Death Battle: Goku vs Superman 2

[rereboy]

What Death Battle doesn't seem to get is that there are characters in the DC universe that can (and have) smacked around Superman as easily as Beerus could smack around Pilaf, or even more so. Try asking them who would win, Superman or any one of the following:

The Spectre
Lucifer Morningstar
Michael Demiurgos
The Presence
The Primal Monitor
Dream/Destiny/Death/Desire/Despair/Destruction/Delirium of the Endless
God form Swamp Thing
The Word
The Great Evil Beast
The Source
The Infinite Man
The Time Trapper
Zero Hour Parallax (who notably KO'd Superman with a single casual punch BTW)
Ion
Anti-Life Entity
Synnar
The Phantom Stranger
Mr. Mxyzptlk (no, making him say his name backwards doesn't count, that's just a game he plays. I mean if he was actually serious and out for blood)
Bat-Mite
Nekron
Rama Kushna
Rao (this is the god the Kryptonians worship in fact)

If they say he can win or even has a chance, you just know they don't read the comics.

Even back in the Silver Age, when Superman was at his most consistently ridiculous, there were other heroes on Earth alone that he knew he had no chance of beating, i.e. Dr. Fate.

I'm pretty sure they know that or they wouldn't even have mentioned the fact that Superman was able to lift The Spectre as something really impressive.

What you don't seem to get is that they simply argued, after listing all the numerous in-universe reasons for why they think Superman would win, that when we look at the character of Superman and the intent behind the character throughout the years and the writers (aka from an out-of-universe point of view), we begin to notice that Superman is a character that is more about already beyond the limits and coping with that condition, while Goku is a character that struggles with his limits and tries to overcome them to defeat his enemies and improve himself.

That means that, the way the characters work and are typically written, Goku will be, presumably, always be lagging behind Superman, because, typically, Goku will be struggling with some limit while Superman is already beyond it. Instead of understanding this, you are taking what they said to mean that Superman is automatically superior, in-universe, to any other character in fiction, ever. That is not what they said or meant.

In short, what they are saying is that Superman is, in intent and point to the character, much more similar to Onepunch-man than Goku is and that fact makes them different in intent and gives Superman an edge that Goku will never have.

Onepunch-man is also pretty much a character that is already beyond the limits and his point is more about him coping with that than anything else. That is not the same as saying that he is superior to every fictional character ever. The same things applies to Superman.

[Polyphase Avatron]

But they used that as an argument for why Superman would win.

To use your example, that's like saying Saitama wins all his fights in his series, so he can automatically beat anyone from any other series, even if they have powers that would make all of his abilities useless against them. And unlike Saitama, Superman doesn't even win all of his fights in his own stories.

[rereboy]

But they used that as an argument for why Superman would win.

To use your example, that's like saying Saitama wins all his fights in his series, so he can automatically beat anyone from any other series, even if they have powers that would make all of his abilities useless against them. And unlike Saitama, Superman doesn't even win all of his fights in his own stories.

They listed numerous in-universe reasons and arguments for why they felt Superman would win. Only THEN, to top it off, they mentioned that out-in-universe reason/argument that actually is perfectly relevant since it really gives an edge to the Superman character in the typical writings of the character compared to Goku.

Like I said to you before, that wasn't the only argument they used. You would only have a point if they were basing all of what they said purely on that.

For example, If they were comparing Onepunch-man to another character, let's say, Gutts from Berserk, and they did it the same way they did Superman and Goku, they would list their abilities, they would list their feats, they would compare their abilities and feats, they would state how they think they would fare against each other and which character seemed to be superior based on that, giving emphasis on the most impressive feats and then, to top if off, they would mention the intent behind the characters, mentioning the edge Onepunch-man has got due to being a character that is beyond the limits and that is more about coping with his condition, while Gutts is a character that is constantly struggling with his limits. And if you followed what you are saying about Superman and Goku, you would just focus on this last part, forgetting what else they said, and state that apparently they think that Onepunch-man is unbeatable because he is beyond the limits.

[jcogginsa]

But they used that as an argument for why Superman would win.

To use your example, that's like saying Saitama wins all his fights in his series, so he can automatically beat anyone from any other series, even if they have powers that would make all of his abilities useless against them. And unlike Saitama, Superman doesn't even win all of his fights in his own stories.

They listed numerous in-universe reasons and arguments for why they felt Superman would win. Only THEN, to top it off, they mentioned that out-in-universe reason/argument that actually is perfectly relevant since it really gives an edge to the Superman character in the typical writings of the character compared to Goku.

Like I said to you before, that wasn't the only argument they used. You would only have a point if they were basing all of what they said purely on that.

For example, If they were comparing Onepunch-man to another character, let's say, Gutts from Berserk, and they did it the same way they did Superman and Goku, they would list their abilities, they would list their feats, they would compare their abilities and feats, they would state how they think they would fare against each other and which character seemed to be superior based on that, giving emphasis on the most impressive feats and then, to top if off, they would mention the intent behind the characters, mentioning the edge Onepunch-man has got due to being a character that is beyond the limits and that is more about coping with his condition, while Gutts is a character that is constantly struggling with his limits. And if you followed what you are saying about Superman and Goku, you would just focus on this last part, forgetting what else they said, and state that apparently they think that Onepunch-man is unbeatable because he is beyond the limits.

Death Battle shot themselves in the foot. Superman surpasses Goku based on his feats, so give him the win based on that. Don't bring in some BS "has no limits" factor. All it does is give the viewer carte blanche to say they're biased and ignore the ruling

[voltlunok]

Death Battle shot themselves in the foot. Superman surpasses Goku based on his feats, so give him the win based on that. Don't bring in some BS "has no limits" factor. All it does is give the viewer carte blanche to say they're biased and ignore the ruling

You do realize even if they didn't bring up the whole 'no limits' thing, people would still be yelling that they're bias and ignore the ruling anyways right? The no limits argument is dumb sure but even if it wasn't there, people would still be yelling that deathbattle is bias against dragon ball or that they just hate anime. People wanted Goku to win, told themselves that Goku would win instantly, that he would just one shot supes with a kamehameha and be done with it! Then it didn't happen and people were mad and mad people don't really have the best track record for listening to rational arguments.

[rereboy]

Death Battle shot themselves in the foot. Superman surpasses Goku based on his feats, so give him the win based on that. Don't bring in some BS "has no limits" factor. All it does is give the viewer carte blanche to say they're biased and ignore the ruling

To be very blunt, it's not their fault if the viewers don't realize that they gave plenty of in-universe arguments and reasons besides that out-of-universe argument, and it's not their fault that the viewers don't understand what they mean by it, even though they actually explain it.

[jcogginsa]

Death Battle shot themselves in the foot. Superman surpasses Goku based on his feats, so give him the win based on that. Don't bring in some BS "has no limits" factor. All it does is give the viewer carte blanche to say they're biased and ignore the ruling

You do realize even if they didn't bring up the whole 'no limits' thing, people would still be yelling that they're bias and ignore the ruling anyways right? The no limits argument is dumb sure but even if it wasn't there, people would still be yelling that deathbattle is bias against dragon ball or that they just hate anime. People wanted Goku to win, told themselves that Goku would win instantly, that he would just one shot supes with a kamehameha and be done with it! Then it didn't happen and people were mad and mad people don't really have the best track record for listening to rational arguments.

Yeah, but here even people who think Superman would win disagree with their ruling

Death Battle shot themselves in the foot. Superman surpasses Goku based on his feats, so give him the win based on that. Don't bring in some BS "has no limits" factor. All it does is give the viewer carte blanche to say they're biased and ignore the ruling

To be very blunt, it's not their fault if the viewers don't realize that they gave plenty of in-universe arguments and reasons besides that out-of-universe argument, and it's not their fault that the viewers don't understand what they mean by it, even though they actually explain it.

The problem isn't the viewers not understanding them. The problem is that they undermined themselves by making up bullshit

[rereboy]

The problem isn't the viewers not understanding them. The problem is that they undermined themselves by making up bullshit

How exactly is it "bullshit" to mention that Superman is a character that typically is portrayed as a character that is already beyond the limits, that is pretty much always superior in power, that pretty much all of his struggles are typically against stuff that make him weaker, or him coping with his condition, or some sort of mind games, or him figuring out a way to ruin the plans of his enemies besides just killing them and so on?

The typical story of Superman is not "Superman is not powerful enough for this challenge, he needs to become more powerful!". That's a typical Goku story.

So, how exactly is it bullshit to mention, after stating numerous in-universe reasons for why they think Superman would win, that there's even an out-of-universe reason for why Superman always has a edge which is the intent behind the character of Superman?

None of that is bullshit, it's all very true, sorry.

[jcogginsa]

The problem isn't the viewers not understanding them. The problem is that they undermined themselves by making up bullshit

How exactly is it "bullshit" to mention that Superman is a character that typically is portrayed as a character that is already beyond the limits, that is pretty much always superior in power, that pretty much all of his struggles are typically against stuff that make him weaker, or him coping with his condition, or some sort of mind games, or him figuring out a way to ruin the plans of his enemies besides just killing them and so on?

The typical story of Superman is not "Superman is not powerful enough for this challenge, he needs to become more powerful!". That's a typical Goku story.

So, how exactly is it bullshit to mention, after stating numerous in-universe reasons for why they think Superman would win, that there's even an out-of-universe reason for why Superman always has a edge which is the intent behind the character of Superman?

None of that is bullshit, it's all very true, sorry.

Because superman is NOT traditionally portrayed as beyond limits. He has limits, they're just really high limits. There are TONS of people who are recognized as either just as strong as him or outright superior, and one of the reoccuring themes of his stories is "I have all this power but i can't fix anything."

Furthermore, using the "Limitless" thing just kicks the floor out of their ruling. It says that they'd give the victory to superman even if Goku did have better feats (Not that he did, when the episodes were made). I actually think Superman would win, and even I thought that at the end of the second video

[rereboy]

Because superman is NOT traditionally portrayed as beyond limits. He has limits, they're just really high limits. There are TONS of people who are recognized as either just as strong as him or outright superior, and one of the reoccuring themes of his stories is "I have all this power but i can't fix anything."

Furthermore, using the "Limitless" thing just kicks the floor out of their ruling. It says that they'd give the victory to superman even if Goku did have better feats (Not that he did, when the episodes were made). I actually think Superman would win, and even I thought that at the end of the second video

They aren't saying that "beyond the limits" is equal to literally omnipotence and, thus, that he is superior to every other character ever... That is just a way to say that Superman's power typically is already beyond what is needed for his challenges.

Unlike Goku, Superman typically is not about him struggling to get stronger so that he can overcome with power the difficulties that appear. The typical intent behind his writing is him struggling with what to do and the best way to do it than actually becoming more powerful because, typically, he never lacks the necessary power except in the rare times he directly faces beings like The Spectre and so on. The writing intent behind Goku is basically the opposite.

To put it simply, the typical writing intent behind Goku is him always being the underdog, while the typical writing intent behind Superman is him being the top dog. And that, besides being true, is something perfectly relevant to mention when we are comparing the two characters from an out-of-universe point of view.

You just misunderstood what they meant, took it to mean that they are saying that Superman is literally omnipotent and superior to all characters ever, and when I pointed out that that's not what they meant, you again insisted that it is and that is bullshit. I will say it again, no, that's not what they meant, no, they aren't saying that he is omnipotent and thus superior to everything ever, and no, what they pointed out is far from being bullshit and it is actually true.

[jcogginsa]

Because superman is NOT traditionally portrayed as beyond limits. He has limits, they're just really high limits. There are TONS of people who are recognized as either just as strong as him or outright superior, and one of the reoccuring themes of his stories is "I have all this power but i can't fix anything."

Furthermore, using the "Limitless" thing just kicks the floor out of their ruling. It says that they'd give the victory to superman even if Goku did have better feats (Not that he did, when the episodes were made). I actually think Superman would win, and even I thought that at the end of the second video

They aren't saying that "beyond the limits" is equal to literally omnipotence and that he is, thus superior to every other character ever... That is just a way to say that Superman's power typically is already beyond what is needed for his challenges.

Unlike Goku, Superman typically is not about him struggling to get stronger so that he can overcome with power the difficulties that appear. The typical intent behind his writing is him struggling with what to do and the best way to do it than actually becoming more powerful because, typically, he never lacks the necessary power except in the rare times he directly faces beings like The Spectre and so on. The writing intent behind Goku is basically the opposite.

To put it simply, the typical writing intent behind Goku is him always being the underdog, while the typical writing intent behind Superman is him being the top dog. And that, besides being true, is something perfectly relevant to mention when we are comparing the two characters from an out-of-universe point of view.

You just misunderstood what they meant, took it to meant that they are saying that Superman is literally omnipotent and superior to all characters ever, and when I pointed out that that's not what they meant, you again insisted that it is...

That's not a difference between Goku and Superman, that's a difference between Manga and American comics.

Further, i know exactly what they were TRYING to say. And the meaning the conveyed is different from what they tried to convey. That's their mistake

[rereboy]

That's not a difference between Goku and Superman, that's a difference between Manga and American comics.

Further, i know exactly what they were TRYING to say. And the meaning the conveyed is different from what they tried to convey. That's their mistake

I don't think you do since I've already mentioned Onepunch-man, which is a manga, not a comic, and where the hero is written precisely with the intent of him being "beyond the limits" and him never really lacking the power to face his challenges (even more so that Superman, actually). What was said about Superman in deathbattle could have been said just as easily for Onepunch-man and, just like regarding Superman, that wouldn't mean that they are saying that Onepunch-man is literally omnipotent and stronger than every character ever. It would be just a comment regarding the writing intent behind the character and how that differs from someone like Goku. As this point, it seems clear to me that you are refusing to acknowledge anything besides what you think they meant.

[jcogginsa]

That's not a difference between Goku and Superman, that's a difference between Manga and American comics.

Further, i know exactly what they were TRYING to say. And the meaning the conveyed is different from what they tried to convey. That's their mistake

I don't think you do since I've already mentioned Onepunch-man, which is a manga, not a comic, and where the hero is written precisely with the intent of him being "beyond the limits" and him never really lacking the power to face his challenges (even more so that Superman, actually). What was said about Superman in deathbattle could have been said just as easily for Onepunch-man and, just like regarding Superman, that wouldn't mean that they are saying that Onepunch-man is literally omnipotent and stronger than every character ever. It would be just a comment regarding the writing intent behind the character and how that differs from someone like Goku. As this point, it seems clear to me that you are refusing to acknowledge anything besides what you think they meant.

That's because One Punch Man is written in the style of american comics. It's parody.

Furthermore, Saitama and Superman are completely different characters. Something said about both of them more than likely be wrong about one of them

And you are refusing to acknowledge that they could have made a mistake

[rereboy]

That's because One Punch Man is written in the style of american comics. It's parody.

Furthermore, Saitama and Superman are completely different characters. Something said about both of them more than likely be wrong about one of them

And you are refusing to acknowledge that they could have made a mistake

So, the fact that the same thing could have been said regarding Onepunch-man without it meaning that Onepunch-man is literally omnipotent doesn't matter? What matters is that Saitama is not exactly the same character as Superman and that the manga is a comedy? Even though that doesn't negate the fact that the same thing could have been said regarding Onepunch-man without it meaning that Onepunch-man is literally omnipotent?

And no, I actually think that they made plenty of mistakes and things I don't agree with in the finer points of their comparison. But after actually paying attention to what they said, it's clear to me that they never said that they actually think Superman is omnipotent and thus that he is superior to every other character ever, and it's clear that they were, instead, commenting on the writing intent behind both characters and commenting how Goku is typically the underdog and Superman is typically the top dog, aka "beyond the limits" of what he faces, which is a perfectly relevant out-of-universe factor to mention in a comparison.

What you are suggesting would imply that they would think that Superman would be superior to things like the Presence and the Spectre, which simply doesn't make sense since it's clear that they are actually knowledgeable about those kind of beings from DC and other universes, nor is it coherent with what they said and the examples they gave (like mentioning how impressive it was that Superman was able to lift the Spectre). They never said or implied anything of the sort. What they meant is pretty clear on what they said, and it is not that Superman is omnipotent.

[jcogginsa]

That's because One Punch Man is written in the style of american comics. It's parody.

Furthermore, Saitama and Superman are completely different characters. Something said about both of them more than likely be wrong about one of them

And you are refusing to acknowledge that they could have made a mistake

So, the fact that the same thing could have been said regarding Onepunch-man without it meaning that Onepunch-man is literally omnipotent doesn't matter? What matters is that Saitama is not exactly the same character as Superman and that the manga is a comedy? Even though that doesn't negate the fact that the same thing could have been said regarding Onepunch-man without it meaning that Onepunch-man is literally omnipotent?

And no, I actually think that they made plenty of mistakes and things I don't agree with in the finer points of their comparison. But after actually paying attention to what they said, it's clear to me that they never said that they actually think Superman is omnipotent and thus that he is superior to every other character ever, and it's clear that they were, instead, commenting on the writing intent behind both characters and commenting how Goku is typically the underdog and Superman is typically the top dog, aka "beyond the limits" of what he faces, which is a perfectly relevant out-of-universe factor to mention in a comparison.

What you are suggesting would imply that they would think that Superman would be superior to things like the Presence and the Spectre, which simply doesn't make sense since it's clear that they are actually knowledgeable about those kind of beings from DC and other universes, nor is it coherent with what they said and the examples they gave (like mentioning how impressive it was that Superman was able to lift the Spectre). They never said or implied anything of the sort. What they meant is pretty clear on what they said, and it is not that Superman is omnipotent.

Their atitude about Superman and his limits makes them come off as lazy, because the way they said it makes it seem like no matter what Goku ever did, he'd never get the win. which is bullshit

[Polyphase Avatron]

That's because One Punch Man is written in the style of american comics. It's parody.

Furthermore, Saitama and Superman are completely different characters. Something said about both of them more than likely be wrong about one of them

And you are refusing to acknowledge that they could have made a mistake

So, the fact that the same thing could have been said regarding Onepunch-man without it meaning that Onepunch-man is literally omnipotent doesn't matter? What matters is that Saitama is not exactly the same character as Superman and that the manga is a comedy? Even though that doesn't negate the fact that the same thing could have been said regarding Onepunch-man without it meaning that Onepunch-man is literally omnipotent?

And no, I actually think that they made plenty of mistakes and things I don't agree with in the finer points of their comparison. But after actually paying attention to what they said, it's clear to me that they never said that they actually think Superman is omnipotent and thus that he is superior to every other character ever, and it's clear that they were, instead, commenting on the writing intent behind both characters and commenting how Goku is typically the underdog and Superman is typically the top dog, aka "beyond the limits" of what he faces, which is a perfectly relevant out-of-universe factor to mention in a comparison.

What you are suggesting would imply that they would think that Superman would be superior to things like the Presence and the Spectre, which simply doesn't make sense since it's clear that they are actually knowledgeable about those kind of beings from DC and other universes, nor is it coherent with what they said and the examples they gave (like mentioning how impressive it was that Superman was able to lift the Spectre). They never said or implied anything of the sort. What they meant is pretty clear on what they said, and it is not that Superman is omnipotent.

Their atitude about Superman and his limits makes them come off as lazy, because the way they said it makes it seem like no matter what Goku ever did, he'd never get the win. which is bullshit

Like I said much earlier in this thread, I have a feeling that part of the reason they tried to argue that was so they wouldn't have to do any more videos about this matchup.

[jcogginsa]

Like I said much earlier in this thread, I have a feeling that part of the reason they tried to argue that was so they wouldn't have to do any more videos about this matchup.

Which ironic, because all it did was make even more people demand another rematch.

[Bullza]

That's because of the convenient timing for Goku fans where he ended up getting a new Super Saiyan God form just 2 months after the video came out.

Then it's happened again now where Super came out just shortly after the rematch video was put up.

[Polyphase Avatron]

And I suppose they have to make a new video every time either character does something new? Which means they'll be making videos of this same match forever.

[Sora Saiyan]

And I suppose they have to make a new video every time either character does something new? Which means they'll be making videos of this same match forever.

I don't think that's quite what people are annoyed about. I think it's more to do with the fact they put SSJGSS against Superman when the form had no feats. Now Super has shown what SSJG is actually capable of there's bound to be people complaining about them doing Goku vs Superman 2 when they did.