~Final Form Freeza~Base Goku

Super Saiyan God. Specifically the first two sagas when we were led to initially believe the "Saiyan Beyond God" status, i.e. Goku & Vegeta becoming as strong as SSG in their base form. Then they retconned the hell out of that during U6 vs. U7 tournament, making base Goku & Vegeta as weak as they used to be in order to make SSJ forms still relevant. Then we find out Goku (& later Vegeta in the film!) could still turn SSG, effectively retconning the whole SSG-absorption ordeal.

We were never lead to believe Goku and Vegeta were as strong as SSG in their Base. There's exactly 0 statements that support this being the case. It was obvious that "Saiyan Beyond God" was in the RoF movie and Super retconned it. There was no such retcon during the run of Super, and that's why the retellings are there. They change things from the movie with the rest of the series in mind. The "SSG absorption ordeal" as we see it unfold, resulted in SSJ Goku~SSG Goku in power. As Beerus explained Goku adapted to that level of power in his SSJ state, and this should say nothing of the mechanics of how his transformations work and he shouldn't be restricted from using SSG in the future. We see this confirmed when Vegeta gets to train with Whis first, and he matches Goku's power that he gained from the ritual. Showing that there's nothing else to it and it is literally just a power increase with no implications of their transformations functioning differently and it being impossible to use SSG.

2. Kale. Walks through SSB Kamehameha and ragdolls Blueku. Then her SSJ2 form (stated to be more powerful than her Berserk form by Tien, who admittedly is not the most reliable but still part of the narrative) only matches SSG Goku. This could be rectified if we are to believe Goku grew significantly stronger after his battle with Jiren, but it's still hard to swallow that post-Jiren SSG Goku > pre-Jiren SSB Goku, an entire transformation boost gap cleared in like less than 5 minutes' worth of in-universe time.

Goku was suppressed against Kale in the first instance. We know that because:

1. Goku powers up from SSJ2->SSB and says "I'll release a little more power"
2. After Kale ragdolls him, Goku has no battle damage from the fight.
3. Jiren one shots her, and Goku isn't surprised or impressed in any way, he even challenges Jiren right after. (Implying he could have done the same)

3. The SSJ3 Gotenks bullshit. Since it's filler, we can forget about this ever happening if we overlook a couple of inconsistencies in the dialogue by doing so.

....yeah it would have been an inconsistency if Base Goku and Vegeta weren't stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. Based on everything we know, Goku and Vegeta should be leaps and bounds above Gotenks in their Base at this point.

4. Trunks. Guy was just a walking bag full of asspulls.

Yeah I agree with that.

The Dragon Ball Super series has so many more inconsistencies in it than all of the other ones shown separately from the Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT serieses combined

This is just laughably inaccurate. GT on it's own is far more inconsistent in terms of power scaling than Super. It is literally impossible to make a coherent PL list/scale of GT because you have completely contradictory statements/feats coming in back to back episodes or even the same episode. And a lot of these come early in the series when it lays the foundation for the power scaling in the rest of the series.

- in Episode 127, after SSJB Evolution Vegeta blew himself up to cancel out Hakaishin Toppo's Hakai energy attack, it was noted that Vegeta had run out of energy at the end of the episode. Then at the beginning of the next episode Vegeta transforms into SSJB Evolution like nothing happened

Yeah that was pretty bad. But on the bright side it did serve to explain that Vegeta had retained the boost he had against Toppo. (Going by what Jiren said to Vegeta)

- In Episode 109, Goku managing to produce a giant Genki Dama, despite the fact that only 7 people contributed to it. And as we see in the Majin Boo, Goku needed to the energy of billion of people to get anywhere near the size or strength of the Genki Dama he needed to kill Kid Boo. And somehow, for the energy of 7 people, he mustered up a Genki Dama powerful enough that it would defeated Jiren, a character stronger a Hakaishin.

Yeah I agree. Plot convenience is the only explanation.

[Rakurai]

The SSJ3 Gotenks bullshit. Since it's filler, we can forget about this ever happening if we overlook a couple of inconsistencies in the dialogue by doing so.

It isn't filler. Goku mentions the events of Potaufeu in the Future Trunks arc.

Any saga that isn't written into the story by Toriyama is filler by my standards.

That's why I said if we can overlook a couple of inconsistencies in the dialogue by doing so. Fillers can still be referenced, however they do not affect the main story whatsoever.

We were never lead to believe Goku and Vegeta were as strong as SSG in their Base. There's exactly 0 statements that support this being the case. It was obvious that "Saiyan Beyond God" was in the RoF movie and Super retconned it. There was no such retcon during the run of Super, and that's why the retellings are there. They change things from the movie with the rest of the series in mind. The "SSG absorption ordeal" as we see it unfold, resulted in SSJ Goku~SSG Goku in power. As Beerus explained Goku adapted to that level of power in his SSJ state, and this should say nothing of the mechanics of how his transformations work and he shouldn't be restricted from using SSG in the future. We see this confirmed when Vegeta gets to train with Whis first, and he matches Goku's power that he gained from the ritual. Showing that there's nothing else to it and it is literally just a power increase with no implications of their transformations functioning differently and it being impossible to use SSG.

Goku was suppressed against Kale in the first instance. We know that because:

1. Goku powers up from SSJ2->SSB and says "I'll release a little more power"
2. After Kale ragdolls him, Goku has no battle damage from the fight.
3. Jiren one shots her, and Goku isn't surprised or impressed in any way, he even challenges Jiren right after. (Implying he could have done the same)

....yeah it would have been an inconsistency if Base Goku and Vegeta weren't stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. Based on everything we know, Goku and Vegeta should be leaps and bounds above Gotenks in their Base at this point.

You're either trolling or deliberately misconstruing the narrative to fit your own explanation.

Beerus, Ep. 13: "It appears your SSG powers did not disappear due to some time limit. Rather, the power completely fused within your very being. The red god's brilliance is still burning in you like a flame."

As if the entire dialogue wasn't enough to prove he fused SSG's powers into his own. And we're supposed to assume that he still had SSG well up to almost 100 episodes into the series when he finally does use the transformation? For a strategy used in the manga but unlike with Vegeta's trick it was totally useless in that same episode? Lmao no.

Now, if you want a clear example of SSG not being restricted, read Ch. 4 of the manga. Leaves out that SSG absorption banter and has SSG Goku pushing back Beerus until he tires out.

1. In Japanese, the underlying meaning of "releasing a little more power" can mean to actually release a lot more as well. Non-native speakers can misunderstand the intent based on the context of the situation.

https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/chotto/

Point # 3: "In Japanese, instead of using ちょっと like this to be sarcastic, we use it to be humble, polite, or try to make something seem like less of a big deal by diminishing what would be a stronger expression otherwise. By adding ちょっと, you're making your statement vague. And in Japanese, vagueness is always synonymous with politeness."

Couple the fact that Goku's body language and expression were dead serious. The narrative clearly tells you he's going at it with force enough to warrant him transforming to SSB. Not SSJ3 or SSG (which turns out he did have this entire time!). SSB of all fucking transformations.

2. Goku can't get out from her grip. For someone who can apparently reduce his strength to less than Krillin in no time, it seems baffling to me why he would struggle to get out of her grip and instead get cast aside like a broken toy.

3. No it means Goku is more excited to fight someone even stronger. Otherwise by your logic, Goku not batting an eye to Jiren's strength means he could actually take on Jiren instead of getting ragdolled the same way.

F. Trunks in 10 years' worth of time got far, far stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks when in 7 years Goku, who was constantly training was still below that? In addition to Episode 75 also having Goku & Gohan fighting equally, and not some false equivalency as you claim unless you go leaps and bounds beyond what the narrative claims to make such conclusions. In addition to Roshi making base Goku do more than just stand there and chump him like copy Vegeta did to SSJ3 Gotenks. Yeah no I'm not buying that and you'd have to be a straight-up DBS apologist to defend such crap.

This is just laughably inaccurate. GT on it's own is far more inconsistent in terms of power scaling than Super. It is literally impossible to make a coherent PL list/scale of GT because you have completely contradictory statements/feats coming in back to back episodes or even the same episode. And a lot of these come early in the series when it lays the foundation for the power scaling in the rest of the series.

The irony in this statement. Replace it with Super and you'd get just as valid of a claim.

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

This is just laughably inaccurate. GT on it's own is far more inconsistent in terms of power scaling than Super. It is literally impossible to make a coherent PL list/scale of GT because you have completely contradictory statements/feats coming in back to back episodes or even the same episode. And a lot of these come early in the series when it lays the foundation for the power scaling in the rest of the series.

The irony in this statement. Replace it with Super and you'd get just as valid of a claim.

Yeah, you´re not wrong. GT and Super have a lot more amounts of similar issues than you will ever hear anyone say.

[PFM18]

Beerus, Ep. 13: "It appears your SSG powers did not disappear due to some time limit. Rather, the power completely fused within your very being. The red god's brilliance is still burning in you like a flame."

As if the entire dialogue wasn't enough to prove he fused SSG's powers into his own. And we're supposed to assume that he still had SSG well up to almost 100 episodes into the series when he finally does use the transformation? For a strategy used in the manga but unlike with Vegeta's trick it was totally useless in that same episode? Lmao no.

I am not denying the existence of that dialogue. Beerus was impressed with Goku for being able to make the power his own just by experiencing it. But even by the dialogue you quoted, it is clear he had retained the same level of power as SSG, but he didn't suddenly invalidate SSG. If it wasn't already clear enough that this was strictly just an increase in power and absolutely nothing else, Vegeta confirms it. Vegeta goes to train with Whis for 6 months, and matches if not surpasses the power boost Goku got according to Goku itself. If this sequence in space with Beerus had actually changed the mechanics of the transformations and SSG was now gone as you claim, then now Vegeta should show you this isn't the case. Because if this were the case, then Vegeta and Goku's transformation mechanics would now be different, because Vegeta didn't "absorb" SSG and Goku did. Obviously, this isn't the case. That proves that SSG existing is not contradictory, and therefore, there's no retcon.

1. In Japanese, the underlying meaning of "releasing a little more power" can mean to actually release a lot more as well. Non-native speakers can misunderstand the intent based on the context of the situation.

https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/chotto/

Point # 3: "In Japanese, instead of using ちょっと like this to be sarcastic, we use it to be humble, polite, or try to make something seem like less of a big deal by diminishing what would be a stronger expression otherwise. By adding ちょっと, you're making your statement vague. And in Japanese, vagueness is always synonymous with politeness."

Alright well I guess it is more ambiguous than I thought. I'm not a native Japanese speaker my bad.

2. Goku can't get out from her grip. For someone who can apparently reduce his strength to less than Krillin in no time, it seems baffling to me why he would struggle to get out of her grip and instead get cast aside like a broken toy.

Even if we assume Goku was using his full-power, no matter which way you frame it, he could have broken free if he really wanted to. He could have just used Kaioken if he REALLY wanted to break free. So this doesn't really hold any water.

3. No it means Goku is more excited to fight someone even stronger. Otherwise by your logic, Goku not batting an eye to Jiren's strength means he could actually take on Jiren instead of getting ragdolled the same way.

So Goku is weaker than Kale, and yet he still wants to fight somebody stronger than her? What? Goku was not impressed with Jiren one shotting her, and he obviously didn't know what he was dealing with yet. He saw Jiren as a worthy challenger.

But the story is pretty much hinting at Goku being suppressed the entire time. It is abundantly clear to anyone who pays attention that Goku was suppressed and that this is not an inconsistency. If Goku walking up to Jiren without batting an eye or being impressed at all, the lack of battle damage, and the dialogue isn't enough evidence for you, there's a ton more that you can choose to ignore and whine about inconsistencies if you want too:

-At the end of episode 101, an episode after Kale walked through the KHH, Goku tells them: "both of you get stronger and THEN we will have our REAL fight." Which obviously indicates that Goku doesn't feel like the pair of them can give him a real fight. (AKA he was suppressed)
-Goku goes SSB during 109, and Belmod states that "at last he has brought out the true of power of Super Saiyan Blue." Obviously indicating that he didn't use it prior to this point against Kale.
-Even though we know SSB Goku is stronger than Hit, in episode 104 Hit is still stated to be the ace of Universe 6. If Kale ACTUALLY was stronger than SSB, then she would be the ace of Universe 6.

I think this is a perfect example of people complaining about the scaling in DBS without actually bothering to understand it. Where they are perfectly willing to come up with all kinds of mental gymnastics and head canon to rationalize what happened in DBZ, they will immediately declare "lol Super's bad scaling!" without any effort to comprehend it.

F. Trunks in 10 years' worth of time got far, far stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks when in 7 years Goku, who was constantly training was still below that?

Well, 13 or 14 years depending on how you view the timeline as it pertians to Bra. Not 10 years. But yes, like I said Future Trunks's power was handled poorly and since he is on par with GOku in equivalent forms, he is also stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks in Base. Goku had retained the power of SSG as a SSJ, then gained tons of additional training, and so obviously his Base SHOULD be way stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. If Copy Vegeta had trouble had any trouble whatsoever against Gotenks, it would have been an inconsistency. You're just confused about the whole thing.

In addition to Episode 75 also having Goku & Gohan fighting equally, and not some false equivalency as you claim unless you go leaps and bounds beyond what the narrative claims to make such conclusions.

You just kind of claimed a false equivalency and didn't address anything I said. Unless you arbitrarily assume that Gohan was also suppressed in their Base vs Base squabble despite no evidence of such a thing, then it is clear that Goku was suppressed the entire time in their fight in episode 75.

the irony in this statement. Replace it with Super and you'd get just as valid of a claim.

Well then it should be easy to bring up examples of the same thing happening in Super should it not? You literally have Goku in back to back episodes, and in the same episode, having statements/feats that blatantly contradict each other in GT. You can't find such a thing happening in Super. The only arc that even has ok scaling in GT is the Baby arc and even then, it became unclear where Gohan stands(and therefore Base Goku) because they just pretended as though Gohan never had his "Ultimate" state even though in this continuity he never stopped training.

[Polyphase Avatron]

One inconsistency I remember complaining about repeatedly was that in the Tournament of Power, flying was supposedly impossible, but there were many moments when the competitors were clearly flying.

[Lord Beerus]

One inconsistency I remember complaining about repeatedly was that in the Tournament of Power, flying was supposedly impossible, but there were many moments when the competitors were clearly flying.

Oh yeah. That was dumb. I suppose the staff realized that the cast not being able to fly would hinder what kind of fights they wanted to animate, so they deliberately forgot the rule.

[BlueBasilisk]

I think Kale's berserker form was supposed to have a wildly fluctuating power level in-universe. Her no-selling Goku's Kamehameha is the only time she demostrates that level of power, but right after it happens she has to break off from fighting Goku because her power running out of control is starting to effect her and she releases a huge amount of ki, enough to wreck the ring. It's the only instance of that happening too and I doubt those two things are unrelated considering they happen back to back.

She even mentions when she fights Cabba that her ki surges and overflows. I think it was supposed to be a one-off power spike.

[Lord Beerus]

I think Kale's berserker form was supposed to have a wildly fluctuating power level in-universe. Her no-selling Goku's Kamehameha is the only time she demostrates that level of power, but right after it happens she has to break off from fighting Goku because her power running out of control is starting to effect her and she releases a huge amount of ki, enough to wreck the ring. It's the only instance of that happening too and I doubt those two things are unrelated considering they happen back to back.

She even mentions when she fights Cabba that her ki surges and overflows. I think it was supposed to be a one-off power spike.

Hmm. I never thought about it like that. That could be be plausible explanation. Perhaps that's just like what happened to Kale in the manga.

[ekrolo2]

Does Kefla being stronger than Vegetto count?

[Lord Beerus]

Does Kefla being stronger than Vegetto count?

Do you mean Vegetto in Z or Vegetto in Super? Because those are two completely different beasts in combat.

[ekrolo2]

Does Kefla being stronger than Vegetto count?

Do you mean Vegetto in Z or Vegetto in Super? Because those are two completely different beasts in combat.

Vegetto in Super. This might get a bit confusing so bear with me: when Jiren blocks the Spirit Bomb, Shin says he's the strongest opponent they'd faced by feeling out his power, making him stronger than Infinite and Merged Zamasu. The latter was already giving Vegetto a run for his money and was very likely more powerful than him. Kefla as an SS1 is comparable in power to the Spirit Bomb as Whis points out to explain why Omen is kicking back up for Goku. Kefla then powers up further into her version of SS2 and beyond that with her final attack.

So yeah, SS2 Kefla is stronger than Blue Vegetto.

[CTAkuma]

Does Kefla being stronger than Vegetto count?

Do you mean Vegetto in Z or Vegetto in Super? Because those are two completely different beasts in combat.

Vegetto in Super. This might get a bit confusing so bear with me: when Jiren blocks the Spirit Bomb, Shin says he's the strongest opponent they'd faced by feeling out his power, making him stronger than Infinite and Merged Zamasu. The latter was already giving Vegetto a run for his money and was very likely more powerful than him. Kefla as an SS1 is comparable in power to the Spirit Bomb as Whis points out to explain why Omen is kicking back up for Goku. Kefla then powers up further into her version of SS2 and beyond that with her final attack.

So yeah, SS2 Kefla is stronger than Blue Vegetto.

Yes and many people are in denial of that fact

[Polyphase Avatron]

Does Kefla being stronger than Vegetto count?

Do you mean Vegetto in Z or Vegetto in Super? Because those are two completely different beasts in combat.

Vegetto in Super. This might get a bit confusing so bear with me: when Jiren blocks the Spirit Bomb, Shin says he's the strongest opponent they'd faced by feeling out his power, making him stronger than Infinite and Merged Zamasu. The latter was already giving Vegetto a run for his money and was very likely more powerful than him. Kefla as an SS1 is comparable in power to the Spirit Bomb as Whis points out to explain why Omen is kicking back up for Goku. Kefla then powers up further into her version of SS2 and beyond that with her final attack.

So yeah, SS2 Kefla is stronger than Blue Vegetto.

I don't take much stock in lines like that from Shin.

[BlueBasilisk]

Hmm. I never thought about it like that. That could be be plausible explanation. Perhaps that's just like what happened to Kale in the manga.

That was just the impression I got, anyway. The manga explanation of how the form works nicely matches up with the way Kale acts in the anime and while it's not expressly spelled out, I think they do leave enough clues to suggest something along those lines is happening.

It doesn't help that we don't really know what the Berserk form is. It seems to exist outside of Kale's normal transformation tree. She got it before SS1 but can power up into it from SS1.

[Lord Beerus]

Does Kefla being stronger than Vegetto count?

Do you mean Vegetto in Z or Vegetto in Super? Because those are two completely different beasts in combat.

Vegetto in Super. This might get a bit confusing so bear with me: when Jiren blocks the Spirit Bomb, Shin says he's the strongest opponent they'd faced by feeling out his power, making him stronger than Infinite and Merged Zamasu. The latter was already giving Vegetto a run for his money and was very likely more powerful than him. Kefla as an SS1 is comparable in power to the Spirit Bomb as Whis points out to explain why Omen is kicking back up for Goku. Kefla then powers up further into her version of SS2 and beyond that with her final attack.

So yeah, SS2 Kefla is stronger than Blue Vegetto.

I think the reason that Vegetto couldn't kill Merged Zamasu wasn't because of his strength but because of his bullshit hax regeneration. SSJB Vegetto was dominating 90% of the fight against Merged Zamasu. And if SSJB Vegetto was up against any other opponent, that isn't Beerus or anyone above him in the pecking order of power, he'd murder them effortlessly.

There's a lot of stupid shit that happens in Episode 66 that confuses people perception of power scaling for the rest of the series.

We see in Episode 115 that a fatigued SSJB Goku was fighting evenly with SSJ Kefla. So there's every chance that, if Goku was fighting all out as SSJB or SSJB Kiaoken, he could have beaten SSJ Kefla, who according to Whis, as you stated, had a strength that rivaled the Genki Dama that through at Jiren in Episode 109 and Goku himself bathed in. This would mean that SSJB Goku could be stronger thna SSJB Vegetto. And we know that SSJB Vegetto is FAR stronger than anything that Goku can dish out.

[ekrolo2]

Do you mean Vegetto in Z or Vegetto in Super? Because those are two completely different beasts in combat.

Vegetto in Super. This might get a bit confusing so bear with me: when Jiren blocks the Spirit Bomb, Shin says he's the strongest opponent they'd faced by feeling out his power, making him stronger than Infinite and Merged Zamasu. The latter was already giving Vegetto a run for his money and was very likely more powerful than him. Kefla as an SS1 is comparable in power to the Spirit Bomb as Whis points out to explain why Omen is kicking back up for Goku. Kefla then powers up further into her version of SS2 and beyond that with her final attack.

So yeah, SS2 Kefla is stronger than Blue Vegetto.

I think the reason that Vegetto couldn't kill Merged Zamasu wasn't because of his strength but because of his bullshit hax regeneration. SSJB Vegetto was dominating 90% of the fight against Merged Zamasu. And if SSJB Vegetto, was up against any other opponent, that is Beerus or anyone above him the pecking order, he'd murder them effortlessly.

There's a lot of stupid shit that happens in Episode 66 that confuses people perception of power scaling for the rest of the series.

We see in Episode 115 that a fatigued SSJB Goku was fighting evenly with SSJ Kefla. So there's every chance that, if Goku was fighting all out as SSJB or SSJB Kiaoken, he could have beaten SSJ Kefla, who according to Whis, as you stated, had a strength that rivaled the Genki Dama that through at Jiren in Episode 109 and Goku himself bathed in. This would mean that SSJB Goku could be stronger thna SSJB Vegetto. And we know that SSJB Vegetto is FAR stronger than anything that Goku can dish out.

I know its probably not supposed to look like Blue Goku is way above Blue Vegetto but given their performances in 66 and later statements, it becomes highly likely. Which isn't all that surprising, the Super anime throws around gargantuan power increases like candy.

[BlueBasilisk]

I think the reason that Vegetto couldn't kill Merged Zamasu wasn't because of his strength but because of his bullshit hax regeneration. SSJB Vegetto was dominating 90% of the fight against Merged Zamasu. And if SSJB Vegetto, was up against any other opponent, that is Beerus or anyone above him the pecking order, he'd murder them effortlessly.

There's a lot of stupid shit that happens in Episode 66 that confuses people perception of power scaling for the rest of the series.

Wasn't Vegito fooling around with him a bit in the first part of that fight? After the Spirit Sword dupe he starts kicking Zamasu's ass and mocks him for not being able to keep up with his speed.

[ekrolo2]

I think the reason that Vegetto couldn't kill Merged Zamasu wasn't because of his strength but because of his bullshit hax regeneration. SSJB Vegetto was dominating 90% of the fight against Merged Zamasu. And if SSJB Vegetto, was up against any other opponent, that is Beerus or anyone above him the pecking order, he'd murder them effortlessly.

There's a lot of stupid shit that happens in Episode 66 that confuses people perception of power scaling for the rest of the series.

Wasn't Vegito fooling around with him a bit in the first part of that fight? After the Spirit Sword dupe he starts kicking Zamasu's ass and mocks him for not being able to keep up with his speed.

I don't know, from the way the fight went it seemed more like they wanted it to be an even bout with Vegetto only getting a real edge when Zamasu made himself too big and bulky to move fast enough. I mean, if that's their idea of a battle where Vegetto is dicking around then they really don't sell it for me.

[Lord Beerus]

I know its probably not supposed to look like Blue Goku is way above Blue Vegetto but given their performances in 66 and later statements, it becomes highly likely. Which isn't all that surprising, the Super anime throws around gargantuan power increases like candy.

I'm gonna give the Super the benefit of the doubt on this one because the story established that even when his regeneration stared to break down in some way in Episode 66, Merged Zamasu's regeneration capabilities were still broken enough that SSJB Vegetto still couldn't do anything to him and Merged Zamasu had to be literally cut in half down the middle to stop him.

I think the reason that Vegetto couldn't kill Merged Zamasu wasn't because of his strength but because of his bullshit hax regeneration. SSJB Vegetto was dominating 90% of the fight against Merged Zamasu. *And if SSJB Vegetto was up against any other opponent, that isn't Beerus or anyone above him in the pecking order of power, he'd murder them effortlessly.

There's a lot of stupid shit that happens in Episode 66 that confuses people perception of power scaling for the rest of the series.

Wasn't Vegito fooling around with him a bit in the first part of that fight? After the Spirit Sword dupe he starts kicking Zamasu's ass and mocks him for not being able to keep up with his speed.

SSJB Vegetto was fooling around a bit during the fight, but he was certainly going for the kill after Merged Zamasu bulked up in strength.

* Made a correction to my previous post. I meant to say that anyone who isn't Beerus or anyone above him in the pecking order of strength would be easy pickings for SSJB Vegetto.