Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[AvatarReiko]

All Ginyu did was bring out Tagoma's full powers which he was previously hiding when he fought Piccolo.

Which means that Togima must have already on that level, which is still just silly. Unless, you are saying that Ginyu's body swap technqu automatically gives his victims a 10000x increase?

[singsing]

All Ginyu did was bring out Tagoma's full powers which he was previously hiding when he fought Piccolo.

Which means that Togima must have already on that level, which is still just silly. Unless, you are saying that Ginyu's body swap technqu automatically gives his victims a 10000x increase?

Tagoma was already on that level...? He was Zarbon level, trained, then Ginyu body swapped and used his full power instead of what he was holding back.

[Sandubadear]

Things get complicated when associating the current strength chart with that of previous arcs.

What are you talking about? Piccolo is probably stronger than 2nd Form Cell since the Cell Games, and he never stopped training according to Toriyama, so he didn't get weaker. Base Goku pre-SSG was weaker than Full Power Freeza, while Piccolo was much, much stronger than Full Power Freeza. Tagoma was at Zarbon & Dodoria level, but after his training, he became much stronger than Piccolo, and as strong as FnF base Gohan. So, FnF Gohan is stronger than Piccolo, as well as base Goku & Vegeta from the beginning of BoG.

Nothing here is complicated. Super isn't a reboot, it's the continuation of the Majin Boo arc, which is why everything from the manga/anime still applies in Super.

What about Kuririn, Piccolo and Gohan considering Shisami a strong opponent, and in the movie, the Shisami vs. Piccolo fight?

The strength chart on Super makes sense if you only consider Super itself, but it gets messed up if you associate it with the previous series.

[AvatarReiko]

All Ginyu did was bring out Tagoma's full powers which he was previously hiding when he fought Piccolo.

Which means that Togima must have already on that level, which is still just silly. Unless, you are saying that Ginyu's body swap technqu automatically gives his victims a 10000x increase?

Tagoma was already on that level...? He was Zarbon level, trained, then Ginyu body swapped and used his full power instead of what he was holding back.

Which is what I orginally said. Ginyu must also be a prodigy like Frieza if he can make such tremendous gains in 3 months. Besides, how is training as a frog.

[ZombieVito]

1st form Freeza is just too OP. He will most likely beat an enraged ultimate Gohan.

[Doctor.]

Which is what I orginally said. Ginyu must also be a prodigy like Freeza if he can make such tremendous gains in 3 months. Besides, how is training as a frog.

Why are you bringing Ginyu training into this? Tagoma trained, got super strong, Ginyu switched bodies and now has access to the power of Tagoma's body, that's it.

[Hugo Boss]

You can't isolate Super from the rest of the series. The story picks up after the Boo Saga, unless said otherwise the characters still have(at least) the power they had before. We know for a fact Piccolo is stronger than Freeza before his training. Tagoma defeats Piccolo easily, that's a statement of strength that puts him above Freeza previous strength.

A statement is a line said by "x" character. You get a line of Sorbet about Tagoma powering-up to a level that further surpass Ginyu Force, nothing better than that. Sorbet could have said something like "Tagoma has now powered-up to beyond Freeza-sama's level when we revived him" or "[...]beyond those Super Saiyans". In Cell Arc, after merging with Kami and training in the Room of Spirit and Time, Piccolo has surpassed Super Saiyans and Cyborgs that could easily defeat Freeza, yes. Boo Arc doesn't touch on the subject, but all that stuff seems to be overlooked in Dragon Ball-related material since 2008. Of course, these are just my current impressions. People can still think it makes sense Piccolo offering help to defeat someone at Zarbon's level or that person easily deflecting Base Gohan's ki blasts.

[Sandubadear]

You can't isolate Super from the rest of the series. The story picks up after the Boo Saga, unless said otherwise the characters still have(at least) the power they had before. We know for a fact Piccolo is stronger than Freeza before his training. Tagoma defeats Piccolo easily, that's a statement of strength that puts him above Freeza previous strength.

A statement is a line said by "x" character. You get a line of Sorbet about Tagoma powering-up to a level that further surpass Ginyu Force, nothing better than that. Sorbet could have said something like "Tagoma has now powered-up to beyond Freeza-sama's level when we revived him" or "[...]beyond those Super Saiyans". In Cell Arc, after merging with Kami and training in the Room of Spirit and Time, Piccolo has surpassed Super Saiyans and Cyborgs that could easily defeat Freeza, yes. Boo Arc doesn't touch on the subject, but all that stuff seems to be overlooked in Dragon Ball-related material since 2008. Of course, these are just my current impressions. People can still think it makes sense Piccolo offering help to defeat someone at Zarbon's level or that person easily deflecting Base Gohan's ki blasts.

I agree 100%.

[Noah]

1st form Freeza is just too OP. He will most likely beat an enraged ultimate Gohan.

Exactly!

I prefer to stick with his RoF counterpart, where I could put his BP as:

1st Form Freeza = Somewhat above a SSJ2 Tier
2st Form Freeza = Fat Boo Tier
3rd Form Freeza = SSJ3 Tier
Final Form Freeza = Boo-han Tier
100% FP Freeza = SSJ3 Vegetto

But in DBS what would be?

1st Form Freeza = Above a SSJ3/Untrained Ultimate Gohan tier
2st Form Freeza = Super Boo/Boo-ccolo tier?
3rd Form Freeza = Super Boo-han tier?
Final Form Freeza = Super Vegetto or SSJ2/3 Vegetto tier?

[ZombieVito]

I think it's time to let go of Freeza's second and third forms. They don't exist anymore.

The only reason Freeza is in his "first form" is because he likes it. Not to mention he has spent most of his life in that form.

[LightBing]

You can't isolate Super from the rest of the series. The story picks up after the Boo Saga, unless said otherwise the characters still have(at least) the power they had before. We know for a fact Piccolo is stronger than Freeza before his training. Tagoma defeats Piccolo easily, that's a statement of strength that puts him above Freeza previous strength.

A statement is a line said by "x" character. You get a line of Sorbet about Tagoma powering-up to a level that further surpass Ginyu Force, nothing better than that. Sorbet could have said something like "Tagoma has now powered-up to beyond Freeza-sama's level when we revived him" or "[...]beyond those Super Saiyans". In Cell Arc, after merging with Kami and training in the Room of Spirit and Time, Piccolo has surpassed Super Saiyans and Cyborgs that could easily defeat Freeza, yes. Boo Arc doesn't touch on the subject, but all that stuff seems to be overlooked in Dragon Ball-related material since 2008. Of course, these are just my current impressions. People can still think it makes sense Piccolo offering help to defeat someone at Zarbon's level or that person easily deflecting Base Gohan's ki blasts.

That isn't the only definition of statement. When Vegeta destroyed the punching machine, he made a statement of strength and/or annoyance. No words were needed.
Sorbet could have said all those things, but he didn't. Doesn't prove that's the ceiling of Tagoma. Afterwards he pummels Piccolo, which raises the ceiling. Doesn't mean Piccolo is the best he can do. The thing, is your making assumptions that aren't supported. I'm also making assumptions but mine are backed and don't have to discredit the whole manga that preceded it.

[Lord Beerus]

1st form Freeza is just too OP. He will most likely beat an enraged ultimate Gohan.

Considering the drastic inflation in strength for... well... damn near every major character we've seen so far in Super, Freeza will most likely defeat Ultimate Gohan just like how he defeated him in Resurrection F.

[buutenks]

First form freeza above mystic gohan from the buu saga?Sounds iffy.Would be cool,but i somehow doubt it.Stronger than rof gohan,sure why not,hes gotten allot weaker.

[Draconic]

Feats always take precedence over statements. Tagoma beats a fighter stronger than Namek Freeza, he is above Freeza. Sorbet's statement is not wrong anyway, since Tagoma is stronger than the Ginyu Force anyway. He doesn't know the power of either the Androids, Cell or Buu (who he has knowledge of, but doesn't know his actual strength) so the next thing that could come to someone's mind, outside of Freeza himself is Ginyu.

He also doesn't know Freeza's power after ressurecting him, since all the scouters blew up. To Sorbet's knowledge, Freeza was the strongest guy back then, and Tagoma being strong to Perfect Cell levels means nothing to him, as he doesn't know who that is and Freeza is stronger anyway. Ginyu was the second strongest on Namek by a lot. Tagoma surpassing him would seem amazing to someone who doesn't know about all these beings and who doesn't know how much Freeza grew trough training.

Tagoma's power makes complete sense. Sorbet's statement is correct. The iffy thing is about Gohan's power and how he is stronger than Piccolo in base (which really hasn't been demonstrated, since he was knocked out in the same way as him by Tagoma). Super Saiyan Gohan however being so strong can be explained as Gohan regaining his lost power.

The previews for the next episode say that Gohan will rage boost after Piccolo's scrifice, which gives him a power that his body can't handle, which might be a power above even his Mystic form. It has to be at least as big as SSJ3 to be felt across the Universe.

My opinion on Gohan: his base kept some of the power from the ritual, his SSJ level is now as strong as SSJ2 against Perfect Cell and the rage boost next episode puts him to his Buu saga power. This puts Tagoma at Perfect Cell level: enough to own Piccolo, but be nothing for SSJ Gohan.

Last thing: saying that using Z's power levels don't work for Super is bullshit. Super is a continuation. It's not a spin off, a reboot or anything of the kind. The two follow the same story and logic. Please people, don't use that argument. It's just silly.

[ZombieVito]

My opinion on Gohan: his base kept some of the power from the ritual, his SSJ level is now as strong as SSJ2 against Perfect Cell and the rage boost next episode puts him to his Buu saga power. This puts Tagoma at Perfect Cell level: enough to own Piccolo, but be nothing for SSJ Gohan.

Gohan says Tagoma is hiding Ki that might be on par with him at his best. As crazy as this sounds this puts Ginyu at Super Buu tier or higher.

[Draconic]

My opinion on Gohan: his base kept some of the power from the ritual, his SSJ level is now as strong as SSJ2 against Perfect Cell and the rage boost next episode puts him to his Buu saga power. This puts Tagoma at Perfect Cell level: enough to own Piccolo, but be nothing for SSJ Gohan.

Gohan says Tagoma is hiding Ki that might be on par with him at his best. As crazy as this sounds this puts Ginyu at Super Buu tier or higher.

His best doesn't mean his current best? Rage boost not included? That's how I took it.

[ekrolo2]

I think it's time to let go of Freeza's second and third forms. They don't exist anymore.

The only reason Freeza is in his "first form" is because he likes it. Not to mention he has spent most of his life in that form.

Plus they only made miniscule gains in strength. Especially given how much power Freeza could crank out in his fourth form in comparison to those.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What about Kuririn, Piccolo and Gohan considering Shisami a strong opponent, and in the movie, the Shisami vs. Piccolo fight?

That would just mean that Shisami got stronger during these 4 months as well. DBS Shisami appears to be weaker than FnF Shisami (since Gohan needed SS to one-shot him in FnF, while he was much stronger than him in base), so maybe the reason that he is stronger in FnF is because he was chosen as Freeza's sparring partner instead of Tagoma, who died in FnF.

It is also worth to note that in the original script of the movie from Toriyama, only Tagoma was stated to be on par with Zarbon & Dodoria. In the script, Freeza brought, along with his weak soldiers, mercenaries as well, who according to Toriyama were "troublesome", and Shisami was said to be the strongest warrior of the army. So it was, apparently, originally intended for Shisami to be a powerful mercenary that was recruited after Freeza's revival, not a soldier that was on par with Zarbon & Dodoria like Tagoma.

[Hugo Boss]

The thing, is your making assumptions that aren't supported. I'm also making assumptions but mine are backed and don't have to discredit the whole manga that preceded it.

The only difference in our assumptions is perspective, really. I don't think Dragon Ball Super shares the same continuity as the manga as most of people do, given that it makes reference to filler material. If you think the reasons I provided aren't enough, I guess it's okay.

Last thing: saying that using Z's power levels don't work for Super is bullshit. Super is a continuation. It's not a spin off, a reboot or anything of the kind. The two follow the same story and logic. Please people, don't use that argument. It's just silly.

I could say the same things with another words, like the others are doing. Being dismissive about other people opinions definetely isn't how I like to discuss and I couldn't do that even if I wanted. The powerlevel enthusiasts may not like or simply ignore the problems Dragon Ball Super has with some established facts since the very first episode, but if they can think of some elaborated theories trying to fix those issues then fine.

[RandomGuy96]

My opinion on Gohan: his base kept some of the power from the ritual, his SSJ level is now as strong as SSJ2 against Perfect Cell and the rage boost next episode puts him to his Buu saga power. This puts Tagoma at Perfect Cell level: enough to own Piccolo, but be nothing for SSJ Gohan.

Gohan says Tagoma is hiding Ki that might be on par with him at his best. As crazy as this sounds this puts Ginyu at Super Buu tier or higher.

Herms already told you this, but by his "best" Gohan meant his current best, not his lifetime best. And the statement was proven wrong anyway.