Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

[theherodjl]

Gotenks functions the same way. His Base is superior to the highest form of both of his fusees.

But evidently still too weak to battle SSJ Goku in a splash fight...

[Bullza]

BOG doesn't lead people to believe a god absorbed base fusion plus the merging/fused powers added boost is weaker than a single super Saiyan god.

The God absorbed Base thing doesn't account for nothing.

Base Kefla was also stronger than a Super Saiyan God and she didn't have anything to do with God.

[Miracles]

BOG doesn't lead people to believe a god absorbed base fusion plus the merging/fused powers added boost is weaker than a single super Saiyan god.

The God absorbed Base thing doesn't account for nothing.

Base Kefla was also stronger than a Super Saiyan God and she didn't have anything to do with God.

You aren't paying attention. I previously stated it still depends on power. Kefla was fused with a god level being in Kale with her legendary powers.

God absorbed definitely accounts for a Goku and Vegeta fusion power boost.

[ankokudaishogun]

base Goku and Vegeta are REALLY strong normally.

That would also imply transformations multiplier get lower the stronger the base.

[Bullza]

You aren't paying attention. I previously stated it still depends on power. Kefla was fused with a god level being in Kale with her legendary powers.

That's with her Legendary form, I didn't even mention that. In their Base forms, Caulifla didn't have any God power merged within her and Kale was a chump.

Yet even Base Kefla, not the Legendary Form, not the Super Saiyan, just the regular, nothing to with God Base Form already was stronger than Super Saiyan God.

[Darkprince410]

You aren't paying attention. I previously stated it still depends on power. Kefla was fused with a god level being in Kale with her legendary powers.

That's with her Legendary form, I didn't even mention that. In their Base forms, Caulifla didn't have any God power merged within her and Kale was a chump.

Yet even Base Kefla, not the Legendary Form, not the Super Saiyan, just the regular, nothing to with God Base Form already was stronger than Super Saiyan God.

Except if we take what we see, the two were in their transformed states when they merged, so contrary to what we've normally come to believe, it seems possible that this Kafla's base strength was going off of Kale's and Caulifla's transformed states.

[Hugo Boss]

You aren't paying attention. I previously stated it still depends on power. Kefla was fused with a god level being in Kale with her legendary powers.

That's with her Legendary form, I didn't even mention that. In their Base forms, Caulifla didn't have any God power merged within her and Kale was a chump.

Yet even Base Kefla, not the Legendary Form, not the Super Saiyan, just the regular, nothing to with God Base Form already was stronger than Super Saiyan God.

Except if we take what we see, the two were in their transformed states when they merged, so contrary to what we've normally come to believe, it seems possible that this Kafla's base strength was going off of Kale's and Caulifla's transformed states.

I don’t see how is that possible. Kefla has a Super Saiyan form. Besides, we don’t see clearly what happened in the scene they merge, but likely they reverted to base.

[Miracles]

You aren't paying attention. I previously stated it still depends on power. Kefla was fused with a god level being in Kale with her legendary powers.

That's with her Legendary form, I didn't even mention that. In their Base forms, Caulifla didn't have any God power merged within her and Kale was a chump.

Yet even Base Kefla, not the Legendary Form, not the Super Saiyan, just the regular, nothing to with God Base Form already was stronger than Super Saiyan God.

Cabba was equal to base Vegeta who had god training. A stronger Caulifla was able to battle god absorbed Goku evenly throughout the TOP in SSJ forms. Combine that with Kale with her powers and add the boost Potara gives you get that result. I told you, it totally depends on the level of power a person has.

[Bullza]

Cabba was equal to base Vegeta who had god training. A stronger Caulifla was able to battle Goku evenly throughout the TOP in SSJ forms. Combine that with Kale with her powers and add the boost Potara gives an that's the result. I told you it totally depends on the level of power a person has.

This still just accounts to two Saiyans, roughly as strong as Goku, fusing to create a Fused Base Kefla that gives a greater boost in strength than if they were to transform into Super Saiyan God athletic that point.

So the very same could have been true back then, that Base Goku and Vegeta fusing in the Battle of Gods saga could have created a Fused Based Vegito that would have given a greater boost in strength than transforming into a Super Saiyan God back then.

If Caulifla had become a Super Saiyan God, then she'd be no different from Super Saiyan God Goku. Becoming Base Kefla gave her much more strength. So this should apply to Goku.

[PFM18]

Gotenks functions the same way. His Base is superior to the highest form of both of his fusees.

I disagree. We have a lot of evidence that he's not very strong.

"not very strong" is still stronger than SSJ Goten/Trunks. Base Gotenks is demonstrably stronger than SSJ Goten/SSJ Trunks. That's not really disputable.

[Miracles]

Cabba was equal to base Vegeta who had god training. A stronger Caulifla was able to battle Goku evenly throughout the TOP in SSJ forms. Combine that with Kale with her powers and add the boost Potara gives an that's the result. I told you it totally depends on the level of power a person has.

This still just accounts to two Saiyans, roughly as strong as Goku, fusing to create a Fused Base Kefla that gives a greater boost in strength than if they were to transform into Super Saiyan God athletic that point.

So the very same could have been true back then, that Base Goku and Vegeta fusing in the Battle of Gods saga could have created a Fused Based Vegito that would have given a greater boost in strength than transforming into a Super Saiyan God back then.

If Caulifla had become a Super Saiyan God, then she'd be no different from Super Saiyan God Goku. Becoming Base Kefla gave her much more strength. So this should apply to Goku.

No, the very same couldn't have happened back then, that's why Goku threw out fusion. Super Saiyan god "surpassed everything" for the plot, in Toriyama's words. Goku or Vegeta fused back then had no powers on the level of god. A god absorbed Goku in SSJ was still able to fight Beerus, later a Caulifla is able to match a stronger god absorbed Goku. Now fuse her with a being in Kale who is Super Saiyan Blue level with the Potara boost and we get Kefla pwning god in base. That's suppose to happen NOW not then as the story escalates in power. God level has been surpassed by individuals later on, so we don't have to wonder why a fusion would be leagues above it.

[p-hyvo]

Gotenks functions the same way. His Base is superior to the highest form of both of his fusees.

I disagree. We have a lot of evidence that he's not very strong.

indeed we have.
Read the manga, piccolo's reacts with more shock in seeing base gotenks than in seeing ssj trunks/goten

[Bullza]

No, the very same couldn't have happened back then, that's why Goku threw out fusion. Super Saiyan god "surpassed everything" for the plot, in Toriyama's words. Goku or Vegeta fused back then had no powers on the level of god. A god absorbed Goku in SSJ was still able to fight Beerus, later a Caulifla is able to match a stronger god absorbed Goku. Now fuse her with a being in Kale who is Super Saiyan Blue level with the Potara boost and we get Kefla pwning god in base. That's suppose to happen NOW not then as the story escalates in power. God level has been surpassed by individuals later on, so we don't have to wonder why a fusion would be leagues above it.

Super Saiyan God surpassing everything is as worthless as Beerus using 70% of his power. In fact it would be even more worthless because it was never said in the series anyway. That he threw out Fusion also doesn't matter because the new material is still consistent with the fact that it wouldn't have been enough.

It also would not a make difference how much stronger their Base or Super Saiyan strength has grown because the Super Saiyan God strength grew a long with it. Had it stayed the same then it would make sense for a Base Fusion to overtake it but it didn't.

The only thing we know for sure is that a Base Saiyan fusing with another Base Saiyan creates a Base Fused being that is more powerful than if that Base Saiyan transformed into a Super Saiyan God.

Kale was only Blue level (not likely but whatever) in her Legendary state. That accounts for how strong Kefla is in her Legendary state. It has nothing to do with the Base form being that strong though.

Base Kefla wouldn't be any more or less powerful if neither Caulifla or Kale could even transform at all.

[ZombieVito]

Base Gotenks is demonstrably stronger than SSJ Goten/SSJ Trunks. That's not really disputable.

It is actually. He can't be stronger than the Super Saiyan kids in base since a lot of things point to his own Super Saiyan being weaker than Boo and SS2 Goku/Vegeta.

Daizenshuu.
2008 special.
Battle of Gods.
Resurrection F.

All of them state or imply that Boo/SS2 Goku/SS2 Vegeta > SS Gotenks.

[PFM18]

Base Gotenks is demonstrably stronger than SSJ Goten/SSJ Trunks. That's not really disputable.

It is actually. He can't be stronger than the Super Saiyan kids in base since a lot of things point to his own Super Saiyan being weaker than Boo and SS2 Goku/Vegeta.

Daizenshuu.
2008 special.
Battle of Gods.
Resurrection F.

All of them state or imply that Boo/SS2 Goku/SS2 Vegeta > SS Gotenks.

That makes absolutely no sense. This has nothing to do with Goku, Vegeta or Buu. Base Gotenks was openly acknowledged by Piccolo, and strongly implied by everyone's reactions, to be stronger than the SSJ kids. Again, this really isn't disputable. Base Gotenks>SSJ kids is a fact.

None of this is relevant to my point, and your counterpoint doesn't actually dispute it, but if we are going to go down that rabbit hole.....

The manga implies very heavily that his SSJ is stronger than SSJ3 Goku, let alone SSJ2 Goku. And these implications aren't even true. The 08' special, BoG, nor RoF imply what you are claiming.

[ZombieVito]

That makes absolutely no sense. This has nothing to do with Goku, Vegeta or Buu. Base Gotenks was openly acknowledged by Piccolo, and strongly implied by everyone's reactions, to be stronger than the SSJ kids. Again, this really isn't disputable. Base Gotenks>SSJ kids is a fact.

Citation needed.

The manga implies very heavily that his SSJ is stronger than SSJ3 Goku, let alone SSJ2 Goku.

We have official info that confirms that as false.

And these implications aren't even true. The 08' special, BoG, nor RoF imply what you are claiming.

In the 2008 special Gotenks failed to beat Aka. Goku one shotted him.

In BoG both Boo and SS2 Vegeta have a much better performance than him against Beerus.

In RoF Kuririn tells 18 that Gohan and Boo are the only ones on Earth capable of defending it against Freeza. He then implies Good Boo is enough to beat First Form Freeza the next episode (This is also on Toriyama's RoF script). Gotenks was never mentioned and when he goes to the battlefield he is told he can't do anything.

[Miracles]

No, the very same couldn't have happened back then, that's why Goku threw out fusion. Super Saiyan god "surpassed everything" for the plot, in Toriyama's words. Goku or Vegeta fused back then had no powers on the level of god. A god absorbed Goku in SSJ was still able to fight Beerus, later a Caulifla is able to match a stronger god absorbed Goku. Now fuse her with a being in Kale who is Super Saiyan Blue level with the Potara boost and we get Kefla pwning god in base. That's suppose to happen NOW not then as the story escalates in power. God level has been surpassed by individuals later on, so we don't have to wonder why a fusion would be leagues above it.

Super Saiyan God surpassing everything is as worthless as Beerus using 70% of his power. In fact it would be even more worthless because it was never said in the series anyway. That he threw out Fusion also doesn't matter because the new material is still consistent with the fact that it wouldn't have been enough.

It also would not a make difference how much stronger their Base or Super Saiyan strength has grown because the Super Saiyan God strength grew a long with it. Had it stayed the same then it would make sense for a Base Fusion to overtake it but it didn't.

The only thing we know for sure is that a Base Saiyan fusing with another Base Saiyan creates a Base Fused being that is more powerful than if that Base Saiyan transformed into a Super Saiyan God.

Kale was only Blue level (not likely but whatever) in her Legendary state. That accounts for how strong Kefla is in her Legendary state. It has nothing to do with the Base form being that strong though.

Base Kefla wouldn't be any more or less powerful if neither Caulifla or Kale could even transform at all.

You are using headcannon to try and justify your stand with dismissing canon facts. "Super Saiyan god surpassing everything in BOG is as worthless as Beerus using nearly 70% of his power?" Lol, you have no authority to make a claim. Toriyama himself made the claim to Yamammuro, about SSJ god. So it doesn't need to be in the movie to be valid when it came from the author. Whis specifically stated in RoF movie that Beerus has not mastered Ultra Instinct "YET." Which means, he is still training. So if he increases in power, the reason for it is his training. It by no means tosses away the 70% claim. Again that is more headcannon coming from the fandom.

You seem to not understand about Kefla. Her base mode pwning red Goku [A fatigued one at that] is due to her fusee being BOG god level strong, plus the Patora boost. Caulifla can match Goku in blond mode. That means, she is around a stronger god absorbed SSJ Goku, whom Beerus stated back in BOG, "didn't power down all that much" from god. What you fail to realize, red was stated to be in a dimension above anything Goku has ever seen back in BOG. Goku and Vegeta's regular powers back then in BOG was no where near it. However, later they obviously surpassed that realm as power escalation requires them to get stronger therefore opponents are stronger. Bottom line, it is headcannon to try and compare a BOG Vegetto/Gogeta with no god power, no power around god level and no special god training to a TOP Kefla who has a fusee stronger than Goku back then in BOG plus Patora boost.

[Bullza]

Toriyama himself made the claim to Yamammuro, about SSJ god. So it doesn't need to be in the movie to be valid when it came from the author.

Sorry but that's completely worthless. One person told another person something is all that is. Was this said in the movie? In the anime? In any official material? Did Toriyama say it outright himself in an published interview? No, he told someone something...

Whis specifically stated in RoF movie that Beerus has not mastered Ultra Instinct "YET." Which means, he is still training.

Which has never been shown. So this Beerus guy who is a couple hundred million old is only so strong that he requires 70% of his strength to beat Goku...but then somehow from not being shown to do anything he got to the point that he was still stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku with the Kaio-ken x20 with an extra two years?

Bottom line, it is headcannon to try and compare a BOG Vegetto/Gogeta with no god power, no power around god level and no special god training to a TOP Kefla who has a fusee stronger than Goku back then in BOG plus Patora boost.

I think you're not getting the point here. I know that this Base Kefla would have monumentakly more powerful than that Base Vegito. That this Base Gogeta is also stronger than that Base Vegito.

Caulifla was every bit as strong as Goku. If Caulifla had become a Super Saiyan God she'd still be roughly as strong as Goku in the same form.

But no instead she fused with another Saiyan (a weaker one) and it created a fusion that was stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku. Fusing with another Saiyan, and not transforming on top of that, has been shown more than once to give a greater boost in strength than turning Super Saiyan God.

Goku fusing with Vegeta in Broly resulted in a Base Gogeta that had more strength than when Goku turned Super Saiyan God. It doesn't matter what was said all the way back in 2013. In 2019 this is what is being shown.

[Darkprince410]

That makes absolutely no sense. This has nothing to do with Goku, Vegeta or Buu. Base Gotenks was openly acknowledged by Piccolo, and strongly implied by everyone's reactions, to be stronger than the SSJ kids. Again, this really isn't disputable. Base Gotenks>SSJ kids is a fact.

Citation needed.

When the boys fused inside the Room of Spirit and Time, but before Piccolo realized that they could transform after fusing, he makes this comment.

Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”

Unless you believe that Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks, after their training for barely two weeks in the Room of Spirit and Time, would have put them high enough to where someone like Piccolo would have thought they had a chance against the likes of Evil Buu, then Piccolo's comment here more or less indicates that he felt Gotenks' power, in his base form, was just that tremendous.

We have official info that confirms that as false.

There isn't anything within the manga that says that's false.

[Miracles]

Toriyama himself made the claim to Yamammuro, about SSJ god. So it doesn't need to be in the movie to be valid when it came from the author.

Sorry but that's completely worthless. One person told another person something is all that is. Was this said in the movie? In the anime? In any official material? Did Toriyama say it outright himself in an published interview? No, he told someone something...

It's what the highest authority, Toriyama told the animation supervisor, another authority on the film BOG, concerning Super Saiyan god's power. You don't get to dismiss truth cause you don't like how the facts are presented.

Whis specifically stated in RoF movie that Beerus has not mastered Ultra Instinct "YET." Which means, he is still training.

Which has never been shown. So this Beerus guy who is a couple hundred million old is only so strong that he requires 70% of his strength to beat Goku...but then somehow from not being shown to do anything he got to the point that he was still stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku with the Kaio-ken x20 with an extra two years?

Your headcannon isn't going to change the fact that the plot said Beerus trains. Regardless of not seeing him do it. We don't see some characters go to the bathroom either, does that mean they don't use it?

Bottom line, it is headcannon to try and compare a BOG Vegetto/Gogeta with no god power, no power around god level and no special god training to a TOP Kefla who has a fusee stronger than Goku back then in BOG plus Patora boost.

I think you're not getting the point here. I know that this Base Kefla would have monumentakly more powerful than that Base Vegito. That this Base Gogeta is also stronger than that Base Vegito.

Caulifla was every bit as strong as Goku. If Caulifla had become a Super Saiyan God she'd still be roughly as strong as Goku in the same form.

But no instead she fused with another Saiyan (a weaker one) and it created a fusion that was stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku. Fusing with another Saiyan, and not transforming on top of that, has been shown more than once to give a greater boost in strength than turning Super Saiyan God.

Goku fusing with Vegeta in Broly resulted in a Base Gogeta that had more strength than when Goku turned Super Saiyan God. It doesn't matter what was said all the way back in 2013. In 2019 this is what is being shown.

[/quote]
Super Saiyan god was greater than fusion back in BOG only. You have this incorrect mindset that somehow that precedence was set in stone for the rest of the series. No, power escalation is always in full force in Dragonball. TOP Caulifla, who was already stronger than BOG SSJ god Goku, fused with the Patora boost is gonna produce a greater effect than a weaker Goku and Vegeta in BOG. Therefore it's no surprise base Kefla would own god Goku since she was stronger than base Cabba who equaled a god trained base Vegeta. Again, Kefla actually has a BOG god level fusee in her. That means she possessed power that rivaled BOG SSJ red which was greater than anything fusion could produce then.