How strong are Android 18 and Piccolo are after the ToP?

[PFM18]

Couldn't that have something to do with the fact that Piccolo can sense ki and 18 can't?

No. Piccolo himself said Gamisaras was nothing to him and proved it.

In any case Yamcha couldn't sense Ki back there either.

Ok but the point is what if Gamisaras was also nothing to 18 but she couldn't sense his ki?

[ZombieVito]

Ok but the point is what if Gamisaras was also nothing to 18 but she couldn't sense his ki?

I just remembered that no one could sense Gamisaras.

In any case Gamisaras broke her defenses very easily. Do you honestly think weaklings like Tenshinhan could do the same to Cell in the same scenario for example?

It was the exact scenario as Yamcha vs the invisible man. Gamisaras can't be that much weaker than 18.

[Lord Beerus]

Both #18 and Piccolo could casually murder anything that Z throws at them. Both #18 and Piccolo, by the time the TOP happens, are at the very least comfortably on par with Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan. And the Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan are hundreds of times stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks by the time of TOP.

[PFM18]

Both #18 and Piccolo could casually murder anything that Z throws at them. Both #18 and Piccolo, by the time the TOP happens, are at the very least comfortably on par with Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan. And the Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan are hundreds of times stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks by the time of TOP.

while I agree, how exactly do you come up with the figure of hundreds of times?

[Polyphase Avatron]

I don't really see why 18 should be any stronger than she was in Z... it's not like she did any kind of real intensive training or anything like 17 did. I think DBS' powerscaling is just inconsistent.

[Lord Beerus]

Both #18 and Piccolo could casually murder anything that Z throws at them. Both #18 and Piccolo, by the time the TOP happens, are at the very least comfortably on par with Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan. And the Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan are hundreds of times stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks by the time of TOP.

while I agree, how exactly do you come up with the figure of hundreds of times?

I'm exaggerating a bit when I say that. Realistically, Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan are dozens of times stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks by the time of the TOP.

[PFM18]

Both #18 and Piccolo could casually murder anything that Z throws at them. Both #18 and Piccolo, by the time the TOP happens, are at the very least comfortably on par with Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan. And the Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan are hundreds of times stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks by the time of TOP.

while I agree, how exactly do you come up with the figure of hundreds of times?

I'm exaggerating a bit when I say that. Realistically, Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan are dozens of times stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks by the time of TOP.

But then why did you bold the word if it was just hyperbole?

....yeah my extremely quantitative-statistics obsessed self came up with a figure of at least 153x SSJ3 Gotenks and I was wondering how you came to a similar conclusion. But since you didnt come to a similar conclusion this is a bit awkward....

[DestructoDisc]

Who knows. They both had inconsistent feats in the Universal Survival Saga. 18, for the most part, appeared to be around base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan's level. Same thing with Piccolo. They can one-shot anyone from the Buu arc now.

As for who's stronger between the two, I assume 18 because she got a lot more focus in that arc than Piccolo did, but to me they're around the same level.

18: I don't really have much of a clue. This uncertain is a function of how inconsistently Ribrianne was portrayed, being sometimes SSJ level, to Base Vegeta easily disposing of her, and her apparent power-up

Ribrianne wasn't powered-up when she fought base Vegeta. Once SSJB Goku kicked her, she lost her wings and transformed back into her normal Ribrianne form. It appears that whenever Ribrianne gets hit with a strong attack, she reverts back into the previous form she had before transforming. The reason base Vegeta was able to beat Ribrianne was because her mind was elsewhere in that fight. She kept thinking about her universe.

[Kataphrut]

I don't know if this as legit, but I seem to recall Piccolo handling Gohan in their training session in episode 88 was the first time he'd ever shown SS2-level feats, which felt long overdue. He was screwed during the U6 tournament when they implied he was weaker than Frost, who really shouldn't have been much stronger than Freeza on Namek. They were still doing that stupid Base Goku and Vegeta = SSG thing back then, which had the side effect of making Frost and Cabba way too strong. That was reversed by the time the Tournament of Power rolled around.

18, she's probably around SS2 level or below. She doesn't strike me as the training type, so she shouldn't be much stronger than she was in the Android saga. That combined with her infinite energy is still hella good though.

[zarmack]

I don't know if this as legit, but I seem to recall Piccolo handling Gohan in their training session in episode 88 was the first time he'd ever shown SS2-level feats, which felt long overdue. He was screwed during the U6 tournament when they implied he was weaker than Frost, who really shouldn't have been much stronger than Freeza on Namek. They were still doing that stupid Base Goku and Vegeta = SSG thing back then, which had the side effect of making Frost and Cabba way too strong. That was reversed by the time the Tournament of Power rolled around.

18, she's probably around SS2 level or below. She doesn't strike me as the training type, so she shouldn't be much stronger than she was in the Android saga. That combined with her infinite energy is still hella good though.

There was no indication that Base Goku/Vegeta > BoG SSG was ever retconned, especially not in the ToP arc. People only say it was retconned just because they don't like it. There are way too many feats throughout the whole series that says otherwise (like base Goku in the ToP arc fighting Fit Buu, who is WAY stronger than Fat Buu, who Goku needed SSJ3 to beat in the Buu arc). Just because you don't like something in the story doesn't mean it was retconned or doesn't count.

And there's nothing to suggest that Frost (who was outright said to be much stronger than Piccolo was in the Champa arc) ought to have been only as strong as Namek arc Freeza (especially since Frost is actually said to have trained from what I remember). Just because 2 characters are counterparts doesn't mean they are equally powerful.

[PFM18]

There was no indication that Base Goku/Vegeta > BoG SSG was ever retconned

Well considering that it was never stated or implied in the first place, there's no retcon necessary for BoG SSG<Base Goku/Vegeta to be false.

[Kataphrut]

I don't know if this as legit, but I seem to recall Piccolo handling Gohan in their training session in episode 88 was the first time he'd ever shown SS2-level feats, which felt long overdue. He was screwed during the U6 tournament when they implied he was weaker than Frost, who really shouldn't have been much stronger than Freeza on Namek. They were still doing that stupid Base Goku and Vegeta = SSG thing back then, which had the side effect of making Frost and Cabba way too strong. That was reversed by the time the Tournament of Power rolled around.

18, she's probably around SS2 level or below. She doesn't strike me as the training type, so she shouldn't be much stronger than she was in the Android saga. That combined with her infinite energy is still hella good though.

There was no indication that Base Goku/Vegeta > BoG SSG was ever retconned, especially not in the ToP arc. People only say it was retconned just because they don't like it. There are way too many feats throughout the whole series that says otherwise (like base Goku in the ToP arc fighting Fit Buu, who is WAY stronger than Fat Buu, who Goku needed SSJ3 to beat in the Buu arc). Just because you don't like something in the story doesn't mean it was retconned or doesn't count.

And there's nothing to suggest that Frost (who was outright said to be much stronger than Piccolo was in the Champa arc) ought to have been only as strong as Namek arc Freeza (especially since Frost is actually said to have trained from what I remember). Just because 2 characters are counterparts doesn't mean they are equally powerful.

As far as I'm concerned, that idea was long gone by the time SSG itself came back as a form. I think everything works out much neater if you look at the god forms as just the next step up from SS2 and 3 in the Buu saga rather adding an additional multiplier. It justifies characters like Trunks, Gohan, Kale and 17 achieving levels on par with or above those forms without god ki. Plus, if you want the scaling in this series to make any kind of sense, start by having it so ordinary fighters like Cabba and Frost aren't fighting on the level Goku was when he and Beerus almost disintegrated the universe. And on that note, Goku's sparring sessions during the recruitment arc aren't proof of anything in terms of power. I don't want to be the guy to bring up SSB vs Krillin, but I'm gonna bring up SSB vs Krillin. The form he uses in those fights are more indicative of how seriously he's taking the fight.

Getting back to Piccolo, the reason I think he got shafted during the Frost fight is because even if you accept that Frost is stronger than Freeza was on Namek, Piccolo himself went over the Super Saiyan level when he merged with Kami (the only non-Saiyan character introduced prior to the Android saga to do so if I recall) and has been keeping active ever since. But the series seems to forget that. That's why I found it crazy that it took until training with Gohan in episode 88 for them to finally go "ok, NOW he's stronger than Perfect Cell." It feels late compared to other characters.

[zarmack]

I don't know if this as legit, but I seem to recall Piccolo handling Gohan in their training session in episode 88 was the first time he'd ever shown SS2-level feats, which felt long overdue. He was screwed during the U6 tournament when they implied he was weaker than Frost, who really shouldn't have been much stronger than Freeza on Namek. They were still doing that stupid Base Goku and Vegeta = SSG thing back then, which had the side effect of making Frost and Cabba way too strong. That was reversed by the time the Tournament of Power rolled around.

18, she's probably around SS2 level or below. She doesn't strike me as the training type, so she shouldn't be much stronger than she was in the Android saga. That combined with her infinite energy is still hella good though.

There was no indication that Base Goku/Vegeta > BoG SSG was ever retconned, especially not in the ToP arc. People only say it was retconned just because they don't like it. There are way too many feats throughout the whole series that says otherwise (like base Goku in the ToP arc fighting Fit Buu, who is WAY stronger than Fat Buu, who Goku needed SSJ3 to beat in the Buu arc). Just because you don't like something in the story doesn't mean it was retconned or doesn't count.

And there's nothing to suggest that Frost (who was outright said to be much stronger than Piccolo was in the Champa arc) ought to have been only as strong as Namek arc Freeza (especially since Frost is actually said to have trained from what I remember). Just because 2 characters are counterparts doesn't mean they are equally powerful.

As far as I'm concerned, that idea was long gone by the time SSG itself came back as a form. I think everything works out much neater if you look at the god forms as just the next step up from SS2 and 3 in the Buu saga rather adding an additional multiplier. It justifies characters like Trunks, Gohan, Kale and 17 achieving levels on par with or above those forms without god ki. Plus, if you want the scaling in this series to make any kind of sense, start by having it so ordinary fighters like Cabba and Frost aren't fighting on the level Goku was when he and Beerus almost disintegrated the universe. And on that note, Goku's sparring sessions during the recruitment arc aren't proof of anything in terms of power. I don't want to be the guy to bring up SSB vs Krillin, but I'm gonna bring up SSB vs Krillin. The form he uses in those fights are more indicative of how seriously he's taking the fight.

Getting back to Piccolo, the reason I think he got shafted during the Frost fight is because even if you accept that Frost is stronger than Freeza was on Namek, Piccolo himself went over the Super Saiyan level when he merged with Kami (the only non-Saiyan character introduced prior to the Android saga to do so if I recall) and has been keeping active ever since. But the series seems to forget that. That's why I found it crazy that it took until training with Gohan in episode 88 for them to finally go "ok, NOW he's stronger than Perfect Cell." It feels late compared to other characters.

1. First of all, it wasn't the form itself that Goku absorbed in BoG, it was the power he had at the time fighting Beerus with it that he absorbed. That's why Goku is able to use the form again afterwards. So to use that as proof that "Saiyan beyond-God" was retconned doesn't work.

2. Goku was alright said to have been holding back against Krillin with SSB, so that argument doesn't work either. There was no indication of Goku/Vegeta holding back against Gohan, 17, Cabba, Kale, Caulifla, Frost and Fit Buu.

3. The God ki argument doesn't work either, since god ki was never stated to have anything to do with raw power in the first place (the assumption that it did was just a fan myth). Golden Freeza, Hit, SSJ Rage Trunks, Aniraza, Kefla and even Jiren don't have any god ki, yet are all at least SSB level in power.

[PFM18]

1. First of all, it wasn't the form itself that Goku absorbed in BoG, it was the power he had at the time fighting Beerus with it that he absorbed. That's why Goku is able to use the form again afterwards. So to use that as proof that "Saiyan beyond-God" was retconned doesn't work.

The form that was recognized as "Saiyan Beyond God" had nothing to do with that scene with Beerus. It was a form that was coined for the RoF movie when Goku and Vegeta learned how to use God Ki in their Base form. This Base form would invalidate the golden SSJ forms and they realized in Super they didn't want to do that so they retconned SBG and kept the golden SSJ forms. Goku and Vegeta didn't use God Ki in their Base in Super, therefore it was retconned. That was made more clear when the golden SSJ forms were used.

Goku and Beerus stated thet SSJ=SSG, and it was confirmed by the narrator. However, anything about Base>SSG is pure conjecture and not substantiated by any statements. The ONLY evidence of it is a singular punch that Goku threw at the end of the BoG arc. They established for an episode and a half that SSJ~SSG and they weren't just going to invalidate that all of a sudden and make it Base~SSG. Beerus/Goku described it as power beyond his limits when he punched the SoD which is implicitly temporary. If there was any doubt that it was temporary, nobody ever commented during RoF that Goku's ki in Base was the highest ki they had ever felt. Why? Because it isn't. The Base>SSG garbage is usually just perpetuated by mis-translations and Seth the Programmer using these mis-translations.

Getting back to Piccolo, the reason I think he got shafted during the Frost fight is because even if you accept that Frost is stronger than Freeza was on Namek

I have no idea why anybody would be under the impression he is Namek Freeza level. Goku in Base had trouble with his "Assault" form and Goku by this point dwarfs anything from the Buu arc aside from maybe SSJ Vegetto, let alone Namek Freeza.

Piccolo himself went over the Super Saiyan level when he merged with Kami (the only non-Saiyan character introduced prior to the Android saga to do so if I recall) and has been keeping active ever since. But the series seems to forget that.

There's really very little reason to believe that they have forgotten that Piccolo is stronger than Android arc/Namek Arc SSJs and that has never really been clearly contradicted in Super. But it was made clear in the Buu arc that he was way inferior to Buu arc SSJ1s let alone SSJ2s. During episode 88 Piccolo did definitely assert himself as being way higher than that Buu arc SSJ2 level, but I'm not sure why you are using Perfect Cell as a benchmark.

[RandomGuy96]

Negligibly stronger than they were in the Buu arc. 18 has been doing no serious training and Piccolo maxed out back in the Cell arc, hence why he declined a second ROSAT trip and why his strength did not undergo noticeable change (grew at a slower rate than the Saiyans, in fact) in the seven years between Cell and Buu. A Cell Junior could still kick their asses, probably.

[zarmack]

1. First of all, it wasn't the form itself that Goku absorbed in BoG, it was the power he had at the time fighting Beerus with it that he absorbed. That's why Goku is able to use the form again afterwards. So to use that as proof that "Saiyan beyond-God" was retconned doesn't work.

The form that was recognized as "Saiyan Beyond God" had nothing to do with that scene with Beerus. It was a form that was coined for the RoF movie when Goku and Vegeta learned how to use God Ki in their Base form. This Base form would invalidate the golden SSJ forms and they realized in Super they didn't want to do that so they retconned SBG and kept the golden SSJ forms. Goku and Vegeta didn't use God Ki in their Base in Super, therefore it was retconned. That was made more clear when the golden SSJ forms were used.

Goku and Beerus stated thet SSJ=SSG, and it was confirmed by the narrator. However, anything about Base>SSG is pure conjecture and not substantiated by any statements. The ONLY evidence of it is a singular punch that Goku threw at the end of the BoG arc. They established for an episode and a half that SSJ~SSG and they weren't just going to invalidate that all of a sudden and make it Base~SSG. Beerus/Goku described it as power beyond his limits when he punched the SoD which is implicitly temporary. If there was any doubt that it was temporary, nobody ever commented during RoF that Goku's ki in Base was the highest ki they had ever felt. Why? Because it isn't. The Base>SSG garbage is usually just perpetuated by mis-translations and Seth the Programmer using these mis-translations.

1. And what those Goku and Vegeta not using any God ki in there bases have to do with their strength? That argument doesn't work.

2. You are projecting intentions into the writers that simply aren't there.

3. Beerus himself early in the RoF arc when Goku and Vegeta were training with Whis noted that they were showing off more power than they had before. This was when both were in their base forms.

4. Do you have any proof of statements about Base > BoG SSG being rooted in mis-translations? And nobody brought up SethTheProgragmmer.

[zarmack]

Negligibly stronger than they were in the Buu arc. 18 has been doing no serious training and Piccolo maxed out back in the Cell arc, hence why he declined a second ROSAT trip and why his strength did not undergo noticeable change (grew at a slower rate than the Saiyans, in fact) in the seven years between Cell and Buu. A Cell Junior could still kick their asses, probably.

Both feats and statements prove that this is false. Piccolo actually did go into the ROSAT a 2nd time after Goku pointed out he still was no where near Perfect Cell's level after his 1st turn.

Also, if Piccolo didn't get much stronger since the Cell Games, he would have never been able to beat up SSJ2 Gohan in their training, let alone stand up to him after he re-unlocked his Ultimate form. And if A18 didn't get much stronger since her debut she would have been complete fodder to Ribranne (who in her various forms could match Goku & Vegeta's current Base and SSJ1 forms).

[PFM18]

1. And what those Goku and Vegeta not using any God ki in there bases have to do with their strength? That argument doesn't work.

It doesn't really. I'm just explaining that the "Saiyan Beyond God" form doesn't exist anymore. The fact that they don't use God Ki proves this to be the case because that's what defined the form in the RoF movie. Of course, their Base being stronger than SSG was only even implied in promotional material for the RoF movie that described them as having God Ki in Base. It is evident in Super that they don't have God Ki, and their SSJ forms aren't use so it should be obvious that "Saiyan Beyond God" no longer exists.

2. You are projecting intentions into the writers that simply aren't there.

Sure, I'm speculating why they got rid of Saiyan Beyond God. That may just be my speculation as to WHY they got rid of it, but it is crystal clear that they DID get rid of it. To me it seems obvious why they did it but you are free to disagree with my beliefs on it. Of course, regardless of what you think SBG does not exist in DBS.

3. Beerus himself early in the RoF arc when Goku and Vegeta were training with Whis noted that they were showing off more power than they had before. This was when both were in their base forms.

\

He just got stronger. That much is obvious. If they were to actually fight Beerus the obvious implication is that they would go Super Saiyan.

4. Do you have any proof of statements about Base > BoG SSG being rooted in mis-translations? And nobody brought up SethTheProgragmmer.

The statement that goes around where Krillin says "Goku's ki is on a completely different level from when he fought Beerus but Freeza is even, just how?" was a fan translation and the official translations from it are completely different. I brought up Seth because people like him shop around these mis-translations and so people believe it and I see it posted everywhere. But the official translations Krillin says something completely and totally different. He literally just makes a comment about being scared and he can't describe why.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that there are statements that Base>SSG. Of course, you'll have trouble finding them considering that they don't exist.

Piccolo actually did go into the ROSAT a 2nd time after Goku pointed out he still was no where near Perfect Cell's level after his 1st turn.

No he didn't. That's factually incorrect.

Also, if Piccolo didn't get much stronger since the Cell Games, he would have never been able to beat up SSJ2 Gohan in their training, let alone stand up to him after he re-unlocked his Ultimate form. And if A18 didn't get much stronger since her debut she would have been complete fodder to Ribranne (who in her various forms could match Goku & Vegeta's current Base and SSJ1 forms).

He's referring to the manga. He disregards the anime.

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo actually did go into the ROSAT a 2nd time after Goku pointed out he still was no where near Perfect Cell's level after his 1st turn.

No. He did not.

Also, if Piccolo didn't get much stronger since the Cell Games, he would have never been able to beat up SSJ2 Gohan in their training,

I don't care about Toei-only material. It's about as legitimate as base Goku beating Ultimate Gohan in Z filler.

[PFM18]

I don't care about Toei-only material. It's about as legitimate as base Goku beating Ultimate Gohan in Z filler.

As if it is remotely analogous to compare Toei on their own multiple decades ago and Toei now being assisted by Toriyama.